[We now have a NEW POST taking us up to February 1, 2015. This post will be retired from service.]
THE AUTUMN 2014 UPDATE
Dear Donors,
Together, we reached our goal of $100,000 to pay the November 1 legal bill 11 days ahead of schedule!
Thank you Canadian donors from coast to coast and our friends from around the world for your generosity, support and determination — and especially for not being afraid.
The name of our non-profit corporation is the “Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty.”
We were very deliberate in including in our name the word “sovereignty”, which forms a cornerstone of our Claims against the Government of Canada.
Canada and dozens of other countries throughout the world gave into a bully because their “leaders” were afraid of harm caused by a trading “partner” — and they gave their sovereignties away.
Help us convince by example the Leaders and Governments of all countries worldwide that they should return their sovereignties back to their Peoples.
Please continue to support our lawsuit.
“Alone we can do so little. Together we can do so much.” (Helen Keller)
— Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, and the ADCS-ADSC team
Chers donateurs,
Ensemble, nous avons atteint notre but d’amasser 100 000 $ pour payer notre facture légale du 1er novembre 11 jours d’avance !
Un gros merci à vous, donateurs canadiens, et à nos amis de tous les coins du monde pour votre grande générosité, soutien et détermination. Et surtout pour votre courage.
Le nom de notre organisme sans but lucratif est « l’Alliance pour la défense de la souveraineté canadienne ».
Nous avons choisi délibérément le mot « souveraineté » puisqu’il constitue la base fondamentale de nos revendications envers le gouvernement du Canada.
Le Canada et des dizaines d’autres pays se sont pliés devant l’intimidation des États-Unis parce que leurs « leaders » ont eu peur des menaces de notre « partenaire » commercial. Ils ont donc vendu leur souveraineté à rabais.
Aidez-nous à convaincre les dirigeants et les gouvernements de tous ces pays qu’ils se doivent de remettre leur souveraineté à leurs peuples.
S’il vous plaît, continuez à soutenir notre cause.
« Seuls, nous pouvons faire si peu. Ensemble, nous pouvons faire beaucoup. » (Helen Keller)
— Ginny, Gwen et toute l’équipe de l’ADCS-ADSC
DONATE to www.adcs-adsc.ca (ADSC en français).
I told him that Canada is my home.
@pacifica777
So the 117,000 number in Canada is probably roughly comparable to the 50,000 in the UK with a US place of birth who do NOT identify as American. So the numbers in Canada are more than double that in the UK.
“when they have grounds for suspecting that they are [a US person]”
Can you point me to where in C-31 it says this?
At least when it comes to a US place of birth what I read C-31 as saying is this:
“Unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth”
This doesn’t sound to me like the bank is authorized to act on mere suspicion–the bank needs to have unambiguous grounds for knowing that the person is in fact born in the U.S. Am I reading it wrong?
@ George
“A U.S. passport is the most valuable travel and identity document in the world because it identifies the bearer as a U.S. citizen/non-citizen U.S. national.”
From 7 FAM 1300
They should have this instead: “A U.S. Certified Loss of Nationality (CLN) is the most valuable travel and identity document in the world because it identifies the bearer as a NON U.S. citizen.
@North49, you brightened my day with that. BRAVO BRAVO………
I must be honest and say that I don’t think ANY country’s passport–and I include both the US and Canada in this regard–is the best possible ID document. Using a passport as ID tends to attract various kinds of suspicion. If you show a foreign passport, it attracts suspicion because you are a foreigner. If you show a local passport, it attracts suspicion because people wonder whether you actually live in the country. And showing any passport at all as basic ID attracts suspicion that maybe you aren’t showing a DL because the latter was lost due to a prior DUI.
Passports tend to attract suspicion when used as basic ID. As far back as 2001 (pre 9/11 and long pre FATCA) showing a Canadian passport attracted great suspicion when trying to open a Canadian bank account–it was indeed treated more like it was something for lining the gerbil cage. Indeed pre 9/11 I actually had more success opening US bank accounts with a Canadian passport than opening Canadian bank accounts.
@ northof49
Absolutely! My husband was bursting with pride when he became a Canadian citizen so it’s probably that certificate he treasures the most of all. He values his CLN far more than he ever did his US passport which was just the means to get easily into the USA to visit his elderly mother before she passed away. He has a highly secure resting place for his CLN and will only use a copy if/when he goes over the border to Mordor. The border computers supposedly have it on file so there’s no need to risk the original.
