This week I had a chat with a kind donor to our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit. She is a Canadian citizen who has lived in our country for more than four decades.
I asked her (as I now ask many) to predict what Canadians will do when the FATCA law identifies them and turns them over to a foreign country.
This Canadian told me how she will respond when her neighborhood bank turns her over to the United States Internal Revenue Service. She said:
“First time visitors to the “Isaac Brock” and “Maple Sandbox” websites are regularly advised to “Read, read, read before you take any action” when you discover that the IRS wants you.
Generally good advice, I would say, except that I would change the channel a bit and say “Read, read, read, and then take NO action“.
I would strongly urge people to read, read, read, and then take the time to live with the injustice, the absurdity, the absolute moral bankruptcy of FATCA before they commit themselves to any course of action.
Live with the feelings of unfairness and discrimination that surround FATCA; let the oppressiveness of the situation really take hold. Then take a deep breath, and another, let the fear subside, and then let the outrage and anger come forth and “Just say NO”.
We all know that the whole premise of FATCA (Citizenship-Based Taxation) is fundamentally wrong, so why do so many of us so readily agree to participate in a system that is “wrong”? Fear, anxiety, expediency, whatever?
When I am faced with a really complex situation that is impossible to figure out, and FATCA would be one of those, I try to pare things down to fundamental principles that let me see things more clearly. Really, in my mind, FATCA is no different from the scenario of the school yard bully.
The Harper Canadian Government should have stood up to the U.S. bully’s threat of sanctions and said “No”. It didn’t.
Canadian banks and financial institutions should have refused to become agents of the IRS. They didn’t.
Our Members of Parliament should have challenged the government to address issues of sovereignty, privacy, and equality of ALL Canadians. By and large, with a few notable exceptions, they didn’t.
So now it’s my turn; it’s my turn to stand up and say “No”. And I will.
I will refuse to fill out any “foreign” tax information forms, I will refuse to give my financial institutions any information on place of birth, and, if necessary, I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
I will refuse to let the bully play in my yard.
I realize that this is a course of action (or inaction) that might make some people feel uncomfortable. But, speaking personally, I feel much more uncomfortable being forced to do things that I know are wrong, and I know that FATCA is wrong.
It’s just wrong, plain and simple. So I’m not doing it.
I am now, and will remain, willfully non-compliant. End of story.”
Tnx Duke of Devon . . . that’s great to know. . . because all I am trying to ascertain is the “potential legal consequences” of signing a bank form that states I am not a U.S. person . . . not the “morality” of doing so.
Your question was just fine where it was posted, Sasha. Yes, that is the other post in which “lying” is discussed. My comment was: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/10/17/rahabs-renunciation-of-citizenship-was-she-a-harlot-liar-traitor-and-tax-cheat-or-a-heroine-of-faith/comment-page-2/#comment-3496472.
It drives me crazy when people equate lying with ‘bad’.
Financial privacy could equally be looked at with this same lens, which means that we have no right to financial privacy because having secrets = ‘bad’.
Lying is OK people, despite what you learned at school, at home and at church. Just do not do it to for personal gain at someone else’s expense (difficult to discern though that may be). Truth and lying are not mutually exclusive. Really!
In my opinion lying is not bad if it is serving to protect you from a bad law that someone made. It is so absurd and it directly violates the U.S. constitution. Full stop here.
Similarly, if someone made a law saying anyone with a blue passport has to jump out of window, heck, yeah I am going to deny and lie it to save my life.
@JimBeam,
Exactly!
@Sasha, @Brockers et al…….
No good will come from this business of lying or not lying for whatever reasons. Ultimately the truth is your ally.
Here are several scenarios and comments. If a person answers NO to the question they had better have a sound and logical reason for answering NO;
1. A landed immigrant resides in Canada and was admitted to Canada on a US Passport. This individual has no other citizenship. If this individual is presented with a form that asks “Are you a US Citizen?” they may only answer YES otherwise they are clearly lying.
There are many Brockers who will fall into this catagory and I have sympathy for them however, they are US Citizens and their government created a law applicable to its citizens. The most I can say is if you do not like their rules, you need to get rid of the blue book membership card.
2. A Canadian Citizen resident in Canada for whatever reason is a US Citizen under US Code and they dutifully renew their US Passport every ten years. If this individual is presented with a form that asks “Are you a US Citizen?” they may only answer YES otherwise they are clearly lying.
