This week I had a chat with a kind donor to our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit. She is a Canadian citizen who has lived in our country for more than four decades.
I asked her (as I now ask many) to predict what Canadians will do when the FATCA law identifies them and turns them over to a foreign country.
This Canadian told me how she will respond when her neighborhood bank turns her over to the United States Internal Revenue Service. She said:
“First time visitors to the “Isaac Brock” and “Maple Sandbox” websites are regularly advised to “Read, read, read before you take any action” when you discover that the IRS wants you.
Generally good advice, I would say, except that I would change the channel a bit and say “Read, read, read, and then take NO action“.
I would strongly urge people to read, read, read, and then take the time to live with the injustice, the absurdity, the absolute moral bankruptcy of FATCA before they commit themselves to any course of action.
Live with the feelings of unfairness and discrimination that surround FATCA; let the oppressiveness of the situation really take hold. Then take a deep breath, and another, let the fear subside, and then let the outrage and anger come forth and “Just say NO”.
We all know that the whole premise of FATCA (Citizenship-Based Taxation) is fundamentally wrong, so why do so many of us so readily agree to participate in a system that is “wrong”? Fear, anxiety, expediency, whatever?
When I am faced with a really complex situation that is impossible to figure out, and FATCA would be one of those, I try to pare things down to fundamental principles that let me see things more clearly. Really, in my mind, FATCA is no different from the scenario of the school yard bully.
The Harper Canadian Government should have stood up to the U.S. bully’s threat of sanctions and said “No”. It didn’t.
Canadian banks and financial institutions should have refused to become agents of the IRS. They didn’t.
Our Members of Parliament should have challenged the government to address issues of sovereignty, privacy, and equality of ALL Canadians. By and large, with a few notable exceptions, they didn’t.
So now it’s my turn; it’s my turn to stand up and say “No”. And I will.
I will refuse to fill out any “foreign” tax information forms, I will refuse to give my financial institutions any information on place of birth, and, if necessary, I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
I will refuse to let the bully play in my yard.
I realize that this is a course of action (or inaction) that might make some people feel uncomfortable. But, speaking personally, I feel much more uncomfortable being forced to do things that I know are wrong, and I know that FATCA is wrong.
It’s just wrong, plain and simple. So I’m not doing it.
I am now, and will remain, willfully non-compliant. End of story.”
@Bubblebustin
“Did I say that telling the truth with a clear conscience is psychopathic?”
No I didn’t and I never said that you did.
“What you’re saying is that the end justifies the means”
But I also never said that the end justifies the means.
I had to look at it this way — comply and hand over my entire savings to a foreign country (no taxes, all form penalties) or not comply and let that foreign country work damn hard to steal my entire savings from me (all legal, all taxes paid to my own country). I am not a citizen of that foreign country and I will never go there. It will be interesting to see how much effort and expense I’m worth to them.
@EmBee. Agreed. Wholeheartedly. I can’t believe that after 3 years, I’m still having moments of anxiety about all of this. I guess it’s time for another contribution… that has made me feel better in the past! At least I feel that I’m doing something about it and hopefully part of the solution (although anonymously!).
@sasha
No one knows WHAT will happen if all of this ends up in court. But there’s a good chance a reasonable judge or jury will be supportive of the Canadian fighting the IRS.
The person in court will be up on a number of charges. The judge/jury will determine guilt. When one of the charges is straight up perjury, they won’t have much choice but to convict on that charge, even if they say not guilty on the rest. It will look like ‘wire fraud’ or ‘mail fraud’ in court. It’s a really common legal gotcha.
@hellame
“When one of the charges is straight up perjury, they won’t have much choice but to convict on that charge, even if they say not guilty on the rest.”
I disagree, although not being a lawyer I cannot of course be 100% sure.
Let’s say someone claims–both in court under oath and in the documents where they have allegedly perjured themselves–that they are NOT a US person. For a court to convict them of perjury, the court has to make a factual determination that they are, in fact, a US person. No Canadian court is qualified to make that determination and hence they must be acquitted.
I had a conversation with Mark Mathews , a former deputy IRS commissioner and chief of the international C.I.D.
He told us on the phone that he was not permitted to advise us to disobey US law. He also said that whether or not to comply was a business decision, not a legal one or a moral one. Weigh the risks vs. costs and do what ‘s best. In other to words as my mother in law said ‘only lie if you have to’
So, if you are Canadian, living in Canada, you are subject to charges of perjury from the US if you lie on some Treasury or IRS form? Doubtful. Who would charge you on behalf of the US?
@hellame
“The person in court will be up on a number of charges.”
What would the “number of charges” be? The only possible charge could be perjury–because they otherwise clearly haven’t violated Canadian law. I suggest that they couldn’t even be convicted on that one charge but I’m not clear what other charges they could be charged with.
@Sally 1
Interesting and disturbing. In addition to their ignoring the $50k threshold, I don’t think that the place of issue of a third country passport is a legitimate US indicia for a bank to use under C-31.
@The Mom
I think the concern is that the person claims on a Canadian bank form that they are not a US person and is charged w/perjury under Canadian law. However–although I’m not a lawyer–I don’t see how this could actually happen because it would require a Canadian court to make a determination on US personhood beyond a reasonable doubt.
That’s why I’ve always considered the place of birth questions to be scarier because that is easier to prove.
@Duke of Devon
No I wouldn’t expect a US lawyer–Mark E. Matthews is a US lawyer–to be able to ethically advise someone to break US law.
The question is whether a Canadian lawyer can ethically advise someone to break US law assuming they won’t be breaking Canadian law by doing so.
Ahh, the truth. While I’m not a religious person, one venerable pop culture reference comes to mind:
Jesus:
I look for truth
And find that I get damned
Pilate:
What is truth?
Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths
Are mine the same as yours?
Questions to ponder.
All I know is that I am a Canadian citizen ONLY and have been for forty years. If the United States considers me to be American when I most certainly am not, then where is the correct measure of truth?
Let’s face it – in the world of today, truth is just another commodity to be manufactured, packaged and sold to a willfully ignorant populace. And no one on Earth does “truth” like the US Government.
I’m nearing the end of a two-week trip to Vietnam and writing this from my best friend’s apartment in Ho Chi Minh City, also known as Saigon. I believe I’m in a bit better position now to say I’ve learned a few things about America’s idea of truth.
Seeing thousands of B-52 bomb craters from the air stretching from Vietnam to Cambodia nearly half a century later, or the horrifying images of the second and third generations of Agent Orange victims are just a few visuals which will forevermore come to my mind whenever the topic of “truth” comes up again in relation to the US. Real truth endures long after the lies which spawn it.
Bravo to the woman cited in this post – may millions more join her at the front lines of our fight, guided by the light of genuine truth, for justice and liberty for all US Persons around the world.
Is telling your bank that you are a Canadian and a Canadian only a truth or a lie?
Dash. Sadly you miss my point. Between the lines he was telling us to ignore US law. A Canadian lawyer is duty bound to do what’s best for his client.
@Duke of Devon
Too bad the Harper government didn’t read between the lines when Mark Matthews came to Ottawa.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/26/a-response-from-john-weston-mp-on-fatca/
@Bubblebustin
“Is telling your bank that you are a Canadian and a Canadian only a truth or a lie?”
Each situation is different and I’m actually NOT advising anyone to lie.
However if–to give one example–someone relinquished (not renounced) US citizenship but never bothered to get a CLN, I believe they are telling the truth if they call themselves a Canadian and Canadian only.
@Duke of Devon
Sorry that I didn’t fully catch the nuances of your post.
However the ethical question remains: Can a Canadian lawyer ethically advise their client–openly and without having to speak “between the lines”–to disregard US law if (a) it doesn’t violate Canadian law and (b) it is the client’s best interests?
For what it’s worth – the forms I have seen in SE Asia are very comprehensive. They ask do you hold US citizenship or a Green card, were you born in the USA, how many days a year do you spend in the USA…it would not just be one lie, it would be a consistent pattern. Having said this, the forms are bank forms which if answered affirmative would lead to IRS forms……but in reality, if you have no US assets, what can the US really do to you? The bank can/will close your account, but it is far fetched you are going to be prosecuted for perjury if you both have nothing in the US and don’t to the US. Everyone has to make their own best decision as of July 1st 2014….
I’ve actually wondered about the legality of lying to a Canadian financial institution. (I have zero problem with the morality of it. If I can successfully lie to my bank to make FATCA go away, then that is simply a good thing, period.) What, actually, could one be charged with for incorrectly answering a simple self-certification form? (Is that really perjury?) What, actually, could one be charged with for using a forged birth certificate or CLN when opening an account? (More to the point, can anyone recommend a reliable source of fake documents – I’d like to order a north-of-the-border birth certificate.)
I have just two words for the US Government. One denotes a copulatory act, the other is “off”.
@Steve
Depending where u are in Asia… I have heard if u close the account… people were having problems opening new ones… seems that the US birth is big enough taint that the funds are not wanted… Almost impossible to find a local bank if u are in a large city since majority of the banks deal with alot with the US… Have a person I know… who told me when he opened an account a few yrs ago… they welcome him with open arms… now he can barely get any services other some very basic things… alot of the banks are doing this also…. very limited service to the US person or no service
Let’s see what happens when the world finds out the cost of raising revenue for USA
Spread the Word
Global cost of FATCA revealed:
#FATCA: A Taxing Law Made by a Whole Bunch of Zeroes
http://bit.ly/1yHS09P
Anyone out there with a CLN in hand who is willing to post a photo of it? Just curious to see what one looks like since I can get an appointment for months and my financial advisor is asking all those bad questions now!
This whole thing sounds like the way Hitler “enforced” his unjust laws on the people. Scare the people into being lawful and obey laws no matter how unjust they are. Go against human rights and just obey! We have all the proof we need to show how the Canadian government ignored the people and just allowed a foreign law to be enforced on Canadian people. I truly believe, we have plenty of evidence to show a judge that we are merely protecting ourselves from an attack from another country. We need to protect ourselves ad our government will not protect us because of pure political reasons period!. Do what you have to and protect yourselves.
I know it has been unpopular on this blog to mention Hitler and the Nazis in relation to our situation but I see that I will not be the first person to do so on this thread.
I was recently in Amsterdam and had occasion to visit the Anne Frank House. It was a very moving experience, to say the least, to walk through the front part of the building that housed the family business and then to go through the door, hidden by a bookcase, into the tiny, blacked-out rooms at the back of the house that hid two families for so long. While the Franks were in hiding, their friends and business associates supplied them with food and other necessities by buying extras here and there and smuggling it into their hiding place, careful to let no one catch on.
Can anyone tell me if not one of these people ever told a lie in order to preserve this family? One thing I do know. Someone who knew the family was hiding there eventually told the truth and one day the family was removed and sent to their deaths. Only the father survived. Which of these actions took the moral high ground, the truth or the lie?
I have just learned that under Canadian Law as amended a few years ago, that Canada considers me to be one of its own.
I have also learned that I can renounce said citizenship for no fee, other than a stamp.
If someone asks me my citizenship, I will tell them the citizenship that I have based on the passport that I entered the country that I now live in.
Just because Canada considers me Canadian, I do not hold myself out to be same.