Originally, my understanding was that existing customers would not be signaled under FATCA regulations unless their accounts were over $50,000. Yesterday, I spoke with a woman whose accounts never exceed $10,000 in aggregate. Furthermore, she is a young mother who hasn’t worked much in the last few years since coming to Canada, and so she has never had an IRS tax liability, as her income would be well below the Foreign Earned Income Exemption. She holds her accounts jointly with her Canadian-only husband. This case highlights why we need the legal action of ADSC.
Yesterday she received the following correspondence from her bank. It shows that they have determined that she has US indicia. They have threatened her with reporting her accounts to the CRA in violation of section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights, which would require the CRA to obtain a warrant before seizing her account information. But now the TD Bank has threatened to transfer her account information to the CRA. But what crime has she committed that the TD has threatened this action? None at all.
I have recommended that she do nothing–not fill out the self-certification form. But I’d like to hear what others think. Please discuss.
Here is the self-certification form. Please note the date at the bottom: June 9, 2014.
I’d advocate FAR WORSE. USX. You REALLY don’t want to know the thoughts running through my head right now. It’d rank up there with ISIS.
I’m sure you’re familiar with “The Sum of All Fears”. Yeah…that’s how enraged I am. Doesn’t mean I’m going to go that far, but the scenario plays out in my mind.
Funny notion here.. seeing as CLNs are not numbered or anything… why not just photoshop one? It’s not like the banks are in a position to verify them in any way. You can even make a little seal for yourself for a few bucks to add that extra layer of legitimacy. Tada, problem solved. This isn’t a document they can suddenly start trying to control (hey former citizens, your documents are out of date, go to your nearest US embassy and pay money to update them or else you’re a citizen again?).
http://www.gawker.com/french-vegetable-farmers-wreak-havoc-on-town-burn-down-1637204775
@Fred
What I find funny about the document is that you can download the blank form from official government websites. The US government has made it easy for people to create a forgery.
What I find interesting is just how did TD get the birthplace info in the first place. With reference to the charter asking for this information is discriminatory at best. I have opened several bank and investment accounts and can’t recall ever being asked anything about my place of birth.
But if you ever apply for CPP or OAS one of the first things the government asks for is your place of birth.
To become compliant I would risk financial ruin, I mean living on the streets, and this I will never do to myself or family. So like many others I too raise my middle finger at the IRS and it’s safe to say that I was born in the US(no choice in that matter) but I of my own free will became a Canadian and I will be dammed if any foreign country will wreck what has taken me a lifetime to earn
@Bob,
If you naturalized as a Canadian when you were over 18 years old prior to 2004 and haven’t acted like an American in any way since (US passport, voting) then you can apply for a back-dated CLN and not file any taxes. Does this fit your case?
@Bob
There used to be a time when US citizens didn’t have to hide. They did not know that opening an account with a US passport or speaking to a bank teller with an American accent would land them in hot water one day.
Bob,
There are several references to not being able to afford such things as US professional tax and accounting assistance or the ever-increasing expatriation from US citizenship fees — a continuing gap between those who can afford their freedom and those who cannot. I will use what you say here in a post I will try to put together from various comments — after some other things I must first do this morning.
Welcome to Isaac Brock!
@Bob
When you say “To become compliant I would risk financial ruin, I mean living on the streets, and this I will never do to myself or family”, are you referring to the non-trivial costs of professional cross-border tax preparers, or are you referring to the risk of massive penalties? If the latter, on the chance that you’re not aware, there have been no reports of anyone who has backfiled using either QD (quiet disclosure) or the Streamlined program being hit with penalties of any kind.
Strange indeed. ATB financial, an Alberta government owned and operated bank intends to be fully IGA compliant. I can’t fathom why. No balls I guess-unlike VanCity
Anyone looking for credit unions who are deemed Local Client Base FIs and hence exempt from reporting accounts held by residents of Canada, check out this Maple Sandbox link.
http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/are-other-canadian-credit-unions-being-as-responsible-about-fatca-as-vancity/
Vancity isn’t the only one; it turns out Alterna Savings in Ontario is also Local Client Base, though their website is strangely silent on that point — but as noted on Sandbox, they in fact have that status, confirmed by email to me earlier today. They have more than $2 billion in assets, but their client base is Ontario-resident only and they aren’t part of a multinational anything (other than ATM networks which evidently don’t disqualify for Local Client Base, Alterna has been part of Cirrus and Interac for some years now). As I noted in Sandbox, when asking about FATCA compliance, be specific and ask if the credit union has registered as Local Client Base (and if not, why not, seems to me all credit unions in Ontario would qualify pretty-much automatically). They will say they’re FATCA compliant, and they are … they’ll report on accounts held by non-residents of Canada. Of which they likely have zero or very few, given the limitation on accounts to Ontario residents. Maybe some careless snowbirds who outstay their Florida visit fall through the cracks, otherwise I can’t image who they’d have to report.
What I have read is that if you fill out the forms when required you will not be penalized. You would not be required to pay more tax, as the tax would be blended with Canadian taxes, if required at all. Although I really think it is an invasion of privacy, you must realize that the banks in Canada are in bed with the government. They can be your best friend, or your worst enemy.
I think the US is abusing it’s influence and don’t agree with what’s going on, but you can also blame the Harper Conservatives for giving in to their greedy desperation. I for one do not understand how the Conservative movement around the world expects hard working people to sustain themselves into retirement by selling everything to the highest bidder, but by voting against them next election you stand a far better chance to stop the greedy American Government from taxing dual citizens abroad.
