34 thoughts on “From @WSJperfinance and @SaundersWSJ report renunciations continue at record pace”

1. @ Glen Roberts
   Very happy to hear the renunciation process was easy-breezy for you. My husband relinquished rather than renounced (no fee at least) but thanks to the timing of his consulate appointment we ended up driving 200 km though a ground blizzard and having to pay for 2 nights in a motel to get the deed done. But done it was and my husband is very relieved to have that precious CLN. Now on the other end of the ease spectrum is the case of Ken O’Keefe. (Some people revile him but I respect him.) He tried 3 times to renounce but the USA would not let him go (it was a punishment thing) and there may be no other person on earth who wants to be rid of his “Made in the USA” tattoo more than Ken.
   http ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ckd3orvDeE (replace the colon)

2. The video is helpful for those who have a fear of the actual renunciation experience. Some U.S. tax legal firms now even have services to help someone with that fear through the process.

   I think the thing most are fearful of regarding renunciation of their U.S. citizenship is all of the related compliance paperwork, penalties and, especially, the costs for legal and/or accounting professional help to complete — or the ability to correctly be able to do that oneself.

   Glen Roberts, did you comply with any of the back filing (if you were not compliant before your renunciation) or are you able to get by with just the CLN for your banking and investing, retirement planning, etc. where you now reside?

   As I commented http://www.cnbc.com/id/102141113#comment-1664767005

   For some it is easy to renounce so they might heed the advice, Just Renounce. There are many others for whom the actual process is not the problem. It is the cost associated with that ‘simple’ actual renunciation at a U.S. Consulate or U.S. Embassy somewhere around the world. For others, they CANNOT renounce — they are ENTRAPPED by some ‘mental incapacity’. As I said in my comment to Mr. Roberts, there are other dimensions, http://www.cnbc.com/id/102141113#comment-1664767005

   In the case of “Accidental Americans” they are “US-defined” dual citizens, having had no choice (or CLAIM to that citizenship) as adults (AND with “requisite mental capacity”). They had no choice where or to whom they were born – they returned to their and their parents’ own country with their Canadian (or other country) parents as infants or children.

   For U.S. citizenship to be just for these U.S.-defined “dual citizens”, they should have had a CLAIM (and LAPSE of that possibility if not claimed), ESPECIALLY that the U.S. practices citizenship-based taxation and these persons had no control of the CBT consequences of their U.S.-defined U.S. citizenship in their own country (Canada) that practices residence-based taxation (RBT).

   The same unfair consequence is true for children born to U.S. parent(s) in Canada, their birth never having been registered with the U.S. (although that matters not a wit for some!); they never having lived in the U.S.; they never having had any benefit from the U.S. – only the consequence of, again, U.S.-defined U.S. citizenship in their own country that practices residence-based taxation.

   With the CONSEQUENCE of U.S. citizenship-based taxation, to be morally fair and not ENTRAPMENT, it should only have been a CLAIM to U.S. citizenship or LAPSE of that possibility if not claimed. If the U.S. practiced residence-based taxation as of the rest of the world (save Eritrea), these persons would not have these unjust consequences of U.S. citizenship bestowed upon them without their choice, without their consent, without their claim to such, given the facts.

   I’ll ask my question again to Glen Roberts: Can you tell me just how the “entrapped” (by some mental incapacity for which they will not understand the concept and consequences of renunciation — and a parent, a guardian or a trustee unable to act on their behalf, even with a court order) persons shall ‘just renounce’ and get on with their lives? An answer would help my family and many others. To sensitive me, you sound like Conservative MP’s who heckled my family’s situation and immaturely interrupted a speaker to cry JUST RENOUNCE in the Canadian Parliament!

   [ A note that, different indicated in Mr. Roberts’ useful video of the renunciation experience, most renunciations are done in only one appointment these days, formerly most required two appointments. It is getting the appointment that is the first barrier, then the price of renunciation for many people. ]

3. The reason the Consul gave here for the two appointments was to give someone time to realize the consequencies. I think basically that if one was told the the serious nature and thought about it for a week and then returned they were doing it voluntarily (ie: it was an attempt to change subjective question, “is this person acting voluntarily?” into something with an objective answer: they came in two, a week or more apart). I replied that I though that anyone who arrived at the Embassy to renounce would have considered it quite a bit ahead of time. He agreed, but also said, that maybe someone would come in “drunk” or the like.

