This post appeared on the RenounceUSCitizenship blog.
The following tweets reference two great summaries of the AARO FATCA meeting on October 6, 2014 in Paris:
Big news! @SenMikeLee opposes #FATCA and outlines specific steps to achive repeal https://t.co/hn4satz3iQ
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 7, 2014
@VictoriaFerague post on @AARO #FATCA meeting with @SenMikeLee and Jim Bopp http://t.co/3mNawWpvu0 "There is a tide in the affairs of men"
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 7, 2014
This is excellent and welcome news. What I particularly like are the specific reasons given for his opposition to FATCA and making his thinking the juridical basis for Jim Bopp’s FATCA Legal Action lawsuit.
As an aside – could it really be true that Senator Lee is the only “Constitutional Scholar” in the Senate? Also of note, is that Senator Lee’s father Rex Lee, served as Solicitor General under President Reagen.
It appears that Senator Lee has joined Senator Rand Paul as the first American politicians to actively oppose FATCA.
Welcome news indeed!
I take the Liberty of quoting from Victoria Ferauge’s superb account of the meeting:
Senator Lee spoke first and he began with some anecdotes from the time when he was first elected to the Senate. He’s a young man with a quiet and modest demeanour. He recounted how in the very beginning he had moments where because of his youth and appearance he was taken for something other than a member of that august body, the US Senate, and how he finally had to quietly but firmly assert himself as the elected-by-the-people junior Senator from Utah. He invited us to laugh with him and we did. But the funny stories took a very serious turn when he shared the lesson he drew from that experience: “We must assert what is rightfully ours,” he said, “if it is to have any meaning.”
US citizens wherever they live, he said, have constitutional rights that cannot be taken away by anyone.
And how can the Senator say such a thing with so much conviction? Because he was an American abroad himself. Because his mother was born in Europe to two expatriate American citizens. Because he has a son abroad today.
With great candour he explained that FATCA was part of a larger bill that most US lawmakers probably didn’t read and surely barely understood before they voted on it. Furthermore, there was no real political risk to them – no chance that they would lose their seats by attacking Americans abroad, a population little-known and slightly threatening to people in the American homeland. In light of what has happened since it was passed (the citizenship renunciations and the widespread discrimination it has brought to US citizens abroad), it should be repealed, he said, and that’s not a liberal versus conservative, or republicans versus democrats issue; it’s an American issue. “I will fight until it’s done,” he assured us, and, “While you can’t vote for me, I can vote for you.”
Mr. Bopp then took the floor and with quiet precision he laid out the case he is preparing against FATCA and the hated FBAR (renamed the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network Form 114), the latter of which he rightly noted, is based on the assumption that Americans abroad are all tax cheats and simply can’t be trusted. FATCA, too, is all about stopping the, as John McCain said, “illegal activities” of the American population abroad. The fines for non-compliance are clearly excessive, he said, and noted one case where an individual caught in the dragnet ended up paying 150% of the value of the non-reported account.
Americans have rights, he noted, under the US Constitution. Government must make an “individualized determination and (have) probable cause” to go after people it believes are violating the law. FATCA and FBAR are nothing more than “fishing expeditions” and while the US IRS does have some leniency in this area, this is “off the scale” and he believes that US courts will strike them down. And all this, he said, to enforce a system of citizenship (not residence)-based taxation which results in “adverse and differential treatment” against Americans abroad.
I should have said that my donation is for the Canadian legal challenge! I AM CANADA! I DO NOT identify with the US. Canada raised me. I know nothing about “being US” and everything about “being Canadian”. I CONSIDER MYSELF TO HAVE RELINQUISHED in 1993. Although, I did write to The Jim Bopp Law Office. I thought that he as a lawyer will understand my being a signing authority on a law firm’s trust accounts, all six of them. Also, a very,very long time ago, I was literally so to speak from his backyard.
@Mark Twain
I try (not always successfully) to be guided by the Christian scriptures. Does that make me a “bible thumper?” Pejorative language can sometimes illuminate and just as often offend. Some of these “bible thumpers” and even a few Mormons will have a hand in saving our bacon…educate yourself please!
Mark Twain:I find the DA position to be as amazing as it is incredibly stupid and ineffective. It is not even a band-aid to a fast bleeding wound…the proposed solution does absolutely nothing. Any US citizen living abroad who has historically voted Democrat should really and truly jump party lines and vote for the Republicans. Only the Republicans at least have a platform and a plan to deal with this disaster. Calling them Lemmings is being kind to the Democrats who vote for their party and the party then throws them under the bus.
Lake Superior: Agree with you….in reality this issue of CBT/FATCA/FBAR should be completely non partisan, and certainly agnostic to any religion, race, creed, color and National Origin. This is an issue created and prosecuted by the US Government and in particular this Administration.
test
Google: James Bopp’s fact finding tour of Europe + AGEFI
Every time I try to post the URL my comment does not appear.