Amusing:
“CNN Tells American Travellers How To Pretend To Be Canadian
The Huffington Post Canada 07/02/13 10:32 AM ET
Canada has the best reputation in the world, so perhaps it shouldn’t come as a surprise that we’ve got some admirers. But national plagiarism? Isn’t that going a little far?
Not according to CNN, which published a piece for Canada Day on Monday titled “How to pretend you’re Canadian when you travel.”
The story argues that even though the Bush years are over, Canadians still often get better service when travelling abroad.”
More:
http://huff.to/12Cl0yN
@Stephen Kish
Kudos to you for your respectful and restrained response to the person in the bar.
I think if we want to win significant support stateside there needs to be respect towards those in the USA. And I presume you personally do care about winning such support stateside, there would be no reason to make the trip to Chicago to meet the Republicans Overseas folks in the first place.
I do think the message also needs to be gotten out there somehow that FATCA and CBT attack, among others, many whose home has NEVER been the USA–the many so-called accidental Americans.
There are fantastic bloggers on the IBS website, however, it’s likely a professional fundraiser who has a vested interest in getting FATCA before the Canadian Supreme Court is need.
FATCA is bit like this quote:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me
FATCA has to be seen as a Canadian problem not just a US citizen problem.
I hate to say but if I was Stephen Harper looking at those numbers I would say that I’ve won.
Indeed when I move back to Europe soon I’m going to look into a European Court of Justice challenge using some EU member State’s legal aid.
Having said all that this fight is win-able. Would you have to resort to lawyers who have a vested interest to alleviate the costs? Out of the supposed 1M affected people there must be people out there with the necessary expertise who would volunteer their time not just their cash.
@Stephen Kish “Last night went to a bar and the subject of U.S. IRS place-of-birth taxes on US people abroad happened to come up. The Homelander response was that I should just “come ‘home’”.
I wish you could have seen my face with the uncontrollable laughter at that comment.
An article in the Financial Post talks about FATCA and refers to all you “American/Canadians” with the follwoing, “It will make their stay all that much more enjoyable.”
Yes, you are referred to not as a fellow Canadian and your time in Canada is only, yes only, a “stay.”
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/28/investment-trouble-brewing-for-u-s-dual-citizens-living-in-canada/
@north of 49-I agree with you 197% my CLN is one of the 3x most valuable piece of paper I will ever have after my UK passport and marriage certificate…… thank you for your inspirational comment and turning round the “border Mordor” doublespeak…. and reading about the DoS computer crash on 20 july 2014 has my jaw hanging open and thanking the Great Person Upstairs that I got my CLN already….
@George
‘Yes, you are referred to not as a fellow Canadian and your time in Canada is only, yes only, a “stay.”’
To be honest I got that attitude from Canadians long before FATCA and long before I became a US citizen or even a GC holder. For a long, long time I wanted to move back to Canada and it took me a long time to realize that I was never going to be welcomed back to Canada to live but would always be “just visiting”. I can relate to Michael Ignatieff’s frustrations. Some–including some on here even–have played the “just visiting” card with Chrystia Freeland too.
@Don
“however, it’s likely a professional fundraiser who has a vested interest in getting FATCA before the Canadian Supreme Court is need”
I don’t think money is the biggest problem here. Yes a sustained effort is needed but the money seems to be coming in at a rate sufficient to meet the needed targets. I personally will make my next donation on my next payday next week.
As long as there is no reduction in the rate of donations, I would see getting the lawsuit actually filed as the next important hurdle. Any news on that? Any hope on getting the lawsuit filed well in advance of Nov 1? I think getting the lawsuit filed would be a big plus in insuring that donations don’t slow down.
@Dash ” I think getting the lawsuit filed would be a big plus in insuring that donations don’t slow down.”
That will be powerful tonic just getting it filed. It will also be free advertising that should help with further support.
This is a great analysis, George. It brings home the insanity of the situation where people could be trapped in an unwanted ´US person´ status, with no access to financial services and hounded by the IRS for decades. Possibly, this problem was not foreseen by politicians and bureaucrats in either the US or the rest of the world but now that folks are opting to opt out in droves, local governments need to pressure the US to come up with a solution. Perhaps the argument could me made that the US has a legal obligation to ensure speedy renunciations in the same way that those accused of criminal offenses are guaranteed a timely trial
@George
I wasn’t able to comment directly at the financialpost article as comments seem to be closed now.
