Democrats Abroad has published a report of their four month study of how FATCA affects Americans. These reports have been sent to “selected members of Congress and senior officials at the US Treasury and IRS.” DA also indicates discusions with them are ongoing.
DA Report DataPack-CDNS top the list of respondents; 31.8% of those denied jobs due 2 #FATCA Senior Exec Positions http://t.co/6HNFnd4NZK
— ADCSovereignty (@ADCSovereignty) September 15, 2014
The report consists of the following (3) documents:
1. Executive Summary of 2014 FATCA RESEARCH PROJECT – “FATCA: Affecting Everyday Americans Every Day”
2. 2014 FATCA RESEARCH PROJECT – “FATCA: Affecting Everyday Americans Every Day”
3. 2014 FATCA RESEARCH PROJECT – Datapack
Quite a nice coordinated broadcast on Twitter of this article and articles posted on IBS: US Expat Canada, IBS, ADCS, and Patrica Moon all tweeting at once. Forbes gives option to share your comment on Twitter.
I view this as an outstanding effort by Democrats Abroad and have asked on Twitter for Republicans Abroad, Americans Abroad, and AARO for publication of their surveys/compilation of letters. There are a lot of stories on Isaac Brock Society and on Maple Sandbox yet not all put together in a way that DA have done.
We know that those participating are a subset of the universe of USP abroad. Survey: 77% say they are generally compliant. Yet I have heard a figure of the 7 million abroad and about 500,000 odd who are filing returns. The results also say 6% don’t plan to vote in the upcoming election – so most are quite active and attached to America and nil accidentals included.
Also no kids and only 1% under 25 years old.
19.8% have their own business. That is a significant percentage and I believe this is a segment quite impacted by FATCA and CBT when fully compliant.
They seem quite knowledgeable of tax. 67% say that they are married or in a de facto relationship yet 45% say they either do not share accounts/have moved to separate accounts/or will move to separate accounts. 26% say they have either a US citizen spouse or US dual citizen spouse. So these numbers seem to add up saying that those who have a nonUS spouse they all have separate accounts. !
@JC
All posts on IBS are automatically tweeted by accounts you have listed as well as as the Facebook pages Isaac Brock Society and American Expats Abroad. Thanks for noticing!
I seem to recall that same figure of roughly 500k who file returns….that would seem to be a rather low figure, all things considered. It is hard to tell on first-read, whether the survey reflects a real section of the expat community. If 77% are compliant, it would suggest not, though interesting that many of the same issues are present.
It is unfortunate IMO that this DA document, at least the executive summary, makes no mention at all of the outrageous impact this is having on “accidental” Americans (dual citizens at birth who have never lived in the US as adults and don’t consider themselves Americans). Not surprising, I guess, because why would ANY of those folks EVER sign up for Democrats Abroad (or American Citizens Abroad, or Republicans Overseas for that matter? THEY’RE NOT BLOODY AMERICANS.)
That being said, I think this is an excellent document otherwise, and if the Obama administration ignores it or shunts it aside, that tells you everything you need to know about how important Americans overseas are to this administration, and IMO should trigger mass renunciations of USC — certainly that would be what the US deserves if they ignore this, especially Obama and company FROM THEIR OWN BLOODY CHEERLEADERS OVERSEAS. HELLO BARRY ARE YOU LISTENING? Jeez Louise. What does it take to get their attention if this doesn’t, a sledgehammer? Or something worse and more inflammatory that I’m not going to verbalize here?
While the document all makes sense, I’m withholding judgement until I see some response from US elected officials. I’m having a hard time believing that this isn’t just the democrats abroad pandering for votes.
I’m a lifelong democrat, but at the moment I’m disgusted with my party. I’ve written to the congressman and senators from the last state I paid US taxes in – all democrats – and received no response. I’d like to hear something to at least acknowledge the problems faced by nonresident US citizens from either the President or some democrats in congress before the next election. I can’t see myself voting for any more democrats until that happens.
Hmmmm 77% think they are compliant eh? And most seem to understand their filing obligations? I think the sample size is much too small, because most of those surveyed I feel are well up to knowledge on what is going on, but that 99% of others have no clue and thus are not interested in taking the survey or didn’t even know about the survey…
By all estimates, 7 million US persons did not participate in this survey, the great majority of which are just beginning to get thrown under the FATCA bus. DA can keep their club.