3. A Canadian Citizen resident in Canada became a Canadian Citizen with the intention of relinquishing US Citizenship under US Code. They do not have a CLN but they have not renewed their US Passport, nor voted in the US or done anything that a US Citizen would be entitled to do since they relinquished. If this individual is presented with a form that asks “Are you a US Citizen?” they may only answer NO otherwise they are clearly lying.
4. A Canadian Citizen resident in Canada became a Canadian Citizen at birth by descent from parents but themselves were born in the US. They have never had a US Passport, nor voted in the US or done anything that a US Citizen would be entitled to do since they relinquished. If this individual is presented with a form that asks “Are you a US Citizen?” they will answer that question based on dominant nationality, effective nationality and/or the master nationality rule.
I suspect this is the position of the two plaintiffs, they do not consider themselves to be citizens of a foreign country regardless of what said foreign country thinks of them.
Because of wide ranging nationality laws it is not uncommon for a person to have two, three or more possible nationalities. Just because some country calls you one of their own does not mean you have to agree outside their borders.
The answer to the question would be different if it was worded, “Does the US consider you a US Citizen?”
With that you might answer, Yes, NO, Do not know.
5. A landed immigrant resides in Canada and was admitted to Canada on a Irish Passport. This individual was born in the US but has never had a US Passport or exercised any trappings of US Citizenship. If this individual is presented with a form that asks “Are you a US Citizen?” they would answer it based on their understanding of dominant, effective nationality and the master nationality rule. Regardless, the Government of Canada under the immigration laws of Canada solely recognizes this person as Irish.
@George: The elephant in the room is “Were you born in the United States?”
Here is my comment from the “Rahab” thread:
George: I disagree with your conclusion about the situation you describe in your second point:
“2. A Canadian Citizen resident in Canada for whatever reason is a US Citizen under US Code and they dutifully renew their US Passport every ten years. If this individual is presented with a form that asks “Are you a US Citizen?” they may only answer YES otherwise they are clearly lying.”
I know someone in the exact situation that you describe. This person applied for a U.S. passport after being informed that he was required to use one to travel to the United States. The consular official who served him *volunteered* the information that while in the United States he would be considered *solely* a U.S. citizen and that the Canadian government could not help him if he were to get into trouble in the U.S. Conversely, while in Canada he would be considered *solely* a Canadian citizen and he could not claim a right to assistance from the U.S. Again, those words were spoken by a U.S. consular official.
Therefore, the person you describe in #2 would *not* be lying if, on the stand in a Canadian courtroom, he said he was not a U.S. citizen. You have said it yourself. You cannot be a citizen of two countries at the same time. The consular official effectively defined “dual citizenship” (that hated expression) as conferring a right to citizenship in a second country when and if you travel there.
@Steve
” when asked WHY the bank officials just say ‘the US made us do it’ full stop”
I’d like to see this fly in Canada. I would hope this would cause a journalist feeding frenzy and be part of the discussion at court.
@ George RE your “several scenarios and comments.”
These are really excellent points, especially your comment that “Just because some country calls you one of their own does not mean you have to agree outside their borders.” We DO NOT LIVE IN THE 51st STATE OF THEY USA (at least not yet) and just because the government of Canada (and others) have told their banks to become IRS spies doesn’t mean that we must be beholding to the USA as the total ruler of our lives.
I’m filling out all of my back taxes to come into compliance. The US system is extremely unfair. Let’s say you have a bad year. Just because you live overseas, you can’t get any of the WIC or EIC that they give to residents. —-But we still are expected to file, or else, receive a lot of threatening letters.
What’s worse, is the “Berlin Wall” everyone is talking about. Some of us are having to jerry rig bank accounts because some banks in the US won’t even accept wire transfers anymore. What a mess!
I’m hurridly trying to learn a 3rd language so I can apply for an EU passport and not be stuck with a just a 2nd world passport. I’m trying to do this before the US tells foreign governments that they can’t give passports to anyone with a US birthplace. Sounds crazy, but who would’ve ever there could be something like the FATCA or a $2400+ fee to renounce! Just that fee for reuncication compared to any other country on the planet is enough to make one sick!
