This post appeared on the RenounceUSCitizenship blog.
The following tweets reference two great summaries of the AARO FATCA meeting on October 6, 2014 in Paris:
Big news! @SenMikeLee opposes #FATCA and outlines specific steps to achive repeal https://t.co/hn4satz3iQ
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 7, 2014
@VictoriaFerague post on @AARO #FATCA meeting with @SenMikeLee and Jim Bopp http://t.co/3mNawWpvu0 "There is a tide in the affairs of men"
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 7, 2014
This is excellent and welcome news. What I particularly like are the specific reasons given for his opposition to FATCA and making his thinking the juridical basis for Jim Bopp’s FATCA Legal Action lawsuit.
As an aside – could it really be true that Senator Lee is the only “Constitutional Scholar” in the Senate? Also of note, is that Senator Lee’s father Rex Lee, served as Solicitor General under President Reagen.
It appears that Senator Lee has joined Senator Rand Paul as the first American politicians to actively oppose FATCA.
Welcome news indeed!
I take the Liberty of quoting from Victoria Ferauge’s superb account of the meeting:
Senator Lee spoke first and he began with some anecdotes from the time when he was first elected to the Senate. He’s a young man with a quiet and modest demeanour. He recounted how in the very beginning he had moments where because of his youth and appearance he was taken for something other than a member of that august body, the US Senate, and how he finally had to quietly but firmly assert himself as the elected-by-the-people junior Senator from Utah. He invited us to laugh with him and we did. But the funny stories took a very serious turn when he shared the lesson he drew from that experience: “We must assert what is rightfully ours,” he said, “if it is to have any meaning.”
US citizens wherever they live, he said, have constitutional rights that cannot be taken away by anyone.
And how can the Senator say such a thing with so much conviction? Because he was an American abroad himself. Because his mother was born in Europe to two expatriate American citizens. Because he has a son abroad today.
With great candour he explained that FATCA was part of a larger bill that most US lawmakers probably didn’t read and surely barely understood before they voted on it. Furthermore, there was no real political risk to them – no chance that they would lose their seats by attacking Americans abroad, a population little-known and slightly threatening to people in the American homeland. In light of what has happened since it was passed (the citizenship renunciations and the widespread discrimination it has brought to US citizens abroad), it should be repealed, he said, and that’s not a liberal versus conservative, or republicans versus democrats issue; it’s an American issue. “I will fight until it’s done,” he assured us, and, “While you can’t vote for me, I can vote for you.”
Mr. Bopp then took the floor and with quiet precision he laid out the case he is preparing against FATCA and the hated FBAR (renamed the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network Form 114), the latter of which he rightly noted, is based on the assumption that Americans abroad are all tax cheats and simply can’t be trusted. FATCA, too, is all about stopping the, as John McCain said, “illegal activities” of the American population abroad. The fines for non-compliance are clearly excessive, he said, and noted one case where an individual caught in the dragnet ended up paying 150% of the value of the non-reported account.
Americans have rights, he noted, under the US Constitution. Government must make an “individualized determination and (have) probable cause” to go after people it believes are violating the law. FATCA and FBAR are nothing more than “fishing expeditions” and while the US IRS does have some leniency in this area, this is “off the scale” and he believes that US courts will strike them down. And all this, he said, to enforce a system of citizenship (not residence)-based taxation which results in “adverse and differential treatment” against Americans abroad.
An article from Luxembourg on Senator Lee’s trip. It is good to see the American Chambers of Commerce involved:.
http://www.wort.lu/en/business/visit-to-luxembourg-us-delegation-calls-for-repeal-of-fatca-5434145ab9b3988708073322
I just want to say that I wrote Mr. Bopp last week to say “thank you” and to explain my situation to him. I have hopes that he will see the letter. I signed “I am Canada”. I was once, 51 years ago, literally from his “backyard”.
@Tricia Moon:
Yes, that chokes me up.
Thank you Mr. Lee.
@Victoria:
Then why won’t they push for it?
Yes, they have said they support RBT, but immediately follow that statement up by saying that they don’t intend to do anything about it.
Come on, DA, get out there and lead a charge on the RBT front. Don’t just sit on the back lines muttering, “hey, we were there first!” while others do all the heavy lifting.
There’s enough room on the front lines for everyone.
Bopp should go after Cook vs Tait while he is at it. If the Republicans are really serious about supporting RBT, they will should just overturn Cook vs Tait.