@Taxconfused Their sample size was at least 6,500. That is a lot. Yet not all groups covered.
This is actually much more than I would have expected from DA and hopefully a first step at a bi-partisan approach to fixing CBT, FATCA and FBAR. Now the Democratic Party needs to do what the RNC has done and endorse a platform to repeal FATCA and go to RBT. Still, I am voting Republican and so should all overseas US citizens who can vote because their position is clear and to the point and hopefully they will do as they say if they win the Senate and hold the House.
From what I am perceiving in my country this upcoming election will have a much greater turnout and of expats voting Republican. Just another piece of the puzzle that tips the Senate Republican.
Good try but I doubt if they will allow Nancy P and Harry R to loose face? However, there is always hope.!
So the Democrats can no longer pretend like they don’t know how bad expats are getting screwed.
If the DNC does not make a Resolution to adopt RBT like the Republicans have done, the Democrats deserve to lose every single expats vote they ever had.
They can no longer be wilfully blind about the destruction that CBT, FBAR and FATCA is doing to expats.
My .02. This is one I would pass around (and am trying to do so via the Flophouse http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.fr/2014/09/fatcacbt-acting-in-your-own-defense.html). It is data (flawed perhaps) but a good effort (notice that Amanda was on the task force) and likely to get noticed. I am sending it to all my reps (all Dems). It may have absolutely no effect but I will feel better for having done it and for raising THE question: What the hell, ladies and gents, are you going to do about it?
The DA’s language is weak so not to offend members of Congress.
Here’s all FATCA has achieved:
1. It’s now socially acceptable to discuss dumping American citizenship among ex-pats, only Homelanders get offended.
2. It doesn’t matter what the percentages are in this report. Make bank closures 100%, the US Congress doesn’t care. Uncle Milty Friedman put it best in another post, repealing FATCA / CBTis not politically profitable for congressman and senators. We don’t have 50 years to change Homelander’s minds about ex-pats. Focus on using foreign courts to knock out FATCA legs.
3. If Homelanders disagree with statements 1 & 2, re-read them until an ex-pat’s reality sets in.
These foreign lawsuits won’t change FATCA, however, it may put the government of the day into a political situation where it’s all or nothing in terms of trading data. Either they share all resident citizen’s data or none. That’ll be a tougher sell then secretly throwing dual citizens under the bus.
Also Brocker’s may be interested to view http://www.Kim.com.
This is about Kim Dotcom, the German living in NZ, that the US Government wants for copyright infringement. His case has similarities to FATCA insofar with the US exporting US law. He’s interesting because in NZ he’s set up the Internet Party and is expected to win 2 or 3 seats in the NZ parliament.
During the conference there were video links with Assuage and Snowden from their respective sanctuaries.
In my opinion FATCA and the mass surveillance issue are linked together.
What the reports indicate is that Democrats Abroad are “lightly, politely and solicitously” suggesting that their “Master Owners” may be actually hurting their “Property Abroad”. The most they have proposed is the “same country exemption for FATCA and FBAR (which is better than nothing, but ultimately not the way to go.)
The data indicates that Americans abroad are being hurt by the U.S. government.
The problem is that most of the hurt is NOT FATCA inflicted hurt. The hurt is inflicted by the rules of CBT (which actually are more of a form of Residence Based Life Control). FATCA is just there to harass the rest of the world into enforcing CBE which is really the attempt to control U.S. property abroad. FATCA has drawn the world’s attention to the immorality of CBT and the U.S. rules of “Life Control”. For U.S. persons, the rules are NOT:
When in Rome …
The rules are
When in Rome do as a Homelander would do. The rules for being a patriotic American include avoiding doing what a Homeland would do. So, you don’t buy mutual funds in your country of residence, etc.
I do agree that the data is effective in making the point that poor (is there any other kind of American abroad?), middle class (the most that American abroad can hope for!) people are being hurt by the tyrannical government (if you want to call it that) in Washington.