   The only scheduling issue here was finding a day when someone who could do it was in. After my first attempt to schedule via their online system, I left them to schedule it for me and that worked out well.

   As far as the tax issues relative to renouncing (or not), those I believe carry the complex issues, fears and costs. The complex issues, fears and costs exist for all Americans. Those who are not compliant and don’t renounce, really have very similar costs to become complaint as those who also renounce. On difference is that by not renouncing the obligations will be ongoing (ie: each future year will incur the need to file another set of returns). I do also realize that 8859 will be more complicated for “rich” people, or those who are not complaint at the moment they renounced.

   I have lived outside the USA for close to 12 years and always did my best to be compliant. I went through an audit one year which seemed focused on the foreign earned income credit. In the end they sent me a bill which wasn’t very big in comparison to what I had paid in taxes that year. They never told me what it was for.

   I disagree with the author of the CNBC article with respect to his suggesting that people effectuate change via voting and lobbying. I believe those are simply traps to keep people caught up in the drama of the politics and not provide a venue for viable change. The one thing we can change is ourselves.

   The accidental Americans are a class of people who should have the opportunity to resolve the issue is a quick, efficient, cost free manner. ie: They should simply be able to renounce with a quick signature and the result being as if they never we an American. No questions. No taxes. No fees. Unfortunately, I see no way for that to happen without some kind of political action or lawsuit.

   Of course who’s affairs are managed by a trustee or guardian should not have their options limited. However, the State Department considers it a “personal” decision. For example, 7 FAM 1200 APPENDIX G
   POSTHUMOUS LOSS OF NATIONALITY:

   The latter caveat notwithstanding, in instances when a finding of loss has
   not been made prior to a U.S. citizen’s death, the Bureau of Consular
   Affairs, Directorate of Overseas Citizens, Office of American Citizens
   Services and Crisis Management (CA/OCS/ACS) would be reluctant
   to approve a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) posthumously,
   and such approvals are in fact rare. Our reticence is due to the fact that
   we did not have, prior to death, an opportunity to ascertain from the
   concerned individual whether his/her commission of the statutory act
   of expatriation was done voluntarily with the intent to relinquish U.S.
   citizenship.

   and

   Finally, since citizenship is a status personal to the individual, absent
   written documentation from the deceased, CA/OCS/ACS would find
   it extremely difficult to approve a CLN predicated solely upon the
   statements of third parties with respect to the intentions of the
   deceased vis-à-vis his/her U.S. citizenship or with respect to alleged
   oral statements of the deceased.

   I don’t represent the State Department, or the United States and never have. I can’t speak for them, and based on my experiences in life don’t see that their objectives are other than self-serving. (I would add that the employees in the Consulate treated me and the process with respect). I can only offer my opinions and suggestions. The major portion of my adult life in the USA (almost 20 years worth) was in conflict with that Country.

   “IF” the United States did this or did that differently, the entire world may be a much different place. But the United States does what it does. It provides unique challenges (and opportunities) for each of us. To clarify my point, those are in afraid of the process, or afraid of life not being an American should just do it.

   With respect to those who are incapacitated, all Americans should be hanging their heads in shame over how their country is treating these people and we should do what is within our means to help them.

   What suggestions to you have for Americans and non-American that could help with respect to the accidental americans and those with some mental or other incapacity?

4. Glen Roberts,

   I disagree with the author of the CNBC article with respect to his suggesting that people effectuate change via voting and lobbying. I believe those are simply traps to keep people caught up in the drama of the politics and not provide a venue for viable change. The one thing we can change is ourselves.

   I agree with you wholeheartedly. Those of us who choose to renounce are very much affecting change — in a more concrete way than any voting or lobbying within the U.S. confines.

