[We now have a NEW POST taking us up to February 1, 2015. This post will be retired from service.]
THE AUTUMN 2014 UPDATE
Dear Donors,
Together, we reached our goal of $100,000 to pay the November 1 legal bill 11 days ahead of schedule!
Thank you Canadian donors from coast to coast and our friends from around the world for your generosity, support and determination — and especially for not being afraid.
The name of our non-profit corporation is the “Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty.”
We were very deliberate in including in our name the word “sovereignty”, which forms a cornerstone of our Claims against the Government of Canada.
Canada and dozens of other countries throughout the world gave into a bully because their “leaders” were afraid of harm caused by a trading “partner” — and they gave their sovereignties away.
Help us convince by example the Leaders and Governments of all countries worldwide that they should return their sovereignties back to their Peoples.
Please continue to support our lawsuit.
“Alone we can do so little. Together we can do so much.” (Helen Keller)
— Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, and the ADCS-ADSC team
Chers donateurs,
Ensemble, nous avons atteint notre but d’amasser 100 000 $ pour payer notre facture légale du 1er novembre 11 jours d’avance !
Un gros merci à vous, donateurs canadiens, et à nos amis de tous les coins du monde pour votre grande générosité, soutien et détermination. Et surtout pour votre courage.
Le nom de notre organisme sans but lucratif est « l’Alliance pour la défense de la souveraineté canadienne ».
Nous avons choisi délibérément le mot « souveraineté » puisqu’il constitue la base fondamentale de nos revendications envers le gouvernement du Canada.
Le Canada et des dizaines d’autres pays se sont pliés devant l’intimidation des États-Unis parce que leurs « leaders » ont eu peur des menaces de notre « partenaire » commercial. Ils ont donc vendu leur souveraineté à rabais.
Aidez-nous à convaincre les dirigeants et les gouvernements de tous ces pays qu’ils se doivent de remettre leur souveraineté à leurs peuples.
S’il vous plaît, continuez à soutenir notre cause.
« Seuls, nous pouvons faire si peu. Ensemble, nous pouvons faire beaucoup. » (Helen Keller)
— Ginny, Gwen et toute l’équipe de l’ADCS-ADSC
DONATE to www.adcs-adsc.ca (ADSC en français).
“3. It surprises me that people like Eduardo Saverin and Tina Turner preferred to renounce US citizenship and pay the exit tax than to challenge CBT in court.”
Just imagine the headlines and media attacks Tina Turner would be dogged with if she were to sue! I’d have been far more more surprised if she HAD sued! The African-American community and Oprah fans adore her, so why annoy them by suing to overturn a policy championed by their beloved African-American president?
“Saverin and Turner both left the USA pre-FATCA and probably never had any intention of returning even without FATCA–and just wanted to avoid the complexities of US citizenship abroad which affords them no further benefit.”
Exactly. Just like us, they wanted to be rid of hassles of all the forms and demands of the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) and their steep penalties for failing to get it 100% right, plus be able to bank anywhere they actually wanted to live. The U.S. is the only country that imposes this extremely punitive regimen, and for the Brazil-born Saverin and for the rock star whose found love and a happy life in Europe, why continue to deal every year with FinCEN and their thugs?
The”Statue of Liberty’ should come down and be placed in storage until this whole mess is resolved. Freedom? There is no freedom! Immigrants beware, a tax slave you will be forever.
“…it is possible that one or more Canadian financial institutions will choose to go it alone and become FATCA compliant, in defiance of Canadian privacy legislation…”
Actually, the US law says they must obtain consent (whatever consent is required by the law of the non-IGA country) of the depositor and then report the account, and if the depositor won’t consent and disclosure is illegal under local law, then they must close the account. Investors must then open a new bank dealing only in Canadian dollars and doing business with no other banks except the Bank of Canada (which does not have GIIN and therefore, presumably does not have to worry about FATCA.) Without the costs of FATCA compliance that bank could offer better rates. Then they could open a branch in a non-IGA euro country such as Monaco and then offer EUR and CAD accounts in both Canada and Monaco. Any non-FATCA banks might have trouble offering USD accounts but why? Couldn’t they go ahead and lend USD to Canadian businesses that need to fill an international order? The factory would then convert the USD to CAD to pay workers while running the assembly line and then, when the international customer pays for the goods with USD the borrower deposits the cheque in a FATCA compliant Canadian bank, and pays off the loan. The difficulty would be writing official cheques against a New York bank.
@Jan
“Just imagine the headlines and media attacks Tina Turner would be dogged with if she were to sue! I’d have been far more more surprised if she HAD sued!”
