This week I had a chat with a kind donor to our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit. She is a Canadian citizen who has lived in our country for more than four decades.
I asked her (as I now ask many) to predict what Canadians will do when the FATCA law identifies them and turns them over to a foreign country.
This Canadian told me how she will respond when her neighborhood bank turns her over to the United States Internal Revenue Service. She said:
“First time visitors to the “Isaac Brock” and “Maple Sandbox” websites are regularly advised to “Read, read, read before you take any action” when you discover that the IRS wants you.
Generally good advice, I would say, except that I would change the channel a bit and say “Read, read, read, and then take NO action“.
I would strongly urge people to read, read, read, and then take the time to live with the injustice, the absurdity, the absolute moral bankruptcy of FATCA before they commit themselves to any course of action.
Live with the feelings of unfairness and discrimination that surround FATCA; let the oppressiveness of the situation really take hold. Then take a deep breath, and another, let the fear subside, and then let the outrage and anger come forth and “Just say NO”.
We all know that the whole premise of FATCA (Citizenship-Based Taxation) is fundamentally wrong, so why do so many of us so readily agree to participate in a system that is “wrong”? Fear, anxiety, expediency, whatever?
When I am faced with a really complex situation that is impossible to figure out, and FATCA would be one of those, I try to pare things down to fundamental principles that let me see things more clearly. Really, in my mind, FATCA is no different from the scenario of the school yard bully.
The Harper Canadian Government should have stood up to the U.S. bully’s threat of sanctions and said “No”. It didn’t.
Canadian banks and financial institutions should have refused to become agents of the IRS. They didn’t.
Our Members of Parliament should have challenged the government to address issues of sovereignty, privacy, and equality of ALL Canadians. By and large, with a few notable exceptions, they didn’t.
So now it’s my turn; it’s my turn to stand up and say “No”. And I will.
I will refuse to fill out any “foreign” tax information forms, I will refuse to give my financial institutions any information on place of birth, and, if necessary, I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
I will refuse to let the bully play in my yard.
I realize that this is a course of action (or inaction) that might make some people feel uncomfortable. But, speaking personally, I feel much more uncomfortable being forced to do things that I know are wrong, and I know that FATCA is wrong.
It’s just wrong, plain and simple. So I’m not doing it.
I am now, and will remain, willfully non-compliant. End of story.”
Good for her!
Should the IRS come calling for me, I shall inform them that I decline their invitation to the dance. I spent about two years reading before my renunciation. I chose not to file tax returns, as a stay at home mother and wife. I did choose to complete the 8854, however, as at one point I thought I might like to continue to enter the US. Not any more.
I will say the 8854 also had a statement attached to explain why I had neither a SSN nor an ITIN. I couldn’t be bothered to get one because I don’t need one. That statement also contained some choice words for “America”. 😀
I am definitely of the crowd telling them to get stuffed. Literally.
I forgot to add, no FBARS, and the 8854 net worth statement (ridiculous for those born dual as they’re not supposed to be covered expats) was done on MY terms. Actual values, none of this mark to market BS. Lots of empty columns.
I lurk here a lot and follow along fairly religiously, I have also donated to the cause and will so again, but I don’t post much. But I must stand up and shout ‘BRAVO’ to this woman!
For three years now, I have mulled over my specific situation, and I’ve come to the same conclusion as this person. I am a Canadian citizen, dammit, and I have lived here for over 26 years. I have NOT lived and/or worked in the states since I was 22 years old… and I will not let the rules of some foreign government dictate how I live my life in my home country. My friends (some of them Canadian-only) who understand this situation say they will stand with me in solidarity when their banks ask them to complete whatever forms they present, asking about their ‘US personhood’ (we’ll see what really happens when that time comes). And I don’t plan to ever go to the US again. My family in the US is OK with this, they completely understand, and totally support me. As far as vacations go… well, there are much nicer places to visit that don’t involve any travel to the US.
Now I have some inkling how the ‘draft dodgers’ during the Vietnam-era felt.
My thought precisely. Just say no! After many nights of sleeplessness and anxiety and guilt about cheating on taxes (I’ve paid much to Canada for 35 years), I quit the fear and decided to support our lawsuit. Whatever the outcome I will still say no and I won’t ever vote Conservative in 2015 or in the future.
I took a similar course: was off the radar, hadn’t filed taxes since leaving the US (thought you didn’t have to if you didn’t owe anything — the way it is for US citizens!), renounced, filed no forms and maintain a ‘come at me bro’ attitude. Because I have no money, and nothing in the US for the IRS to seize.
But for the first time I’m moving from lurker to commenter to say this: DO NOT EVER LIE. The perjury charge will stick when nothing else will. I wouldn’t volunteer information but do not lie on a form and sign it, do not lie when asked questions directly. The lie is where they’ll get you.