You should be careful not to give the wrong advise, however.
@David,
Re: ” What I have read is that if you fill out the forms when required you will not be penalized. You would not be required to pay more tax, as the tax would be blended with Canadian taxes, if required at all. ”
With all due respect David, you have not read enough as it is very apparent from your comment that you do not understand the financially devastating impact of FATCA and CBT on average Canadians living, working, and saving for retirement and their children’s education.
Have financial institutions in Canada been contacted by these scammers looking to steal our account and personal data?
“The IRS has received reports of incidents from multiple countries and continents.”
http://www.kpmg.com/US/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/taxnewsflash/Pages/2014-2/fatca-irs-warns-of-phishing-scams-for-fatca-related-account-data.aspx
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/intfinlaw/2014/09/fatca-phishing-to-steal-customer-account-data-has-begun.html
http://www.accountingweb.com/article/irs-alerts-foreign-banks-about-new-fatca-related-scam/223928
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/218765-irs-scammers-taking-advantage-of-new-law
“The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) is warning foreign banks that scammers are trying to put one over on them when it comes to a new law cracking down on offshore tax evasion.
In a new alert, the tax agency said Wednesday that fraudsters around the world are posing as the IRS to try to get information about financial accounts or their holders under the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA.”
And there is NO recourse or recompense if our data is stolen and harm results.
@badger
“And there is NO recourse or recompense if our data is stolen and harm results.”
Correct. And as I’ve said before, it’s only a matter of time until FFIs do start handing over FATCA related data to criminals. If an FFI in a country whose first language is not English (and therefore is unlikely to be able to distinguish fraudulent requests from genuine ones) starts getting threatening requests from criminals posing as the IRS or Treasury, they are quite likely to provide that data to put themselves out of harms way.
@Badger…
Thanks…..Saw those articles yesterday and there is this one from Accounting Today, today…
This just drips with irony….
http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irs-watch/new-scheme-targets-fatca-data-72091-1.html#read
My comment I just posted on Linkedin …
This should come as NO SURPRISE. ID, Tax refund and DATA theft in relation to anything the IRS does, is rampant in America. When the FATCAnatics in Congress embarked on their offshore jihad, with their FATCA fatwa and sanctions for non compliance, we warned that this would be the outcome. It is only beginning, and will get worse!!!!
American’s living abroad are especially at risk, as they have both their Identities and financial data being exposed to additional fraud and security concerns from this misguided dragnet the USA is creating.
@Badger…
The Hill article is especially a good one to make comments on, as that is read by Congressman and Staffers…
Not many comments yet,…
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/218765-irs-scammers-taking-advantage-of-new-law
Treasury is currently working on further guidance regarding the approval process for self-certifications.
http://www.fsitaxposts.com/2014/09/29/u-s-treasury-require-self-certification-form-approval-based-guidance-treasury/
Question,If you renounce your critizen for it costs Just $8 -10 thousand, what advange to you have? Your birth place on your bith certificate still will state USA, Any passport will state USA as bith country.So how do get around this any one?
@ Connie Kirby
The way it works is you renounce your US citizenship, the DOS issues you a CLN and the CLN trumps your place of birth. You present your CLN to your bank to prevent them from FATCA reporting your accounts and to the US border guard to visit the USA using your non-US passport. AND, your US tax filing obligations end at the date on your CLN. How do you get around your accounting costs? Well some people take a wild stab at doing the paperwork themselves. It depends on how complex your finances are. There’s no way to get around the new higher fee for renouncing but you can express your opinion about the fee (anonymously if you choose) here:
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOS_FRDOC_0001-2956
See this Brock thread:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/09/25/have-you-made-voiced-your-concerns-re-the-u-s-department-of-state-renunciation-fee-hikes-httpwww-regulations-gov/
I also received the same form from my bank in october here in France (been living in France since 1973 aged 7 years old and never have filed a US tax form in my life, didn’t know we had to and never will. I don’t even have a US SSN).
I told my bank that for US citizens living permanantly abroad the threshhold is now 200 000$ for them to be obliged to report me. So many of us are not concerned. That’s why it says “we may have to report your account information”.
I sent the French IGA agreement to my bank that proves this.
I told my bank that if they reported me I would sew them in court for giving my private banking information away for no valuable reason that threatens them.
Havn’t heard of them since then.
Wait and see…
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To Petros,
One the threshold is only $97,600 per person NOT $200,000.
Whether one has a SS# or not if you have a US passport or you are married to a U.S. person you are subjected to FATCA and FBAR.
Please go to http://www.fatcalegalaction.com
This site will answer your questions. The group that founded the site is suing the U.S. government and the IRS to repeal FATCA.
@Mathew
Welcome. I’m sure you’ll be pleased to learn that many of us are involved with Republicans Overseas (see RO’s Facebook, AARO’s, and American Expatriate’s Facebook pages) in supporting the FATCA legal action lawsuit. This is only a small sample of the discussion at Brock pertaining to it:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/10/07/cautiously-optimistic-about-the-senmikelee-and-jim-bopp-fatca-legal-action-initiative/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/09/01/u-s-fatca-legal-action-site-is-now-live-and-u-s-lawyer-jim-bopps-legal-opinion-available/
What thresholds are you referring to? The threshold for reporting on FATCA form 8938 is $200K for single non-resident US persons.