On what basis would she sue? I assume she was IRS compliant–the wealthy usually are. It is the little people who are hurt by this.
I imagine her practical reasons for renouncing–beyond the fact that she remarried around the same time–have more to do with Switzerland than the USA. Suing to retain US citizenship wouldn’t change Swiss treatment of US persons. Given that Switzerland was singled out for especially heavy handed treatment by the USG, I don’t see Switzerland changing things any time soon, even if the lawsuits succeed.
@Dash You’re right about Switzerland and that even if Tina Turner retained her U.S. citizenship and the U.S. overturned CBT, there might not be any change of Swiss treatment of US persons. I was responding as to why Saverin or Turner didn’t challenge CBT in court (i.e. suing to challenge the constitutionality of the RBT law), and I agree with you that Turner had no reason to.
I disagree though, that it’s the “little people” who are hurt by this, although certainly a lot of them end up suffering the most. Yet even the rich and famous who live abroad for a long time sooner or later will find their US personhood a burden because they can no longer bank at Swiss banks or other favoured banks, they have huge penalties if they forget to report an account, their financial privacy is non-existent, they can’t but help inflict IRS hassles on their non-U.S. spouses and business partners, etc.
I believe the people who can most likely live with CBT and FATCA are short-term, working-class expats or graduate research students who rent their housing (presumably because they can still use a bank), acquire no savings accounts and no assets big enough to report to FinCEN, who still think of themselves first and foremost as Americans, and who return to the U.S.A. within a few years because they’re first and foremost Americans.
By the way, on the “External Resources” you can find Phil Hodgen’s blog. Hodgen deals with a lot of wealthy clientele seeking to expatriate from the U.S. because they find the I.R.S. demands burdensome, too.
@Jan
“Yet even the rich and famous who live abroad for a long time sooner or later will find their US personhood a burden because they can no longer bank at Swiss banks or other favoured banks, they have huge penalties if they forget to report an account, their financial privacy is non-existent, they can’t but help inflict IRS hassles on their non-U.S. spouses and business partners, etc.”
It is a burden but the wealthy–AFAIK–can manage the burden such that when the burden of US citizenship exceeds its benefits, they can give it up. The middle class, OTOH, have OMG moments. I guess I’m assuming that the wealthy have always had enough lawyers, etc, to avoid an OMG shock that a less affluent person might experience.
I believe it is a very good thing that people like Saverin and Turner haven’t sued. If they did, it would definitely be spun in the press that these are wealthy people who made their money in the US and now don’t want to pay taxes. That might not be entirely fair to Saverin and Turner but that’s how it would be portrayed and that wouldn’t be good for any litigation. It is better that this litigation be led by middle class people and/or those who have made most of their money outside the US.
@Jan
“Hodgen deals with a lot of wealthy clientele seeking to expatriate from the U.S. because they find the I.R.S. demands burdensome, too.”
Really? I looked at his blog and he seems to be dealing with middle class problems–at least several of the articles talked about specific numbers and we aren’t talking about Turner or Saverin level numbers here.
Hard to believe but there are people only now discovering FATCA and the chains that it is tying them up in when visiting their local bank. Spoke to a lady in some distress whose child is a signatory on her accounts here (for efficiency and succession purposes should something happen to the mother) whilst the child lives in the US. Of course these accounts (of the mother) were NOT reported to the FBAR system (by the daughter). Trouble ahead.
@nervousinvestor
This is why I’ve always maintained that FATCA affects at least some people south of the border just as much as it affects people in Canada. The daughter’s situation here could easily be my situation in a few years time–live in the USA, no clear job prospects in Canada, parents in Canada although not a signatory on their accounts at this time.
@nervousinvestor
BTW–did you direct the DAUGHTER to ADCS?
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
This effort needs more supporters who live stateside. That is a real shortage here.
@dash – I am directing the mother to brock and adcs (as I have tried to direct others). The conversation will take place further over several days …. the circumstances in a public round table setting were not conducive to going too far … many of the folks know that I have been anti FATCA for a long time now but have not yet taken me seriously … now they are running into the thing when visiting their banks when going about their ordinary business. This mother actually asked me about this.
Re nervousinvestor. Re: signatory on accounts. The person could put a big target on themselves and say that they messed up to the IRS (guess what would happen then?), or they could meet the 30 June 2015 deadline for 2014.
@JC and just pretend that the earlier years did not exist ? I just dont know … I see this as a triple level thing 1) Try as best possible to stop doing what is causing the problem (take the child off the account and find some non US Person to act as a Trustee in the interim (doubtless at cost and at risk of theft if the Trustee is not completely honest), 2) contribute to the legal efforts to declare FATCA unconstitutional both within and without the US and 3) try to minimize the damage already done … and that I just dont consider myself competent to deal with.
