[We now have a NEW POST taking us up to February 1, 2015. This post will be retired from service.]
THE AUTUMN 2014 UPDATE
Dear Donors,
Together, we reached our goal of $100,000 to pay the November 1 legal bill 11 days ahead of schedule!
Thank you Canadian donors from coast to coast and our friends from around the world for your generosity, support and determination — and especially for not being afraid.
The name of our non-profit corporation is the “Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty.”
We were very deliberate in including in our name the word “sovereignty”, which forms a cornerstone of our Claims against the Government of Canada.
Canada and dozens of other countries throughout the world gave into a bully because their “leaders” were afraid of harm caused by a trading “partner” — and they gave their sovereignties away.
Help us convince by example the Leaders and Governments of all countries worldwide that they should return their sovereignties back to their Peoples.
Please continue to support our lawsuit.
“Alone we can do so little. Together we can do so much.” (Helen Keller)
— Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, and the ADCS-ADSC team
Chers donateurs,
Ensemble, nous avons atteint notre but d’amasser 100 000 $ pour payer notre facture légale du 1er novembre 11 jours d’avance !
Un gros merci à vous, donateurs canadiens, et à nos amis de tous les coins du monde pour votre grande générosité, soutien et détermination. Et surtout pour votre courage.
Le nom de notre organisme sans but lucratif est « l’Alliance pour la défense de la souveraineté canadienne ».
Nous avons choisi délibérément le mot « souveraineté » puisqu’il constitue la base fondamentale de nos revendications envers le gouvernement du Canada.
Le Canada et des dizaines d’autres pays se sont pliés devant l’intimidation des États-Unis parce que leurs « leaders » ont eu peur des menaces de notre « partenaire » commercial. Ils ont donc vendu leur souveraineté à rabais.
Aidez-nous à convaincre les dirigeants et les gouvernements de tous ces pays qu’ils se doivent de remettre leur souveraineté à leurs peuples.
S’il vous plaît, continuez à soutenir notre cause.
« Seuls, nous pouvons faire si peu. Ensemble, nous pouvons faire beaucoup. » (Helen Keller)
— Ginny, Gwen et toute l’équipe de l’ADCS-ADSC
DONATE to www.adcs-adsc.ca (ADSC en français).
Just curious–no one needs to specifically out themselves but I’m trying to get a sense of how many people have been willing to do at an individual level what they seem to be expecting the banks or the Canadian government to do for them–which is to defy the US government in areas where they have no jurisdiction.
My impression on here is that the vast, vast majority–perhaps not everyone–is jumping through the hoops demanded by the USG to become compliant w the IRS and to renounce. They may be doing so with anger but they are still complying.
What is the point of a lawsuit if everyone (or almost everyone) will have complied with the IRS long before the lawsuit gets resolved? There’s no hope of a Canadian lawsuit actually getting money back from the IRS after it has been paid so the only value of the lawsuit is if people are willing to stand up to the IRS in the interim.
@Dash1729. Ok you might hide and not say that you are a USP, yet the US has something called the NSA – all knowing entity with lots of info. Then there is some risk – that on top of FBAR and 8938 penalty there could be FATCA penalty – and risk that the Canadian government CRA will hand over information to the IRS – and that is not barred in the Canadian-US tax treaty.
In your last post you categorize everyone becoming compliant with plan to renounce. I don’t believe that this is true. I believe that there is a big group – most – don’t know about what is in the works. Someone said on the post that of 60 people asked 1 knows of reporting requirements. They are in for a surprise. Another group know but perhaps can not afford to comply. I see a number here who have renounced yet are still carrying on the battle as they are really upset about what they had to do. Then there are those who are complying and are getting a bit annoyed at the changes in the past few years such as 8938 and taxing pension funds. There is another group from various countries (just look at the countries listed on the initial signatures of the Human Rights Complaint) that are quite hopeful of successn od ADCS in Canada as there are far fewer Americans in their countries and the resistance is much lower as a result. There are victims here of state sponsored terrorism. Then the U.S. laws could always change for the worse. Advance ADCS!