This data needs to be used to attack citizenship- based taxation directly. Arguing for the “same country exemption for FATCA and FBAR will alleviate the symptom but will NOT be a cure. Democrats Abroad appears to SUPPORT both CBT and FATCA but simply wants them modified so that their negative effects on those who have been given “the privilege of living abroad” are minimized. This approach will have the effect of suggesting that FATCA and CBT are somehow legitimate to begin with.
In addition if you look at the data (if I am understanding it correctly), you will see the high percentage of people in the sample also have an American spouse. This means that this data is NOT based on the vast majority of people who technically are U.S. citizens but live abroad permanently and are NOT “Homelanders Abroad”.
Conclusion:
Interesting data, better than nothing, but to what end?
U.S. Persons are being destroyed by the Obama administration. All U.S. Persons abroad are under attack. As has been suggested on other posts, the time has come for all U.S. persons abroad to unite.
To imitate a particularly dishonest and disingenuous American politician from a 2004 speech at the Democratic Convention in Boston:
“There are no Democratic U.S. Persons abroad. There are no Republican U.S. Persons abroad. There are ONLY U.S. Persons abroad.
What must be done is to:
1. Identify all these warring factions of U.S. persons abroad.
2. Bring them together.
3. Identify their common interests
4. Pool their resources.
5. Construct a common message.
6. Agree on a plan of attack which is designed to drive a stake through that (so called Government) in DC.
It is obvious that the Government of the United States of America is the enemy of all U.S. persons abroad.
Perhaps the Isaac Brock Society could take the initiative in bringing these groups together. Without a united front, the U.S. government will always be able to “divide and conquer” the various groups.
@USCItizenAbroad
On behalf of everyone here, thanks for the shake. DA’s objective is to seduce us to the point where we vote Democrat. The fact, as you’ve pointed out, that DA wishes only to mitigate the effects of CBT and FATCA speaks volumes to me.
How can we support any organization that states that citizenship based taxation is here to stay?
USCitizenAbroad, I’m starting to look at these “intermediaries” as something to route around. Someone (and that could be Brock) needs to get out in front and LEAD.
USCitizenAbroad, Victoria, and EmBee (in a previous comment),
You all suggest that we try to bring some of “these groups together” because it just makes sense.
We at ADCS-ADSC agree and will take some initiative in having exploratory discussions with the groups. Yes, we will be careful, but positive.
If anyone has suggestions as to the names of all of the different organizations please comment below or send your thoughts via our website.
@USCitizenAbroad Agree completely. Hence my comment, show me some democratic members of congress acknowledging the problem, and maybe I’ll vote for you. The fact that the report makes no mention of the nearly impossible nature of complying with the IRS reporting rules while performing normal financial planning abroad leaves me thinking this is mere posturing. I have NEVER IN MY LIFE voted republican, and yet I probably will this November. The fact that I didn’t even get a PFO when I wrote to my congressman/senator says to me they don’t give a crap about my concerns.
Sometime soon I need to get around to posting the letter I sent to congress, since I see no evidence anyone there ever read it….
Has there ever been a better time for an epic battle between CBT and RBT?
In this war, we need to be in one camp and one camp only: RBT. Those who refuse to condemn CBT are not our allies. Our foes refuse to acknowledge that record numbers of US citizens are dying on the sword of CBT, and attempt to seduce us with a kindler, gentler CBT that does not exist.
We are only beginning to see what a world with CBT’s reign looks like. Although DA’s report may go far in making our representatives aware of the damaging effects of CBT through FATCA, it may in the long run do more harm than good. Does anyone who opposes CBT really want DA to become the preeminent source of guidance to lawmakers, when they say that CBT’s here to stay?
Give you heads a shake, people! These people are not on our side. They are irrelevant to us, and we to them.
My cynical impression —
pre-2012 election: There, there, kiddies — just vote Dem and we’ll do something for you as soon as our man is in for his final four.
Something turned out to be a bright shiny survey. Yay?
pre-2014 election: There, there, kiddies — just vote Dem and maybe we’ll give you something else after our guys are back in Congress.
My question —
What is something else and what motivation would they have to produce it if you get suckered into just voting Dem again? There could be another token something in 2016 and again in 2018 but that game just goes on and on and on. Meanwhile the wheels of the bus that expats are under keep grinding them into the ground.