@Dash – There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the number of persons that are going to be injured by FATCA way exceed the numbers of US Persons living outside the US. The multitudes of Mexicans, Jamaicans, and other nationalities that have accounts on which children or grand children are signatories “in case” are HUGE. These people have no clue that the US residence or status of their children can cripple the families financially. There is massive fallout coming down the line as people become aware of these things.
@Dash – the other thing that I find that people are not aware of is that if they have financial accounts in the US then those (if reciprocity comes to fruition) will in due course be reported back to the home countries of the folks … and that in itself could initiate all sorts of problems … forex control contraventions, capital control contraventions and so on … or indeed raw extortion when criminal (or political?) groups get info on who has money in Miami or New York.
The entire concept of FATCA and the GATCA thing is wrong headed and sick ab initio and does not recognize the realities of people’s lives around the world nor even that the world is a dangerous place.
@nervousinvestor I would like to see more stories on IBS of the IRS levying fines etc. A premise of US taxation is self reporting. I like your suggestions 1 and 2. Another one is just find out what the reporting requires. If it is not your tax/income/assets than I may imagine that the compliance is less. Maybe more information needed here as to what is required.
I dont get why you all keep harping on about rich people. I am sure they have their OMG moments too. Even if it doesn’t ruin them- who wants to hand over 30-50% of what they own to a government they have nothing to do with? I have heard tales of people needing a lot of emotional support when they find out their hard earned money- no matter how wealthy they are- has to be handed over to a government they don`t feel really affiliated with. If you go by the rule that you have the same bills rich as when you are poor- you are wrong. Rich people have a lifestyle that costs them way more- starting with their heating bill and electricity. They have bigger bills and bigger responsibilities. And they don`t like facing having to possibly sell their home either because they cannot afford it anymore. Somebody who lives in a house for 800000$ will not want to move into a house worth 400000$. Just ask Tricia Moon how it feels to have your whatever taken away from you. Even somebody who had a once in a lifetime stroke of luck to win the power ball lottery doesn’t want to see it confiscated by a government they have no real ties to.
AT any rate- it is the principle here that is being fought against. And if it only attacked rich people it would still be a very bad principle. CBT is unfair – taxing nonresidents who get nothing out of it is unfair. Holding people hostage with a passport is unfair. Threatening with huge penalties is unconstitutional. Etc etc etc. If we make it only about the poor then I feel we have already lost our case because it should apply to everyone who is being thus abused.
Well said! Couldn’t agree more.
CBT and FATCA are grossly outrageous whether you are rich, poor or in between.
Unfortunately, the wealthy are not joining our legal battle where they could help us make a difference. Instead we have people like Embee sending in her pension cheque every month. Her twigs and others around the world are trying to build a dam against the rushing waters, but we need big branches or whole trees to assist.
Are there any wealthy branches out there who will help? If so, we need you now.
@Blaze, I am not wealthy but will continue to contribute as much as I can. We all really need to step it up!!
PLEASE EVERYONE LET’S GET ON THIS AND GET THIS MOVING NOW!!
Just got this in the email … dont know if folks care to watch … dont know if there will be any opportunity to protest FATCA BUT it might be interesting to hear what is going on in people’s heads. Warning … I am not a part of this production BUT the host presenter is a Jamaican who is a US resident CPA … I am not responsible for her opinions and do not share her interest in selling FATCA compliance.
_________________________________________________________________________
The text of the email is:
We will be having a discussion about FATCA tomorrow (note Sep 16) at 10.30 AM (note Jamaica Time which I believe is now 1 hour behind east coast time) so tune into http://www.digjamaica.com/fatca and watch – there will be a lot of interesting information that you should be aware of.
The suit was filed on Aug 11, the government was supposed to respond within 30 days, which was September 10.
Did they file a response or are we still waiting?
@Dash, Phil Hodgen deals with middle-class people, too, but his clientele does include wealthy people (which may not include any billionaires but certainly includes people that are far, far richer than the middle-class) including Middle Eastern clients as he writes here:
http://hodgen.com/im-quoted-about-expatriation/
//hodgen.com/why-people-renounce-u-s-citizenship-for-estate-tax-reasons/
He also travels to that region now and then which you’ll see if you do a search on “Saudi” or “Dubai” or on his site: http://hodgen.com
Let me try that link again:
http://hodgen.com/why-people-renounce-u-s-citizenship-for-estate-tax-reasons/