Posting here for further discussion: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-36/#comment-4379627
It is apparent procedures and even specific questions to us from those asking will vary from one “foreign financial institution” (better known as our local CANADIAN banks, credit unions, insurance companies, etc.) to another, not to mention one country to another. Sort of like our experiences at US Consulates around the world — not necessarily the same experience for one person than another!
KCam says
November 20, 2014 at 11:55 amJust following up on the RBC issue for anyone that is interested. RBC froze access to my new DI account until they see my CLN. They allowed the money to come in, but then froze it! They want this because they did not like that I answered positively to “born in the US” on one form and filled out a W8 Ben saying I am not a US citizen (because I relinquished prior to 1995 through government employment.)
So, I figured I’d give them a chance to resolve:
1. By not worrying about it because TFSAs and RRSPs are not reportable and that is what I ahve in the account, or
2. By allowing me to provide “reasonable explanation” other than a CLN that explains why I am not a US citizen, and by showing that I am not required to have notified the state department of my renunciation because it occured prior to 1995.After several phone calls, the bank advises that they will not accept anything other than a CLN. Further, while RRSPs and TFSAs are not reportable, their policy is collect the paperwork regardless. This means my only option is to liquidate or transfer my account to have access to manage my funds prior to receiving a CLN.
Does anyone have experience with a Canadian FI that would not hold this same policy?
…(Further) it is a registered account and was a transfer from another FI. They accepted the transfer with the paperwork provided, then froze it. They will only allow me to transfer or withdraw but can not manage the funds within it.
George comments to @WhatAmI,
“Still, to refuse to hold registered accounts without a CLN is a BAD sign.”
Its not a “bad sign” rather its Ultra Vires and unlawful discrimination.
Everything needs to be documented in writing and the firm needs to be first advised they will be taken to Court if they do not change and if they fail to change be taken to Court.
Note I am assuming this is FATCA related and not Registration S related of the Securities Act which is another kettle of fish.
MORE from US_Foreign_Person and George:
@KCam, I fully agree with @USFP “I would resolve the situation with them… once the account is *unfrozen* then I would close it up & go elsewhere…”
You have no future with RBC DI but that should not stop you from getting everything in writing first. You then find another FI.
You said that you verbally told them you relinquished when you took Canadian employment. Well to be brutally honest if I was a RBC DI employee, that statement alone would not move me at all. First, how the hell am I to know that working for the Canadian Government is potentially expatriating under 8 US Code IF there is intent?
You need to put in writing what exactly you did with lots of corroborating documents, when you did it with lots of corroborating documents, you need to cite US Law as it applied at the time with footnotes and copies, you then need to cite the requirements under Canadian Law with footnotes and copies. All your documents will need to be certified by a notary/lawyer as true and correct. You will also need to swear an affidavit that you in fact relinquished.
And then send it to them special delivery so someone is on the hook signing for it.
Having received all that they need to do something and you need to demand it in writing if they call you on the phone.
If they reject your thorough well documented “reasonable explanation” then you have their written response in which you can take legal action in Canadian Court.
But again, “I am not a US Citizen because I worked for the Government” over the phone to a customer service rep is not going to float far.
I did the above for a EU FI and received a written reply thanking me for the information and that my file would be updated within seven business days.
AND, from George…
@All, this with @KCam is a perfect example as to why asking place of birth which is Ultra Vires according to the CRA website, is causing discrimination to Canadian ONLY Citizens who have relinquished their clinging US Citizenship and further said Canadian ONLY Citizen is being further discriminated against based on a second Ultra Vires action requiring a CLN instead of a reasonable explanation which is a valid cure option under Canadian Law and in the IGA.
From Anne Frank:
@KCAM and others: It would be useful for people to all attempt to maintain a consistent approach to these problems and to be firm.
1. Nothing in C-31 or the guidelines produced by CRA authorizes a bank to request place of birth nor obliges any customer to provide it. It seems to me that there is little chance to argue that they cannot demand new accounts self-certify that they are not US Persons, but there is no obligation to go behind that assertion nor any explicit blessing in C-31 or the IGA to authorize personal inquiries such as that. I would suggest that any and all can take the view that no FI can demand place of birth or parentage and all should refuse it on principle.
2. If RBC is refusing to allow access to a TFSA or RRSP on the basis of a misguided demand for a CLN, it is time somebody made a complaint to their regulator (OSFI – Office of the Superintendent of Financial Instutiions) with a copy to the Privacy Commissioner and the Human Rights Commission. All relevant addresses etc. can be obtained in 30 seconds on Google. That will escalate the situation in a hurry.