Luxembourgh ambassador lists FATCA as the highlight of his own bio. Explains the perspective of his boss, and once again confirms that there is no “collateral damage”— that the objective of FATCA is to collect money from people not in USA.
“On March 28, 2014 Ambassador Mandell’s work to ensure that both Americans and Luxembourgers benefit from taxes generated from overseas investment culminated in the signing of the U.S. – Luxembourg Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA). ”
http://luxembourg.usembassy.gov/about-us/ambassador.html
Report from the Lux visit, very positive
http://www.wort.lu/en/business/visit-to-luxembourg-us-delegation-calls-for-repeal-of-fatca-5434145ab9b3988708073322
And here we have it from Lemmings Abroad
http://www.chronicle.lu/categorieslivingcommunityclubs/item/8767-democrats-abroad-supports-reform-for-urgent-fatca-relief-gop-comes-to-europe-for-money-to-help-tax-cheats
@Foo, nearly as I can tell ALL the American abroad organizations are for RBT and against FATCA. But they have different opinions about how to go about it. To this mix we can now add litigation. The good news is we have more avenues for action and that’s a great improvement over the past few years, right? But I don’t have unlimited time, money and energy. I would feel better about the ACA, AARO and DA efforts if I could see any progress. In the absence of credible information, concrete actions and clear goals AND assuming good will on their part (which I try to do) I reluctantly conclude that they have nothing to communicate and no progress has been made in spite of their efforts.
Into this void march the Republicans. They have a plan, a goal, a warrior and a leader. Furthermore, they have announced deadlines (we will file 30-60 days after the tour in Europe). Better yet they have the backing of the mother ship (the RNC) back in the US. All systems are green.
The Dems (and for that matter ACA and AARO) have nothing on the table that even comes close. And my feeling is that this is a situation where the fish rots from the head. The Dems back in the US are not going to come out against FATCA – on the contrary, they are publicly supporting it and slamming anyone who is against it as being pro tax evasion and pro 1%. How can Dems abroad (and here I will say something in their defense) do anything for Americans abroad under such circumstances? Their own party won’t back them openly even for something as minor as FATCA mitigation, much less help them to seriously fight FATCA and CBT. I think “mitigate” is the best they can do – all that they will be allowed to do. And in the meantime their own membership abroad is kicking and screaming which is forcing them to do this dance to calm everyone down (aka shutting them up) so they can do their job which is to get out the vote for Dems back in the US. And if Dems abroad can’t do that and the Dems get screwed in the mid-terms in part due to Americans abroad voting Republican (or not voting at all), what is more likely? That the DNC will admit that they seriously underestimated this issue and overseas voters’ feelings about it? Or that the Dems abroad leadership was simply incompetent and did not do their job? I think the latter.
And as for the charge that the Republicans are doing this to further their own interests, well, OF COURSE they are. That goes without saying. Neither the Repubs nor the Dems are Mother Theresa, for chrissakes. If I want to hear people telling me that they will help me get into heaven, then I go to church. When I want to get something done in the City of Man, I look for a credible conjunction of interests and someone willing to put skin in the game.
Most Democrats will always vote Democratic, no matter what. Most Republicans will always vote Republican, no matter what. There is a small portion in the middle who vote one way or another from one year to another. What really swings elections is the number of hardcores who stay home on election day–either consciously or unconsciously. THis is where the Democrats are putting their money—-in signing up new Lemmings and getting them to the polls.
@Victoria:
Perhaps I am naive, but I don’t understand why Dems Abroad CAN’T come out strongly for what the people they are supposed to represent want, even if it disagrees with what the DNC is willing to swallow. I mean, there must be other issues where one delegation within the DNC disagrees with others — for example, I imagine different states have different stances on offshore drilling, depending on which ones get the jobs or the oil spills as a result. I mean, disagreement is allowed within one party, right? And those differences presumably get vociferously argued at conventions, or in smoky backrooms, or mailing lists, or however it works these days.
So even if DA gets outvoted by all other delegations in the DNC, that is no reason for them not to push hard for what the people they represent want. Even if they don’t win space on the official DNC platform with their stance, they can at least educate the rest of the DNC on what the reality on the ground is for us out here. Maybe that will even raise awareness enough to cause some incremental moderation of the anti-expat rhetoric from some Democrats.
I wouldn’t blame DA if they are not successful in pushing RBT. But I do blame them if they don’t even try, which is the official stance they are taking now. And I just don’t understand why they won’t. They say it won’t sell right now. So what? That is no excuse for not loudly demanding what is right and just. It should in fact mean that one shouts all the louder and harder.