I’ve complied with the US IRS entirely by dipping into retirement funds to pay US tax lawyers and accountants. It turned out that I owed the US taxes on the Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan I am the Holder of for my son’s benefit, who must start collecting benefits from that by the time he turns 60. That was minimal and of little consequence (other than my son’s RDSP contributions come from Canadian taxpayers and it is their money going to the IRS) compared to the year-after-year cost of US tax and reporting compliance, which would quickly deplete what I have saved for my retirement and what I will leave for my children, giving me some peace of mind now that my son’s needs will be looked after when I am no longer here. Since my son would have no greater mental capacity to enable him to register with the US to receive a SSN, so he could then submit back tax returns and reports than he would be able to renounce his *supposed* US citizenship with no help allowed or influence by anyone as a parent, a guardian or a trustee does not have that right says the US, I am defying on his behalf — and on behalf of other such families whose family members with some mental incapacity would be absurdly entrapped into a US citizenship. My family and my son will not be the only ones so affected. I know I’ll not get a penny back from the IRS or the US tax compliance industry. The purpose of the lawsuit, to me, is to stop the obscene injustice of all of this, regain rights waived by the Canadian government’s implementation of the US FATCA IGA, thereby putting the financial institutions before individuals and families who are being criminalized! I’m in for that just as I’m on this blog, hoping people learn from all of the stupid mistakes I made along the way — I don’t want others to make those same mistakes. It’s about people getting their lives back, along with their dignity and their mental and physical health and to stop the the handing over to the US a good portion of what they’ve saved for their retirements. It is about wanting Canada to remain a sovereign country, not taken over by the USA. It’s about what I think is right and not wanting to silently stand by and let this happen. It’s because I believe in free speech and don’t want to be shamed into not speaking out, at this point especially for other families who have a family member with some developmental disability or some other ‘mental incapacity’.
I hope not. And, I don’t think so. I do think so-called *US Persons* are mostly underground and not stepping forward to help in FEAR of what it will mean for themselves and their families — OR they just don’t yet know OR are in denial about. I don’t think many will look kindly to rolling over in compliance to the US — with the help of the government of this country.
Again, I hope not — even if I may just be a naive dreamer.
@ Dash1729
Moi for one but nobody knows how many are watching from the shadows or how many simply aren’t aware of that big black FATCA cloud overhead. However, it amazes me in a very grateful way that those who are free and clear or on their way there are donating to ADCS too. It’s nice to know that as rotten as things are today, there are still good people seeking justice for the sake of justice.
@Dash1729. Who will make the determination – it will be the IRS especially if they find out later after the fact. It is part of treating Americans Abroad as tax evaders and trying to encourage compliance with a big penalty. It is nice if you live in the US that you are free from such penalties.
As mentioned for Canada the Canadian-US tax treaty says the CRA will not collect IRS debts. Yet a good question is how it will be done in other countries. I believe the whole plan is in trial phase with the IRS hoping to bring global “foreign financial institutions” into compliance, phasing it in over the next few years. These questions about collecting the 30% were kind of lost in the details as the countries of the world were quickly forced to comply with FATCA even bypassing the privacy and discrimination laws of there own countries.
@JC
“I believe that there is a big group – most – don’t know about what is in the works.”
Yes most don’t know. But as they find out they seem to be bending over rather than taking a more defiant position. Very few people seem to be taking a defiant position voluntarily although there are some who are forced into a noncompliant position because compliance is not an option for them for various reasons. I’m hoping we’ll see some plaintiffs come forward who will be willing to say–yes, I could comply, but I won’t, because it’s wrong. Maybe those folks do need to keep a low profile for now and that is understood.
BTW paying big $$$ to US tax lawyers and accountants is still playing ball by the IRS’ rules at least to an extent because those lawyers and accountants themselves pay US tax–so you are still ultimately putting money in the hands of the IRS.
“Who will make the determination – it will be the IRS especially if they find out later after the fact.”
I’m sorry but I don’t follow this at all. The only way for the IRS to get involved would be for the FFI to tell the CRA and then the IRS. So if the IRS is involved then the determination that they are a US person has ALREADY been made–which means it wasn’t the IRS who initially made that determination.
So I repeat the question: someone opens a bank account in Canada. Let’s say the bank doesn’t specifically ask about a US birthplace, but the person does present some US indicia. The person claims they are not a US person. The bank suspects they are. Who makes the final determination and how is it made? In some countries the banks are just closing accounts but I don’t get the sense that that is happening in Canada–but I’m wondering how exactly this typically plays out.
To my mind, the main point of the lawsuit is to test the strength of Canada’s Charter rights. If the Charter can simply be over-ridden when needs must then it is clearly not worth much. I’m also quite sure that many other countries that have signed IGAs have had to set aside their banking and privacy laws in order to comply with FATCA’s demands so perhaps a legal victory in Canada could help others reassert their rights.
I’m hoping the legal landscape looks a lot different 4 or 5 years from now (when the case might be decided) but, if FATCA is still around, and the case is won, I’m fearful that the government of the day – and the people of Canada – will have a huge problem namely, how to comply with the court’s verdict while still preserving the viability of Canada’s banks, insurance companies, investment dealers etc. Many of these institutions are global in nature and they could not exist in their present form if the USG designates them as non-compliant. I hope there are some creative people around then to deal with this eventuality!
@bdwight
“To my mind, the main point of the lawsuit is to test the strength of Canada’s Charter rights.”