I live a very happy life (not too financially well off), but this US-part of my life is definitely the unhappiest part of my life. Between the resident Americans thinking that we are all rich to being punished for living in a different country, to being treated like a criminal if you have a foreign bank account, it’s extremely depressing.
@ Blaze “Were you born in the United States” This is the question that we cannot lie about. We cannot prove otherwise if asked. Really, we are the group of people that cannot “fly under the radar” if this question is asked. It will even cause problems for those who have renounced.
@ George In a reasonable world your points would be applied and our governments would have supported them. Only the citizenship of the country you are in should be recognized within its borders. It is incomprehensible that Canada and other countries are aiding the US in their witch hunt. I hope our lawsuit proves to be a huge embarassment to them and more. Canada recognizes that some countries will not let you renounce and has warnings on its government website about travelling to such countries, mostly due to military “obligations”. The US has slammed the door on affordability for some to renounce. Maybe there will be future warnings about travelling to the US due to tax “obligations”.
@George
You’ve explained all the scenarios in which answering “no” is a lie, but neither you nor anyone else has outlined the possible consequences of lying, in Canada, to a Canadian financial institution. I’m not interested in the morality of it, but rather the practical implications of being caught. If you’re not morally okay with it, don’t do it, if you are morally okay with it, assess the risk; personally I’m just fine with lying if the risk is low and it makes the problem go away. I feel no allegiance to the US (I have the passport because I was given grief at the border and told to get one) and would not lose one wink of sleep if I had to tell an untruth to circumvent their stupid extraterritorial law.
Blaze
The place of birth question is the weak link in the Iva because it is clearly discriminatory
An Eu bank basically agreed with me on that and quickly said the question was optional
As I have said before a less obnoxious question would be do you have a valid us passport or do you vote in us elections
Carrying a valid us passport or voting in us elections is proof positive of being a us person but bring born in the us is not
Also questioning should stop if you certify you are Canadian resident in canada
Nononymous,
Shall we then say that it is every man / woman for himself / herself — just as we must make our own decisions about whether or not to expatriate a US citizenship, we must make our own well-reasoned decisions regarding justification of lying to save ourselves / our families? If that is the case, maybe we should then each go our own way. I think this needs to be decided for EVERY affected *US Person* Abroad. That is why we have the litigation. If we are all to go our own way and protect ourselves in whatever way possible, if it is not about all the others, just ourselves, then why would such expensive litigation be necessary?
I, personally, want it settled for us in the present and all others in the future. I want no *US Person* Abroad ‘left behind’. Then, if *US Persons* Abroad want to retain their US citizenship, they know the responsibilities and consequences of their own personal decision.
Although I never really thought about it before all of this, I personally NOW feel dual citizenship is dangerous and to what purpose if we decide to live our lives outside the USA. For those who will return to their homeland, it is a much different scenario. I want to be left alone in the country in which I have chosen to live. I will never forgive all of us being criminalized in the exceptionality of US citizenship-based taxation.
I do not consider my son a US citizen or I would have registered him as such. I do not consider Gwen or Ginny (or Kathleen or any other born there to Canadian parents but returned to Canada as children, living their lives since in Canada) US citizens because they do not consider themselves US citizens – it was not a choice that they made as adults with full mental capacity. Mind you, there may have been such persons born in the US in the same circumstances who do consider themselves US citizens and that is / should be their right with adult choice.
@Nononymous,
All lies are ‘bad’. Didn’t you learn that growing up? People like you and me, who choose to lie, regardless the situation and regardless of the negative consequences of telling the truth, are less moral than those who insist on absolute truth. Now, take some time to think about what is wrong with you for not feeling ‘bad’ about lying to your bank or to the IRS.
@Calgary411, re:
“Nononymous,
Shall we then say that it is every man / woman for himself / herself — just as we must make our own decisions about whether or not to expatriate a US citizenship, we must make our own well-reasoned decisions regarding justification of lying to save ourselves / our families? If that is the case, maybe we should then each go our own way”
Why should we ‘each go their own way’? I support ADCS, and have been a part of the grass roots fight against FATCA, from which this amazing organization sprung out of. However, if I am put in a situation where lying will save my ass, how does this mean I am going my own way? Is this an all or nothing thing? Are ‘absolute 100% always tell the truth people’ (who do not exist anyway) the only people who are morally just enough, to be ADCS supporters?