My more optimistic impression —
Something is always better than nothing. Some people will listen to the numbers and the conclusions of the survey, even though others will just shrug and say, “So what?”
My other observations —
My focus remains on ADCS and if not in deed, at least in thought, my support goes to any legal challenge that arises anywhere else in the world. Politicians are not our friends so we have to take a chance with the judiciary and hope we get judges who are not under political pressure and influence. We also have to keep the coals of this issue burning by constant fanning. That means doing everything we can to press the media into covering the carnage of CBT and the farce of FATCA. And this is the sad part … there will be an increasing number of victims to provide those juicy human interest stories the media seems to be so fond of doing.
My big wish —
That RO, DA, ACA, AARO, RNC, DNC, etc. get together to advocate for the repeal of FATCA and advocate for replacing CBT with RBT. Patches and tweaks aren’t good enough. CBT must go. Contrary to the opinion of the “exceptional” nation, every other nation on earth IS doing it RIGHT with RBT.
I welcome DA’s report for its potential to give homelanders a vivid glimpse of FATCA’s damage to normal people.
They have bravely tackled the problem of criticizing outcomes of their own party’s legislation. Whether that will result in true action, given the present impasse, or whether it will simply become “election balm”, now waits to be seen.
Either way, I feel the contents of this report have the potential for communicating to homelanders some of the agonies of our situation, and for dispelling some of the “myths” about FATCA. The key will surely be whether the report actually reaches the homelanders, or is only circulated among the overseas community.
A big thankyou, therefore, to those of you who are twittering and otherwise communicating. If more homelanders wake up to this, it might help us all long term. Another twig in the dam? Another branch? A tree?
Of course we’d still face the much harder task of getting people to understand the need for RBT as a more comprehensive and truly just solution than DA’s limited proposal for same-country exception – although even that won’t be enough to protect immigrants with parental accounts overseas, etc, until the insane “information penalties” are also rationalized.
Same country exception is but an emergency bandage on a very deep and fast-bleeding wound. And even that bandage may not get applied.
Still, every homelander who learns that we are human beings very like themselves is surely worth the effort….
Still so much work to do! Surgite!
PS: Coincidence perhaps that election ballot arrived in today’s post?
I totally agree, DA hasn’t proven that they are concerned about anything but votes, and frankly a lot of the problems right now are clearly the Dems fault. Increasingly bitter that the people I’ve voted for don’t seem concerned.
@BillT
“Sometime soon I need to get around to posting the letter I sent to congress, since I see no evidence anyone there ever read it….”
Post it here. We’ll read it and probably steal bits of it when making future attempts to connect with politicians.
The DA should be highlighting experiences like this one in the comments here:
http://ovdioptingout.blogspot.ca/2014/06/summary-of-my-ovdi-2011-case.html
See;
Anonymous June 16, 2014 at 8:54 AM
“……Past 3-4 months has been a real torture for me.. almost daily i think of ending my life out of fear of financial security for my family.. however think about my 2 small kids.. i postpone it.. not sure how long i can hold it.. i am on XANAX (anti-depressants) and my wife constantly reminds me of my kids whenever i head out.. http://ovdioptingout.blogspot.ca/2014/06/summary-of-my-ovdi-2011-case.html?showComment=1402934081134#c3577718010772990088
Please HELP!!.. This issue is so sensitive that i am not able to share it with anyone too…..”
That was posted in June. I hope that the commenter found some help, or fits into the SDOP guidelines with acceptable risk (as murky and unpredictable as those programs are), or can comply going forward and continue on.
This level of pain and punishment is simply not necessary or productive – particularly abusive when people are attempting to sort it out and comply – precisely the kind of US taxpayer that will want to live and stay in the US – and must arrive at some kind of solution as a Homelander taxpayer.
I took the survey. They even quoted me.
It’s good info but imo, it should be used for legal action in our home countries to blunt or gut FATCA as much as possible. The more we achieve on that end, the more costly and onerous it becomes for the USG. They only understand money. Our goal should be to make this as costly for them as we can. On every level that is available. Legal. Media attention. Loss of citizens through relinquishment and renunciation.
And I agree that a united front is a stronger one. An alliance is necessary.