The courts have already started to rein in Harper’s assaults on the Charter. I’ve also donated–although not as much as to ADCS–to another effort, a lawsuit fighting for the rights of Canadian expats to vote after 5 years abroad. As a long term Canadian expat that one more directly affects me. The initial ruling was favorable for the rights of expats to vote, and the judge has refused to stay the ruling. This means that, although there will be inevitable appeals, expats can vote in any byelection–or the next general election if that comes before the case is resolved–pending a final decision.
I personally, however, did not wait for the Courts to tell me whether I can vote. Stephen Harper said I couldn’t vote. Stephen Harper can cram it up his you-know-where. I voted anyways.
“I’m fearful that the government of the day – and the people of Canada – will have a huge problem namely, how to comply with the court’s verdict while still preserving the viability of Canada’s banks, insurance companies, investment dealers etc.”
Yes, this one is bigger than the voting issue, because there is money involved. I’d be hopeful that by the time the Supreme Court of Canada actually rules, there will be some indications in advance as to what the final ruling might be, and a Plan B will be in place by then.
@Dash1729
**In some countries the banks are just closing accounts but I don’t get the sense that that is happening in Canada–but I’m wondering how exactly this typically plays out.**
I got a feeling if they feel u are a US person… account may or may not be closed but they will send your info to CRA to send… cause they prefer to be safe then sorry & figures its the clients issue… not their problem. The worse problem I see that majority of people don’t know about this… and 1st class citizens don’t realize… their info can be sent by accident also… wish people would use US person instead of US citizen… cause when they hear US citizen… they don’t realize crap that is happening can also effect them without them knowing even though they aren’t US citizens
@Dash
The purpose of this lawsuit, the upcoming formal complaint to an international human rights group, this blog (and others), numerous Twitter accounts, the Republicans Overseas lawsuit against FATCA, and other initiatives, is combat the injustice inflicted by the U.S. on it’s citizens abroad and the rest of the world.
There is no better or more noble justification than that.
I adopt the words of Edmund Burke when he wrote:
I concur with the sentiments of Calgary411 above (very eloquently put) in general and in particular the words:
@USCitizenAbroad
I don’t think justice can be achieved here solely through court action. There needs to be a spirit of defiance, not collaboration, in play at the individual level as well for the 4-5 years while one is awaiting court action. This is especially true since the Canadian courts cannot reverse that which is given to the IRS–money or data–after it has been given.
@US_Foreign_Person
So the scenario here would be that someone fills out a W-8BEN but their data gets passed on to the IRS anyways? Is there a mechanism for doing so? That’s actually especially scary because the W-8BEN specifically asserts that the account holder is NOT a US person. So if someone fills in a W-8BEN and their data still gets turned over to the IRS, does that mean they are also being accused of lying? In many cases they truly might not be lying.
@USCitizenAbroad, @calgary411
“to stop the the handing over to the US a good portion of what they’ve saved for their retirements.”
The only way to stop this is to refuse to hand over the money. The Canadian courts can be asked to back the decision of an individual Canadian to refuse to hand over the money but the decision must come from the individual Canadian.
Also it seems to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that everyone opening an account will need to fill out either a W-8BEN or a W-9. Both forms have the phrase “under penalties of perjury”. Is that perjury under US law? That phrase usually doesn’t appear on Canadian forms. Does this mean that everyone opening an account in Canada, including citizens of Canada alone, must subject themselves to US jurisdiction?
@USCitizenAbroad, @calgary411
“The only way to stop this is to refuse to hand over the money.”
Or rather–this is the only way to stop it from within Canada. The US legal action could and hopefully will stop CBT and/or the penalties associate w/FBAR. But all the Canadian courts can ever do is to back individual Canadians in choosing to defy the IRS.
Not to mention the fact that if everyone who has their OMG moment between now and Nov 1–instead of giving any more to the IRS–refuses to cooperate w/the IRS and instead chooses to give just 10% of what would have been extorted by the IRS to ADCS instead–this lawsuit would have absolutely no problems being fully funded.
@bdwight Here is a scenario – the ADSC challenge succeeds, and the Canadian IGA gets overturned. The Canadian government may then ask more time (indefinite time) to comply. Also, it would be a big lever to get the Canadian-US tax treaty renegotiated to remove the injustices of double taxation, over the top compliance, and over the top compliance penalties – to kind of trump FATCA and the Canadian IGA.
@Dash1729
“If someone claims they are not a USP who actually makes the final determination that they are?”
The banks – definitely – make the decision on reporting. They don’t have to make any “final determination” that someone is a USP; when they have grounds for suspecting that they are, and the person either 1) cannot prove that they aren’t or 2) doesn’t respond to the banks inquiries, they will report and/or withhold. They don’t have to prove anything at all. If they don’t report/withhold, they may be held liable for the 30%, which is a risk no bank wishes to take.
@Brockers, on another thread Innocente has done some incredible number crunching based on country specific census data. This inspired me to look at Census 2011 England/Wales and come up with some conclusions. My ending conclusion has specific application to Canada based on the politicians solution of “just renounce.”