The IGA requires NOTHING in the case of registered accounts to begin with, and their “practice” is an unsanctioned violation of your right to privacy and none of their business. Secondly, the IGA only speaks of the FI obtaining a CLN or “reasonable explanation” for the lack of one. If you state that you relinquished before 1995 when there was no shred of a requirement for a CLN, I can see no reason why they should reject that explanation out of hand as failing to meet the standard. To the contrary, it strikes me as eminently reasonable: you lost your citizenship in accordance with US law at the time and from and after that minute, the US had no rights in you whatsover. A subsequent (tax code) requirement for CLN’s mattered no more to you than changes to zoning laws in Beijing – none of your affair. Remember – the IGA made asking for a CLN or reasonable explanation purely optional. The FI was only excused for NOT turning someone over if they had that explanation but under the IGA as drafted they could ALWAYS turn in a suspected US Person just in case with impunity. Bill C-31 (to Canada’s limited credit) REQUIRED FI’s to engage in that back checking. As a result, “reasonable explanation” is not merely limited to the whim of a compliance officer at RBC. You have rights in what that means as well. It will mean what it is interpreted to mean by the courts, by Human Rights Commissions, by OSFI (their regulator) etc. If you feel up to it, you can and should push back.
UPDATE 21 NOVEMBER 2014
“What will they do if you do not provide YOUR Certificate of Loss of Nationality?”
George says:
“Well the issue has been addressed in the EU (Netherlands). The Netherlands Banking Association issued specific guidance for a standard form used by all FIs. It covers not having a CLN and what needs to be “demonstrated by the client (reasonable explanation)”
ENG_FATCA Guidance Dutch self-certification form natural persons
Subscribing…
Whether one has a CLN or not, a credit union seems to be a much better option for any type of account. Make sure the credit union is either fully exempt or local client based FFI for FATCA reporting status.
Please see the following link from Maple Sandbox:
http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/are-other-canadian-credit-unions-being-as-responsible-about-fatca-as-vancity/comment-page-3/#comment-188730
We need volunteers to do provinces other then BC to check CU FATCA reporting status. Someone please consider investigating CU’s in your home province.
@calgary411
Thank u… wanted to have Anne Frank’s statement moved over… important to read so people can pursue their rights… legally above the law suit filed
@KC
@Anne Frank has given u some very good info…. Since the US gov’t is using our own gov’t to hunt us down… U are in a good position to use our own gov’t to fight back for this kind of over reach… Its time to show the banks or investment firms… we will not sit still in taking this abuse… we have rights…. u use our money to fund your business then side step our rights because u are now part of the US by turning over your own country people… traitors… make their lives as difficult as u can for all the anxiety & worry u are having over this situation… what next… they will want dna to keep on file just in case the US decides it wants it, too.
RBC is definitely going way overboard in this case. I agree that complaints and lawsuits are in order here. I removed accounts from RBC before July 2014 FATCA deadline.
TD and RBC are the first two on my list of Canadian banks to not do business with. They both need to decide whether they are Canadian banks or US banks.
Well had an interesting dinner the other night, my wife’s friend and her friend’s hubby. Turns out he is a big wig at AUS/NZ bank here. We got talking FATCA and he went on for about an hour how it’s the most unbelievable thing they’ve had to deal with. He claimed all banks were against it but then the government mandated it, also it seemed to go deeper than the mere 30% withholding for noncompliance. He said they would be “blacklisted completely” and unable to do any business with US entities, so they had no choice but to do as they are told and it’s costing them millions to be compliant. Masses of employees involved, training sessions, new processes and procedures, new risk management, etc etc. I told him I’m with two banks and they will not tell me my FATCA stance. He said one way around this is to contact them and ask what your nationality is listed as on your account settings. I made progress here. Looks like at this point I am not being wrongly tagged as a US citizen in NZ banking (I have a CLN)
bank 1:
We do not have your nationality loaded under your personal details. The only time we would have these details is if your passport was loaded under your identification information, but currently we only have your driver’s license loaded. (I created my acct with a NZ drivers license)
bank 2:
We do not hold what your nationality is on file. We only record where you’re a citizen of, your account records show you’re a New Zealand citizen.
—-
That being said it looks like NZ banks will be sending out FATCA notices to all kiwis to be signed. I was worried they would have me flagged as US nationality and it would be a huge ordeal to get it resolved. At least it is one less thing to worry about. I have a CLN but do not want my personal data given to any foreign state.
“What will they do if you do not provide YOUR Certificate of Loss of Nationality?”
Well the issue has been addressed in the EU (Netherlands). The Netherlands Banking Association issued specific guidance for a standard form used by all FIs. It covers not having a CLN and what needs to be “demonstrated by the client (reasonable explanation)”
Google
ENG_FATCA Guidance Dutch self-certification form natural persons
Download the PDF and save it as it is likely to disappear very very soon
Go to page 9
—–
A United States citizen (by birth or following naturalization) can renounce or lose American nationality by:
1) acquiring a nationality other than the American nationality after having reached the age of 18; or
2) making an oath, promise or other formal declaration of loyalty to another state (or part thereof) after having reached the age of 18; or
3) joining or serving in the army of another state if:
a) these armed forces are involved in hostilities towards the United States; or
b) these persons serve as commissioned or non-commissioned officers; or
4) a) accepting employment of and being employed by the government of another state (or part thereof) after having reached the age of 18 and thereby acquiring now or in the future the nationality of the other state; or
b) accepting employment of and being employed by the government of another state (or part thereof) after having reached the age of 18 and while this office, post or this employment requires an oath, promise or another declaration of loyalty; or
5) formally renouncing nationality before a diplomatic or consular official of the United States in a different state; or
6) submitting a formal deed renouncing nationality in the United States; or
7) convicted of committing high treason against or of an armed attempt to overthrow or of armed resistance against the United States.