I agree with hellame. Don’t lie. Avoid. Move your money to a credit union that is reasonably small. I felt I had to renounce as I had voted and registered my kids plus some other things. I managed to find a cheap accountant and all in all, I am satisfied that I took that path. However, how will the US ever track down so many people, many of whom have very few resources? It does not seem like a predictable outcome. I don’t know that I would come clear at this point. It is simply too expensive, invasive and ridiculous. It is also wrong.
So, Stephen, it looks like there ARE other Canadians who will be resisters and who are not just those nice little Canadians who will politely comply. I’m not the only one.
Personally, I draw my line at lying about any of my US status or reason why I feel my son (and others like him) should be deemed only Canadian (since never registered, never lived in the US, never had any benefit from the U.S.) and as so protected by Canadian laws as any other Canadian. I couldn’t lie and face my kids who I always told that honesty was that best policy. I’ve done enough to my kids by passing along the US taint to them, one of them “entrapped” by U.S. definition into automatic U.S. citizenship and the CBT consequences of that (no choice in the matter), with the audacity that he cannot renounce and I cannot do so on his behalf. If “they” come to get me (as I’ve been warned on this site) for speaking out for my Canadian-born son’s well being — it is me, not he, who will take the hit. And, I don’t mind continuing in reporting any such consequence in the media.
The IRS won’t come calling IMHO–except possibly for very wealthy Canadians (and probably most people in that category). However they will use the data to ambush people if/when they cross the border. That is the real threat that they wield.
@hellame
“The perjury charge will stick when nothing else will.”
The open question for me has always been whether a Canadian citizen describing themselves as a Canadian citizen ONLY while on Canadian soil can ever be considered to have committed perjury under Canadian law based solely on a US view that they are a US citizen/person.
If Argentina suddenly passed a law declaring all residents of the ‘Malvinas’ to be Argentinean citizens, there isn’t a chance in hell that the UK would consider a Falkland Islands resident to be committing perjury if they just ignored the Argentinian law and called themselves a Brit.
Of course place of birth questions are harder to get around.
@Steven — a wonderful piece:
Exactly my feelings on the matter, and exactly how I view myself: WILFULLY NON COMPLIANT, and proud of it! Thanks for posting that.
Hieronymus
I’m not in Canada, but live in one country and work in another (right over the border). Banks on both sides have sent me FATCA forms even though I updated my citizenship two years ago when I got my CLN. They ask point blank if you ‘were a citizen of the US or no longer’ and then I had to resupply documentation to prove it, or they’d close my accounts.
MAN did I just want to lie and say ‘never American’…it infuriates me that I’m even asked for this, it’s no one’s freaking business. But mortgages mean banks, so I had to do it. 🙁
But I agree with you, Dash. If I had to do this as a Canadian with ‘US indicia’ I would just say Canadian, the rest of this is American’s admin issue! I wouldn’t consider that a lie…but saying you’re tax compliant when you’re not or things like that, I think that’s a bad idea.
“If you tell the truth you don’t have to remember anything” – Mark Twain
People can do whatever they want – Sauve qui peut – but for goodness sake be prepared for the consequences. Do you really want to reward the bank with your money and compromise your integrity at the same time (unless of course in your assessment of the situation lying is the ‘noble’ thing to do)?
@bubblebustin
“Do you really want to reward the bank with your money and compromise your integrity at the same time”
If a Canadian is considered to be compromising their integrity by calling themselves a Canadian on Canadian soil, it is a truly sad day.
@Bubblebustin
“If you tell the truth you don’t have to remember anything”
A quote that in most contexts I’d agree with but one that I think doesn’t apply here. The definition of a US person under US law is so complex that trying to tell “the truth” as the USG defines it does often require you to remember a lot of nonsense.
@Dash1729
Then why call it a lie?
A friend recently got a letter with two forms from Scotiabank in Toronto along with a letter that asked him either to self-certify that he’s not a “US person” or to self-certify that he is. The packet was sent out by the Insurance arm of the bank which directed him to return the signed forms by Dec. 31st, 2014. If he doesn’t, the letter noted, the bank will assume that he is a “US person” and he will be reported to the CRA and then to the IRS.
He isn’t a “US person,” but he lost his third country –non-US, non-Canadian– passport in Florida and went to the consulate in said state to get it replaced. Hence, the place of issuance of the current passport is a US city. The bank flagged this “indicium” to pinpoint him as plausibly reportable.
Importantly, he has just a bit over 10K in his Canadian chequing account, which means that, just like TD bank, Scotiabank is opting to overlook the $50K minimum in accounts to report “US persons.” Hence, these banks are actively violating the terms of the IGA just to err on the “safe” side.
The ADCS lawsuit rightfully pushes back on this blunder-of-an-agreement-with-pretensions-of-a-treaty that the Canadian government signed. But shouldn’t these willful violations be included in the suit’s chief arguments to buttress the case that the banks are outright harrassing their customers –both Canadian and other citizens– by deciding on arbitrary, illegal minimums just to “be safe?”
That is, the illegality crosses multiple thresholds starting with these arbitrary minimums and ending all the way in the violation of the Charter.