There are MANY who don’t believe its all that bad. And many of those believe so because they first believe in the Democratic party and second formulate their opinions accordingly.
When in discussions, one has to remember how their minds work. With the RNC position now on paper, one can use this method of thinking to win over bible thumping conservatives who might have thought as a homelander. If I paste in positions of the Republican party to any conservative website prior to them having stated their opinions, they will formulate along the lines of party. If however, they have already built up their own personal position and stated it, they are at risk of losing face if they give in on their arguments.
This is how DA members work. They must think like the party and they cannot lose face. Hence it is difficult to work with them unless you get the backup of an ACLU type reference.
@Foo, the only conclusion I come to is that Dems Abroad simply does not have the clout or the influence to change things in the mother ship in the US. Like all the other Americans abroad organizations, they have access and they will be listened to politely but they won’t get what they want because they have little or no power. I suppose the Dems abroad leadership could quit in protest but I don’t see them doing that. I suppose they could also start agressively and publicly fighting their own party in the US but how long will they keep their jobs if they do that? And I think some of them genuinely have drunk the kool aid that eventually everyone will get used to FATCA and the inforcement of CBT (and FATCA will beget GATCA which I think they are counting on) and it won’t even be an issue in a few years.
That’s my take on it anyway.
As for what the other groups have done:
ACA has put out wonderfully detailed proposals for RBT legislation.
AARO has also had some specific recommendations for mitigation of CBT, I believe.
DA has their FATCA survey and powerful summary report.
So I wouldn’t say RO has been operating in a void, though they have made some impressive strides in a short amount of time.
But if it all degenerates to partisan politics, nothing will ever get accomplished. Yes, DA and RO will inevitably snipe at each other a bit, but they have to recognize that they have more in common on these issues than they have differences, and harping on those differences is NOT going to impress us lowly voters or inspire us to turn out. Show me that you care more about my needs than about the Party’s needs (either party) if you want my support.
@Mark Twain:
Yes, I think the problem must be that DA is dominated by short-termers, not lifers abroad. So they just don’t understand how hard it is to live a life completely outside the Magic Kingdom under the current set of rules.
If that is true, then there should be hope for education. And with my optimistic hat on, I do see some signs that they are starting to learn what some of the real issues are. I have seen at least some responsiveness to feedback, as frustratingly tentative and partial as it has been.
@Victoria:
What “jobs” do DA folks actually have that they could be fired from, though? Are they paid by the DNC? I thought it was all volunteer-based. If they are actually beholden to the DNC for something (other than “attaboys”), that would put a different interpretation on things.
@Foo, forgive my cynicism here but as I was getting into this I talked to a long time observer of all these orgs and this person told me this: they are all very good at writing long detailled position papers, compiling reports and making recommendations. They should be because they’ve been doing it since the 1970’s. But they don’t have much in terms of resources or staff. They can’t even walk into a lawmaker’s office and say if you help us we can deliver x dollars in campaign money and x number of votes. All they have is access and if they lose that, then they have NOTHING. So they aren’t inclined to push hard; instead they “educate”. All good stuff and I agree that it is not nothing at all.
I simply look at the facts. We are about to enter 2015 and where is the progress on ANY of these things? Here are things I want to know:
As of today who has lined up with them in support of RBT? To whom have they presented their proposals? Who has read them? What feedback do they have? Which lawmakers have agreed to the “same country exception”? Who are our allies? (so we can pour love on them.) Who is still thinking about it? (so we can help persuade them.) Who is against us? (So we can vote against them.) By when do they think that we will have RBT? Or the same-country exception? Where are the targets? The goals? Where is the leadership? Where is the strategy? Where is that information? Is it supposed to be a secret because their back-channel negotiations are so delicate? Horse manure.
“It’s on the agenda” tells me NOTHING. And to ask me to continue to write checks every year on that basis is, well, let me put it this way: I believe in the Virgin Mary and her ability to intercede for me with all my heart but she’s not asking me for money in exchange for my faith. :-).
Good points, Victoria.
Sad to say.
The problem is that the democrats have good intentions. I was all for Obamacare when I first heard about it. I think the american people have a right to healthcare just like Canada and many European countries have. The PROBLEM is that they want to make the money for these social services from people who live ABROAD and dont even use these services. The PROBLEM is – they can’t raise the taxes on homelanders because they will lose the votes. They want all these things, but they can’t seem to find the right, the moral way to finance them.
Sad state of affairs.