@EmBee
Yes, that also happened to me when I tried to post the link. But anyhow this was stated in the article from Mr Bopp: (I don’t understand what it means)
“The most serious point is this. If IGAs are recognized as illegal by subsequent governments or the U.S. courts, the bank account information provided by foreign banks on behalf of their American clients will be viewed as not relieving American citizens of their responsibility to have reported this information themselves. If they failed to file the required reports, because they relied on their foreign bank to do this for them, they will have violated FATCA and their banks will be subject to a 30% withholding tax on all payments made through the United States to the bank for all their clients (regardless of whether they are Americans or not). This would have a potentially devastating effect on the banks and their clients and would be a case of double jeopardy.”
I can be a bit “thick”! Does this mean if the bank collects your information and you tell the bank I have no intention of filing a return the bank is then held to the 30% withholding? Nice stick to use against the bank to stop the reporting if true. Reckon they would close your account? Would they then still report you as a recalcitrant client but be off the hook for the withholding as you are no longer a client?
@Charl
Sounds like the banks need to run a disclaimer that reporting them to the IRS does not relieve the customer of their responsibility to report to the IRS and US Treasury.
Sounds like the reason banks are getting rid of US customers.
@Bubble
How would the banks know if you filed or not? It seems they will still be on the hook even with a disclaimer.
@ Charl
Yes there’s something amiss in that AGEFI link.
Here’s another section of the James Bopp interview that I found interesting (particularly the last sentence — Mona Lisa are you reading this?)
Many people who have renounced “irrevocably”, in full awareness of the meaning of that word, do n o t want back a US citizenship!
@KingOfTheRoad
Right. Even if FBAR and FATCA are deemed — and isn’t that a useful word! — even if they are deemed to be unenforceable, that still leaves PFIC, capital gains on home sale, US tax on retirement savings, US exit taxes, and all the other unpleasantness that CBT so amply provides.
I suppose you could argue that absent FATCA, all of these can be ignored if you intend never to visit the US in future. Personally I think that even when/if FATCA is overturned non-US banks will still shun US citizens. The US has revealed itself to be an untrustworthy treaty partner, and ‘political risk’ for banks is too high.
@ KingoftheRoad
I know what you mean. My husband wouldn’t take his USness back, even if it was handed to him on a silver platter. However, I know some renouncers like Mona Lisa would seriously consider it — especially if it came with RBT.
@EmBee
I see nothing wrong if they want the citizenship back… let them sign off a piece of paper… done… they got it back.. if they don’t want it back… don’t do a thing… and people can move on with their lives…
@ USFP
Absolutely — none of that sneaky give it back without telling anyone monkey business they pulled off decades ago though. Anyway this is probably not going to happen. I just thought it interesting that the RNC had even thought of this.
Months of people lining up to pay $2350 would tell you they agree, EmBee.
BUT, if it ever happened, those who relinquished before FATCA’s existence wouldn’t be allowed the opportunity, I imagine.
I don’t think any who actually KNEW they were relinquishing by becoming citizens of another country, Avant FATCA, would want their US citizenship back. I for one was really PO’d that they gave it back to us without asking if we wanted that.
I would agree, Calgary411, but I would guess that there are some who’d take advantage of the ability to relinquish even though they hadn’t intended to at the time. Frankly, I wish I’d been in that situation! The State Department probably knows this, but are powerless to do anything to stop someone from back-dating a relinquishment if they can’t prove otherwise.
I paid over $1,000 in travel costs and renunciation fee to tell them I didn’t want their damned citizenship for the SECOND time. If they reimpose it on me yet again, I swear I WILL go postal! I want NOTHING to do with that country!
L’ AGEFI, October 16, 2014: James Bopp’s fact finding tour of Europe AND Senator Mike Lee tours Europe
http://us3.campaign-archive1.com/?u=6abb65ad85e4871518cc4e6ad&id=43c098e7b2
“The Republican National Committee has graciously agreed to match the next US$50,000 in donations that we receive from our membership around the world.”
I note however that their thermometer remains stuck on $100,000.
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February 24, 2015
Dear Jak:
Thank you for your letter to Senator Lee regarding tax code. Senator Lee agrees that the American tax code needs reform and to be simplified. Senator Lee has even proposed new and innovative legislation involving simplifying the tax code in effort to stimulate economic growth. Your thoughts will be shared with the Senator and we encourage you to continue to stay involved and reach out to us whenever you have input you would like to share with us. Senator Lee takes your thoughts and comments seriously and always keeps them in mind as he considers these important issues.
As we begin 2015, we are excited to begin a new congress. We have many reforms and new ideas that we will continue to roll out as part of our Conservative Reform Agenda. We believe this positive agenda will have an immediate and meaningful impact on Americans across the country. We have already seen many of our ideas influence the discussion in Washington and across the country and we will continue to advocate for these important changes. We encourage you to visit our website often for updates on our most recent activities, reach out to us by mail or phone, and join us in our many townhall meetings. It is vital that Americans like yourself continue to take an active part in these discussions as we move forward.
Best,
Pete Blair
Office of Senator Michael S. Lee
(202) 224-5444
Follow Senator Lee on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SenMikeLee
Could future renunciations be like this ?
Please US work on the problem NOW
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280013/Mass-wedding-South-Korea-Astonishing-3-500-couples-200-countries-tie-knot.html