My point is we are being put in the position of HAVING TO LIE to protect ourselves and our families. That is bloody wrong. I am certainly not saying that we each go our own way. I am asking if we must each go our own way.
I do not consider my son a US citizen or I would have registered him as such. I do not consider Gwen or Ginny (or Kathleen or any other born there to Canadian parents but returned to Canada as children, living their lives since in Canada) US citizens because they do not consider themselves US citizens – it was not a choice that they made as adults with full mental capacity. Mind you, there may have been such persons born in the US in the same circumstances who do consider themselves US citizens and that is / should be their right with adult choice.
If lying is justifiable for the goose (*US Persons* like those above), is it justifiable for the gander (RESIDENT US Persons who deliberately send their untaxed funds to an offshore “tax haven”, which Flaherty said Canada is not)? And, I am not talking about those resident in the US on green cards who are just as entrapped by never being ‘educated’ of what the rules are and have been sending money back to help family in their own homelands. I’m not making a moral judgement on anyone — I understand the ‘need to lie’ in the circumstances we find ourselves! That we have been put in such a position is wrong. I want this to be fixed for everyone of us.
Whitekat
A person needs to put themselves in a position so they are not lying because you will get caught up in a lie
Pres fatca I thought it was a bad idea being an expatiate us citizen and not taking on your new homes nationalty
I fully understand calgarys position with her son. Regardless of us law she is stating that the master nationality rule trumps us law whilst her son is in Canada. Her son is solely Canadian and that is truthful. She also knows that the truth will change if he was to cross theborder because us law would trump.
I support the lawsuit and the campaign against FATCA and CBT and all the rest. And I also support lying to your bank if it reduces your risk of exposure to the US. These things are not mutually exclusive.
@George
Again, will someone outline possible consequences of lying about your birthplace or citizenship. What, exactly, does “get caught up in a lie” actually mean?
I suppose your bank could report you as “recalcitrant” and close your accounts. Oh well. Are you going to be hauled into court, or find yourself waking up in Gitmo? I doubt it. It would be grande if someone could provide an educated guess as to the practical consequences of your bank saying “we don’t believe you” when you self-certify untruthfully, or show them a clumsy forgery of a Canadian birth certificate.
…which is why I have made the decision never again to cross the US border to visit family there. And, I don’t want any work-around for my son It is NOT about my son. It is about all sons and all daughters in families the same as mine. I have accepted the fact that my family has less right to cross the US border than any other Canadian solely because of my decisions and the law that discriminates. I do not accept that my Canadian-born son should not have the same rights as any other Canadian because his parents were born in the US. I do not accept that those born in the US to Canadian parents but who returned to Canada as infants or children should not have the same rights as any other Canadian. I want ALL Canadians to have the same protection of Canadian laws and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I do not condone our discrimination by national origin.
Nonymuse
Lying to a bank will bring no good
A person needs to ask themselves what do they need to do so they are not lying to said bank
That path will be different for many people
Calgary
Taking what you just said
The IGA should have simply required a self certification of citizenship if not canadian
None of this indicate nonsense and expecting a person to be an expert on evolving us nstionalty laws
Once a person self certified as Canadian in Canada all questions should stop period
That still leaves the issue of being unable to travel to the Usa but the master makes his own rules on his plantation
It is interesting to see how a court may also see this and strike down the iga
@ Calgary411 Agreed this needs to be decided for everyone. Regardless of my decision of whether or not to enter the tax system and renounce, I will continue to support this legal action. There are others being hurt by this that cannot do anything about it, I will support them. Many are choosing to do the same. I hate that I may be put in a position that will require me to make a choice of whether or not to “lie” someday to avoid the consequences of FATCA. In Canada the US cannot force us to pay anything but if our information gets sent across the border there is a very real risk of identity theft. The US has been very sloppy in its protection of sensitive data and the problem is growing.
I do not consider myself to be a US citizen, I chose, at the adult age of 22, not to rush to the US Consulate to “claim” this citizenship, I rejected it, I made my choice as an adult. I had no desire to ever live in the US again so I had no need of their citizenship. The US will not recognize this rejection even though my actions so far support my decision. The US changed the law and my decision is not grounds for relinquishment. I am not as brave as Gwen and Ginny although my circumstances are the same.