@Polly. What’s sad if that they’d rather allocate money for war/military than improve the state of healthcare.
I also was for Obamacare too. The problem is that Obamacare does not address the main problem which is the cost. Nothing has been done to limit those thief hospitals who charge you $50 for one aspirin, $30 for a toothbrush, or $150,000 for an out of network surgeon YOU NEVER met that comes help the in-network surgeon that you had the initial appointment with (and you’re left with the bill because it’s out of network).
Nothing has been done to cap the cost of procedures or medications.
It kills me to think that the same medication is sold for 10 times less in other countries. I wonder if the cost the pharma companies are selling it abroad is the same or less than in the US and that foreign governments foot the bill, or if Americans are just paying for the R&D themselves for the benefit of people living in foreign countries. Sickening.
So the only thing Obamacare does is put more people in the insurance pool, that are going to pay overpriced services. At the price of these services, I don’t even think a single payer system will solve the problem. Pricing is the issue. Unless they fix this abuse, the US system will never work.
Well it’s seems that the Republicans have outmanoeuvred the Democrats here. The Republican’s effort alone in determining FATCA’s constitutionality makes the Democrat’s message look more like like it’s ok to expose Americans to perpetual privacy invasion and cruel and unusual punishment – as long as you can catch a few offshore tax evaders at home. Let’s be clear: Democrats Abroad represent the Democratic Party abroad, and will represent Democratic voters abroad only so long as they vote Democrat.
That’s why the Bopp legal challenge is so important to get behind, because in the end it may not matter what anyone like DA, AARO or congress thinks if FATCA’s proven to be unconstitutional.
@Mark Twain
I read somewhere that something like only 25% of voters vote along party lines. I predict that FATCA is going to turn the overseas vote on its head.
@Polly
The problem I see with Obamacare is that in going to a “socialized” form of medical coverage, they didn’t choose single-payer.
RE Obamacare: There are myriad problems with how Obamacare has been implemented, but first and foremost, the worst problem is that Obama lied. People who had good health plans were supposed to get to keep them. Wrong. The costs were not supposed to be less affordable for the middle class. Wrong. Also, along with keeping the high costs of drugs, as “noone” pointed out, nothing has been done to cap the high malpractice insurance costs for doctors and health practitioners. So of course, these costs get passed on to the people. I have friends and family back in the U.S. who work in hospitals; none are doctors but they include nurses and staff, in states from the midwest to the west coast, and none of them like Obamacare. Not one. One thinks she’ll lose her job because of Obamacare; her Indianapolis hospital is laying off people and it’s deep in debt. Anyways . . .
I’m delighted to read about the work of Mr. Bopp and Sen. Lee and why they are making this tour, and how they are carefully orchestrating their fight against FATCA. I wish them all the best!
Well if both the Democrats and Republicans are going to pander for our vots, let’s hope that they fully realize that if the US doesn’t go to residency based taxation before long, there won’t be too many of us left to pander to.
I sent my first donation last week in the post. I don’t have a lot of money, but will send $25.00 every pay cheque through the post. I know that the mail is slow, but my husband wants me to send cash, no name used. He is angry and frightened. I have sent my first two letters to MPS today letting them know I have NOT renewed my membership and future donations ear marked for them will go to the defense. I signed my letter “I AM CANADA”. I plan to send the letter to every MP in BC!
When I go to the US in Nov I plan on getting a cashiers check and making an anonymous donation to the Bopp war fund. On Nov 4th I will finish my work meetings, and go to a bar and sit and watch the mid term elections unfold and hope the GOP takes the Senate. With the House and Senate, the GOP can move forward with their plan against FATCA. By the way, I had the opportunity to speak to Solomon Yue some weeks back from Republicans Abroad. He is impressive, knows the issues and has a plan. I do not want to renounce my US citizenship even though I am not planning on moving back to the USA but I have family there including kids that I have to be able to visit – but as I told Solomon – renouncing is now my 5 year plan. Hopefully that plan can change but unless CBT is scrapped for RBT I will have no choice.
@ Ann#1 I understand your husband’s fear. This situation makes us paranoid, this is a valid feeling. I finally used a credit card not associated with my bank, but I had a hard time deciding how to donate.
@ Steve I fear that even if the Republicans win in this next election, they will not act quickly enough and will be content to wait for the next election. I don’t know if they realize how urgent change is needed. The lawsuits will also proceed slowly. It is a shame that US citizens that want to keep their citizenship are being forced to renounce because of the impossible situation they are facing.