From the UK Census 2011
Population England/Wales 56,075,912
Born in USofA 177,185
US Passport Holders 126,330
Number who “Identify themselves” as US Citizens: 119,229
From I think the IRS;
2011 number of returns from the United Kingdom 31,599
____
What does that indicate?
1.) One third of US born individuals in England and Wales do not have a valid US Passport and do not present themselves as as being US. The super super majority of these would not have a CLN as its simply impossible by the historical record.
2.) A very large percentage of US Passport holders in England and Wales do not file with the IRS.
3.) A significant number of 50,855 US born individuals in England and Wales carry a British or other non-US passport as their sole passport.
4.) Tens of thousands of good people are going to have an OMG moment.
It is likely that 119,229 who “Identify themselves” as US Citizens make up most of the US Passport Holders 126,330.
That means that around 50,855 neither identify themselves as US or carry a US Passport even though they were born in the USA. It is likely that they carry a UK Passport.
There were 31,599 tax returns filed from the UK. For discussion, assume they all came from England/Wales.
It is unlikely that those tax returns represent any of the 50,855 who even though they were born in the US neither carry a US Passport nor identify themselves as a US person. These persons want nothing to do with America and are not “going back.”
HM Government signed an IGA with the USA where the sole practical method of “fixing your problem” is to renounce and get a CLN.
IF the US Embassy in London processed two renouncement per hour, every working hour of every working day, it would take TEN YEARS to process those fifty thousand British Citizens.
As a condition of signing that agreement, HM Govcernement should have required a simplified manner in which those fifty thousand affected persons who want nothing to do with the USA to escape its talons.
A clarity moment is at hand that CBT absolutely can not work when relinquishment must be proven instead of the old way of being not the intent.
What is the lesson for Canada and the legal team? The Canadian Government had a duty to affected Canadian Citizens which number not 50,000 in England/Wales but likely in the upper six figures, so that they had an expedited method of renouncing.
What we have is the Canadian Government having unsigned the 1930 Convention on Nationality which would have helped people, not negotiating an opt out for at least Canadian Citizens and leaving them with the only path where at some point it may become impossible to get an appointment to renounce!!
This is not a tax problem it is a citizenship problem. And the citizenship is UNWANTED.
Attention Brockers!!! Want to raise your blood pressure? How many agree with this from the US Dept State?
“A U.S. passport is the most valuable travel and identity document in the world because it identifies the bearer as a U.S. citizen/non-citizen U.S. national.”
From 7 FAM 1300
—–
Yes, your Canadian Passport………lining for the gerbil cage. Ditto with my EU Passport. Well….at least in their eyes.
@George
Do you have comparable numbers for Canada as you have for the UK?
You seem to be saying that there are nearly 1 million Canadians who were born in the US but do not currently identify as US citizens. That number does seem a little high to me. I certainly believe that there are at least 1 million who are directly affected in that they are one flavour or another of “US person” but it would be good to get comparable numbers for Canada as to the UK.
@ Dash,
In the 2006 Canada census, approximately 117,000 persons identified themselves as both US-born and “Canadian citizen only.” Almost no one here seems to have even heard of a CLN prior to 2011. I don’t have the link to that census handy, though, as I’m not at home — can add it this evening.
That’s just US-born persons. Agree many, many more are directly affected by this due to having otherwise acquired US citizenship or “US personhood.”
—See Post above slightly updated with new amount needed by November 1. Thank you donors for having the faith that our lawsuit will happen.
So, what is the Homelander solution for us?
–Am in Chicago to meet this week with Republicans Overseas friends to compare notes on respective FATCA lawsuits.
Last night went to a bar and the subject of U.S. IRS place-of-birth taxes on US people abroad happened to come up. The Homelander response was that I should just “come ‘home'”.
Please donate to http://www.adcs-adsc.ca
Thanks, Stephen.
The shores of Puget Sound for both of us were once home. Calgary, AB is my home and where my kids were born and raised. I would be a fish out of the Bow River were I to land back onto a ferry in Puget Sound taking me to either Bremerton or Seattle, both of which I once lived in. As gorgeous as that area is and the fond memories I have of growing up there (and the smell of the salt water and the seafood that abounds there I so miss), I know where my home is (present tense).
That’s sort of like some sleazy Conservative MPs taunting in Canadian Parliament that my Canadian-born (to two US citizens) son who has a developmental disability should “Just Renounce”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANqVaEpRi_4.
Ditto: Please donate to http://www.adcs-adsc.ca.
@Stephen
And what did you say back to him? Did you stick needles in his eyes? When I get this response I just want to punch the person and I was (notice tense) a refined old lady before all of this. Look what this has done to me! I should bill the US government for treatment of my split personality disorder they induced.