   What suggestions do you have for Americans and non-American that could help with respect to the accidential americans and those with some mental or other incapacity?

   For me, the only hope I see is litigation. That’s why I am a Director of and a monthly contributor to our Canadian challenge through Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty. Litigation, for me, is the only salve for the betrayal I have from both the U.S.A. and the country in which I chose to live in, become a citizen of and raise my family in that, without full due diligence, signed an intergovernmental agreement and legislated away the rights of me and my children (my son especially) which should be the very same as all others in our country. Persons here have also submitted a UN Human Rights Complaint (see upper right-hand corner link), for which receipt has yet to be acknowledged.

   We cannot be silent about what is happening and be able to look our (Accidental American) children in the eye. http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/

5. Glen Roberts,

   How does this report of renunciation in Paraguay compare to yours? http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/comment-page-18/#comment-3915316

   I live in Panama, and renounced in Paraguay on April 12, 2013. Part of the problem with the delay was the fault of the embassy in Paraguay. They don’t do many renouncement and I discovered much later that they did not send a copy to the US of my renouncement signed by the then-consul. FORTUNATELY, I asked for and received a copy at the time I renounced. Otherwise who knows what would have happened. However, the Paraguayan who worked there at the time and still does was very helpful. She speaks excellent English. I would choose to renounce there again.

6. My only frustration was with the original scheduling. After I put the scheduling in their hands (I said I was available any morning) that issue was resolved. I can easily walk to the Embassy and it is a nice walk assuming there is no rain and it is not 45C. It seems better to try and fit their schedule than for them to fit mine.

   The woman in charge of American Citizens Services in Asuncion was happy to use email to communicate with me. So there were no phone calls.

   She and the (then) Consul who I conducted the “interview” with were both professional and friendly. Most of the conservsation I had with the Consul didn’t relate to the process at all, but some of our experiences in South America. He greeted me with “I see life in MERCOSUR has been good to you”.

   He also printed a couple pages from the FAM related to being Stateless for me since I had/have no other nationality. We had a very discussion on that topic, but he didn’t present any attitude for or against my decision to renounce or become Stateless. Good natured would be how I would describe him. He left the consulate a few weeks after I renounced.

   The Oath signing was with the (then) Vice Consul and he was professional and down to business. He paused briefly before the Oath ceremony and said that he had to read me the “warning” document because although he knew the Consul had read it to me, he had to sign that he personally read it to me.

   I took the Oath, and then signed two copies of all the documents. They had me fill out a DS-4079 even though I was renouncing. I waited a bit and was then given my canceled passport and a signed and sealed copy of my CLN. 15 months later I was emailed and told I could bring back my CLN and get it approved stamp. At that time I was give one set of the originals that I had signed. So, now, I have a copy of the DS-4079, DS-4080, and DS-4081 with my original signature as well as the Vice Consul and the seal.

   Every couple of months I checked about the approval and was told there were delays in Washington, mainly due to limited staffing and a flood of renunciations in Europe due to FACTA. One of the early emails a couple months after my renunciation indicated that they didn’t have the necessary stamp and were in the process of getting it.

7. Thanks, Glen Roberts and Claire for your reports of renunciation experiences at the Paraguay U.S. Embassy. Yours will be useful additions to reports of others of their renunciation or relinquishment experiences at other consulates / embassies for the Consulate Report Directory that Pacifica maintains at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/. Your reports and Glen’s video will help others as they prepare for their expatriations!

8. Another ex-U.S. citizen in Uruguay seems to have made himself stateless recently. He posted his CLN on Twitter; looks like he had about a six-week turnaround time between swearing the Oath of Renunciation and and picking up his CLN at the consulate. (No word on how long he had to wait for an appointment in the first place)
   https://twitter.com/JaysonMinard/status/524218252118220800
   https://twitter.com/JaysonMinard/status/524238405253607424

9. Mr. Glen Roberts (commenter above) has a nice interview about renunciation over at The Daily Bell:
   http://www.thedailybell.com/exclusive-interviews/35873/Anthony-Wile-Glen-Roberts-Why-I-Renounced-My-Citizenship/