If these banks are asking their customers to adhere to this abomination because it was signed “into law,” they should also respect the terms of the agreement. Wouldn’t violating these terms also void the agreement? And why should anyone comply with their demands if they themselves are not holding up their end of the agreement?
Considering the US government lied when they told me I was not a US citizen in the 90s, because I lived and voted in Canada, I have no desire to be either cooperative or truthful with them. Had they not lied in the first place, because they liked to deny people their “precious” citizenship, I would never have been caught up in their IRS cesspool. I told them THEN I had absolutely ZERO desire to be a US citizen.
Their loss, and not my problem. That’s why I paid the $450 get out of jail free fee.
Have I, or would I, ever lie to my own (Canadian) government? Not a chance. I have respect for my country. I have NO respect for the US.
Re: lying.
The US government is a serial human rights violator. The rule of law means nothing to the US government. They will stop at nothing to get their way, punish those they don’t like, and threaten even their friends with economic extortion. In short, the US government has no integrity, cannot be trusted to honor it’s commitments, and shamelessly breaks even their own laws whenever it suits them. The laws of other countries mean nothing to them. They insist on us being honest (I swear under penalty of perjury….blah, blah, blah) and then lie, cheat, threaten, and steal from us.
Insisting on being scrupulously honest in all cases puts you at a disadvantage when dealing with criminals like that. I liken it to lying when a robber has you at gunpoint. I’d say whatever is most likely to get me out of the situation unscathed. Fight like hell and don’t rule out anything that will defeat those vultures.
I’m one of those draft dodgers Fifi mentioned. Most of the young men I went to high school with came home in a box, maimed, or so mentally damaged their lives were ruined. Believe me when I say playing by their rules is a losing strategy. This is not a game. Honesty will get you nowhere with that government.
She said … I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
What she could and perhaps meant to say is I will say and maintain “I am Canadian” — with a clear conscience. That is how she sees herself. That is how I see myself. That is how I see my children. Who is to define who we are if not ourselves?
I know — the law is the law is the law. That is why we have a Challenge. To see whose law is the law of Canada.
Support http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/. We’re doing great — and we have a long road ahead. Be strong.
Yes, Calgary411, she will tell the truth with conviction, not tell a lie with a clear conscience. To tell a lie with a clear conscience makes you a psychopath.
@Dash
What you’re saying is that the end justifies the means and that we should hide the truth behind a lie in order fight injustice. Besides this, if the IRS and your bank have enough on you to be asking, lying won’t help. You’re better off giving them the one-finger salute BEFORE you give them the chance to ask. Put your money in a friendlier place NOW, or if you’re in love with your bank, renounce to get a CLN and ignore the IRS demands for five years of tax certification.
Speaking as a ‘US Person’ with a US place of birth forever to be a burden carried and with no way to change it, I think each of those affected has to make their own decision on whether to lie or not. I lied recently, but not on paper, when a bank manager seeing me enter the bank (not being asian I stand out like a sore thumb holding a national ID card of that country)…rushed over to me…asking nicely what my ‘ethnicity’ was…a nice way of asking where I was born in that language…I said ‘westerner’ knowing full well what she was asking…the correct answer in this context would have been ‘American’ or ‘US’….she asked again…I lied. I said ‘UK’ (heck ‘UK’ is close to ‘US’ right?)…I asked her why she was asking…she said the national regulator ‘Bank of ___’) picked my name out because it is a western name identified as a local citizen..then she walked away. No forms, no nothing…I lied and she walked..I avoided the consequences for now. If she had presented a form, I likely would have opted to close the account and lie as well…fortunately, I did not have to face that (this time).
Never mind only lying, heck, get fake documents to hide yourself from the Nazi Green police if you have to!! A lot of people I chatted with that came here from the USA as kids all plan to get fake documents when needed. If the Government of Canada or the CRA plan to charge them, the court case will be front page news and Canadians will be the jury. We all know who will win at that point…. this seems to be the thought on the street. I have a file with ALL of my unanswered letters and emails to prove my government did NOTHING to protect someone born in Canada. This is a slap in the face!
@Bubblebustin @calgary411
The scenario I have in mind is this:
Someone becomes a Canadian citizen taking an oath before God and the Queen to that effect.
I don’t think such a person should have any problem–with a clear conscience–describing themselves as a Canadian citizen to their bank even if the USG thinks otherwise.
Whether that is practical approach if “the bank and the IRS have enough on you” is another matter. But a Canadian should be able to call themselves a Canadian with their head held high and a clear conscience–not at all psychopathic.
Thanks, Dash. I think we can all agree on that.
Dont twist my words. Did I say that telling the truth with a clear conscience is psychopathic?
@hellame
“But for the first time I’m moving from lurker to commenter to say this: DO NOT EVER LIE. The perjury charge will stick when nothing else will. I wouldn’t volunteer information but do not lie on a form and sign it, do not lie when asked questions directly. The lie is where they’ll get you.”
Pls explain “how they will get you”?