If none of the above reasons or circumstances can be demonstrated by the client (reasonable explanation), this means that the client has not renounced his/her citizenship and the client must be designated as a U.S. Person.
The banks know who supports them in a court case against them regarding Fatca. Our plan is to get a CLN from John’s printing service and if the this government wants to sue me in court, I’ll be right here. I NEED to protect my family against this and when the banks are allowed to be above human rights laws, so am I. Let the court cases and games begin!
The IGA (and therefore the banks) talk about producing a CLN, but nowhere have I seen it specified who or what entity must issue that CLN. A notarized self-declaration would fit the bill as far as I can tell. Or maybe the Conservative Party should start issuing them; they’re the ones that created this mess. I’ll have to run that one by my MP (or not, the guy’s an idiot).
maz57, the netherlands discusses alternative documents
Google
ENG_FATCA Guidance Dutch self-certification form natural persons
Download the PDF and save it as it is likely to disappear very very soon
Go to page 9
As a client of RBC and a dual Canadian and U.S. citizen with an appointment to renounce the U.S. part next March, I’m desperately trying to follow what all this means to me and my family but the alphabet soup is getting me down. Maybe I didn’t go back far enough to see what the original incident was. Can someone fill me in or provide a link?
Subscribing
subscribing again…
@maz57 TD has already decided it wants to be a US bank. They now have more branches in the US than in Canada. Even the little envelopes they use to give Canadian cash in say “Making your U.S. banking easier.
TD Canada Trust’s website indicates they will only accept a CLN. They do not have any indication I was born in the US and I am leaving (after 33 years as a Canada Trust customer) before they ask the question. I have signed all the documents needed to transfer my accounts to a credit union that has made it clear they do not care where I was born.
According to http://www.td.com/fatca/.
I went in to the RBC recently to see the account manager about a side financial issue but took my CLN as I wanted to ask her about my citizenship status on my customer profile. She “knew” why I was asking and proceeded to check my various account – nothing listed. We then proceeded to discuss FATCA which she regarded as a cash grab and a nightmare and grossly unfair. She advised to only use your driver’s license and SIN card as ID should you want to open an account anywhere – she knows I also bank at the local credit union and that is a good choice. This is a don’t ask – don’t tell situation and everyone is happy.
CarolCanada,
Thanks so much for the account of your recent experience with RBC (different than that of RBC DI discussed). Wish we could all DEPEND on the same experience with RBC as yours! This comment will buoy up others — thanks for answering the question as it applied to you.
@Blaze. Those little cash envelopes really should say “making your Canadian banking harder”, LOL. Many years ago I was a happy customer of Canada Trust. After they were gobbled up by TD I closed my accounts a month later because of confusion, lousy service, and incompetence. Haven’t been back since. Maybe Brock should start a “banks to stay away from” section over in the right sidebar.
@CarolCanada. Lower level bank employees will be rightfully outraged by the application of FATCA in Canada once they understand what it means to their fellow citizens. If they are a true-blue Canadian they will look for ways to meet the letter of FATCA while undermining it’s spirit, i.e. help their customers “FATCA proof” themselves and their accounts. Sort of like a union “work to rule” scenario.
My FATCA letter from Scotiabank arrived today and you can view it at http://non-fatca-banks.com/letter.html
Page 5 is hilarious: Do you take regular trips to USA and do you agree to notify Scotiabank if you become a US Person? YES or NO.
What does NO mean? You don’t take such trips or you don’t agree to notify Scotiabank? BTW my Gain Savings account I opened twenty years ago in Ottawa is WAY below any reporting thresholds but they sent me the letter anyway.
“This is a don’t ask – don’t tell situation and everyone is happy.”
Everyone is happy? ROTFL! This website does not give the impression that everyone is happy.
@George
I have uploaded the ENG_FATCA Guidance Dutch self-certification form natural persons and am adding it to the body of the post.
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | Hong Kong bank tells U.S.-born customers to download & fill out a Certificate of Loss of Nationality
@Moderators, URGENT….
Please kill the link that Tom did for Scotia Bank. He has exposed his personal information as in his real information.
He might not realize what he did.
Blaze, from your TD link….this sounds more favorable;
“I was born in the U.S., but have lived outside the U.S. my whole life. How does FATCA impact me?
Generally, if you were born in the U.S., you are considered a U.S. person. However, there are circumstances where an individual born in the U.S. is not considered a U.S. person, including those who have renounced their U.S. citizenship and have obtained a Certificate of Loss of Nationality issued by the United States Department of State or in a manner that meets the requirements prescribed by U.S. law. “
@George:
John Hancock wasn’t worried when he signed the Declaration of Independence in large handwriting so George III would not have to put his spectacles on.
I just logged onto the Scotiabank server and asked why they sent me the forms when FATCA-related legislation only applies to accounts meeting the 50,000 USD threshold, which mine does not; and whether they will be reporting my account. This should be good.