It is interesting, though, that some at that article seemed to be suggesting the TN visa as a way to benefit from working in the USA for awhile without getting caught in the FATCA web. It is true that on a TN visa–unlike a green card or US citizenship–you terminate your tax connection with the US automatically in the year you leave without having to go through any complex expatriation procedures.
But the TN visa is a dead end, professionally and personally, unless you only intend to work a few years in the USA for the purpose of saving up some money and have a clear path back to Canada, both professionally and personally. When I was on a TN, I thought I had a clear path back to Canada–but it turns out I really didn’t. Canadians in Canada viewed me as having burned my bridges back to Canada even though I didn’t realize it at the time.
With the TN it is hard to get promoted professionally because it is tied to a particular very limited set of job occupations. When a US company hires a Canadian (or other foreigner) on a work visa, they tend to see them as being a hired gun limited to one role and they aren’t a good candidate for promotions. And there are limits to the TN when it comes to personal life as well: if you marry a US citizen, you can’t renew the TN any more and have to switch to a green card.
Is there any way to get some sort of an injunction to half FACTA while the court decides its outcome? If the court challenge does take a few years, most people affected by FACTA will already have had their information turned over to the IRS. Even if a court challenge is successful years down the road, the majority of people will already be screwed.
@Bdwight, I do not think that MPs in Canada or the UK considered who was affected and how many. The truth is tens of thousands Canadian and British Citizens are affected.
With respect to getting rid of clinging Canadian or British Citizenship, its simple, cheap and done by post.
An MP in either country should have asked how the US will be able to guarantee speedy process so those that want nothing to do with the US can get out.
What could they have done?
1.) The US could have signed the 1930 Convention on Nationality and that would have been a big fix. If a Canadian resident in Canada is just that a Canadian, then there is no FATCA problem because a Canadian resident in the US is and remains the intended FATCA target.
2.) Streamline the renouncing process and make it 100% mail order.
3.) There should be NO approval required for a renouncing!! If done at a Consulate, they should date stamp and give it back to way, done finished. Renouncing should be “approved” at the consulate on the spot.
@bdwight
“Possibly, this problem was not foreseen by politicians and bureaucrats in either the US or the rest of the world but now that folks are opting to opt out in droves, local governments need to pressure the US to come up with a solution.”
The thing is that even if everyone who would potentially be caught by FATCA truly was a fat cat tax evader, the idea that every other nation in the world had an obligation to stop everything they were doing and assist–at their own expense–just one nation (the USA) to catch its tax evaders is ridiculous.
Even the stated official purpose of FATCA is an absolutely ludicrous proposition.
@George
“I do not think that MPs in Canada or the UK considered who was affected and how many.”
It is hard to excuse or even understand the MPs behavior on those grounds. Even if the MPs truly believed the official US line that this is mainly about catching a few fatcat tax evaders, it is still a ludicrous proposition to hand over sovereignty on that basis.
@Phil
“If the court challenge does take a few years, most people affected by FACTA will already have had their information turned over to the IRS.”
This is why people must as individuals show the courage now that they expect the courts to show years in the future–and the MPs and the banks have failed to show.
People must refuse to allow themselves to be identified as US persons–no one who has taken any kind of oath to the Queen, or who was born in Canada, should feel any qualms about doing so. They must refuse to hand over money to the IRS. They should refuse to answer questions about birthplace.
People need to be resisting this as individuals–not taking the attitude that they will obey US law until the courts give them permission to follow Canadian law instead.
@Phil
But yes–it’s true that an injunction will make it easier for people to resist individually. I think there was a post on here saying that an injunction was being considered but it was up to Mr. Arvay whether to take that strategy–and no decision has been made or at least announced on here.
Thank you for the follow up. I hope whomever speaks with the lawyers asks about this. Because even if we win the case years down the road, if 99% of us have our info turned over in the time being, a favorable court decision would be somewhat pointless, it would be too late to help the vast majority of people affected by FACTA now.
@Phil The government basically has things set up here in Canada in favor of the government. I mean, really, how can someone stand up to a government that committed TREASON against it’s own citizens, when that person or the people have to pay for it themselves? This had got to stop and stop dam soon. We see bloodshed in other countries where this was the system and people are fed up. Canada is on a breaking point here and it won’t take much for the people to take action. My advice to anyone scared of the injustice that the Canadian government is unleashing on them, well, simple. Protect yourself any way you can. It is clear our government is now an enemy and cannot be trusted period. We will have to protect ourselves for the time being. Until this is defeated in court, we are left to protect ourselves. Unfortunately, that is the way it is for now….