“TaxConnections” asks “Shall I Stay or Shall I Go?”
Besides first determining if you are indeed a U.S. citizen, some further self-analysis is necessary. Anyone, and I mean anyone, should comprehend what is in store for “Americans Abroad” reading this and listening to John Richardson’s interview with CHQR News Talk 77, Dave Taylor, in Calgary, AB:
When it comes to FATCA, there are four kinds of *Americans Abroad*
…there are really four kinds of U.S. Taxable Persons abroad. Each one of them has his own set of problems.
…
They can be grouped as follows:
File U.S. tax returns? U.S. tax compliant? What is their problem?
Yes Yes Inability to live normal life*
Yes No Subject to penalties for mistakes**
No Yes Don’t have any income***
No No OMG moment is coming****
Dave Taylor got it and summarized:
It’s unbelievable that the US Government is going after people who in many cases, for decades, have not considered themselves to be Americans, American citizens, but indeed Canadian citizens, for money they don’t owe. It’s unbelievable the US Government has the audacity to think it has a claim on the assets of those people. It’s incomprehensible THAT THE HARPER GOVERNMENT IS PLAYING RIGHT ALONG. So we will watch this story because I think it’s a gross violation of rights and miscarriage of justice.
This analysis / summary of the absurdity and injustice for *US Persons Abroad* should be understandable to anyone who reads it or listens to the interview.
Whether *anyone* would include US Congresspersons whose job should be to understand and make reasonable effective change in legislation is debatable. Why is that?
This is like totally weird.
According to the website of the US embassy in London, it appears that it is easier for a US mother to confer US citizenship on her child if she was unmarried than if she was married.
Married- 5 yrs, may be entitled
Unmarried -1 yr, is entitled
Go figure.
From what I can ascertain, unmarried men cannot confer citizenship because the USG didn’t want all the love-children from their wars claiming US citizenship.
“This distinction between unwed American fathers and American mothers was constructed and reaffirmed by Congress out of concern that a flood of illegitimate Korean and Vietnamese children would later claim American citizenship as a result of their parentage by American servicemen overseas fighting wars in their countries.[14] In many cases, American servicemen passing through in wartime may not have even learned they had fathered a child.[14] In 2001, the Supreme Court, by 5–4 majority in Nguyen v. INS, first established the constitutionality of this gender distinction.[11][12]”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States
Apparently, US servicemen can sow their seeds (and bombs) with impunity.
@bubblebustin
http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/PDF/NationalityChart1.pdf
On or After
Dec. 24, 1952
and Prior To
Nov. 11, 1986
One USC parent and one alien parent
USC parent physically present in U.S. or OLP 10 years, at least 5 after age 14. See Note 3
On or After
Nov. 11, 1986
One USC parent and one alien parent
USC parent physically present in U.S. or OLP 5 years, at least 2 after age 14. See Note 3
The chart I see is children born in wedlock, Tricia.
I have determined that my children ARE NOT citizens. I was born in Indiana in 1963 and came to Canada in 1973. I took citizenship in 1993. My husband who is Canadian wanted our family to be Canadian. But, I have another problem. If they would deny my claim to relinquish, I have a problem. My CANADIAN employer isn’t ok with them having information about all the accounts that I am a signatory on. He has 7 accounts; one general and six pooled trust accounts. He is concerned about security and also privacy laws. And wondering why a foreign government should feel they are entitled to his information? The Law Society of British Columbia audits every lawyer’s general and trust accounts regularly. We always pass audit with flying colors! If the IRS begins asking about the trust accounts, we can never disclose anything about our clients without contravening the privacy laws! I am wondering why they would need to know detailed information about pooled trust accounts when that money belongs to the clients and is a retainer for work being performed, purchase funds and sale proceeds. Any thoughts?
@bubblebustin
I’m sorry, I don’t follow. Did Anne say her kids were born out of wedlock?
I have read the one year requirement; it seems to apply to a US mother and a US national (but not citizen) OR an unwed mother as listed earlier by Caledonia dreamin
Tricia, http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/PDF/NationalityChart1.pdf is like the US tax code. Where did this form paperwork thing come from? Not from the civil war, nor from 1812 war as Washington was burned got rid of that stuff, maybe from Vietnam. I think this was the watershed when the US became racist against not only blacks but the people of Vietnam (early sixties).
From the immigration and naturalization service
same info is on State Dept
not defending it, just giving the location
Anne #1. Slow down. You are no longer a US citizen. You relinquished your US citizenship in 1994.
Check the link near the top right to dep’t of Stateforms and procedure manuals. When you have read enough ,you will understand that you gave up your US ness when you became Canadian. It is based on your intent at that time. You can PROVE your intent by the facts. They are obliged to accept that. That is the law. They have no choice.
Whether or not you go to the trouble of obtaining a CLN is up to you. You owe them nothing.
Anne #1. P.S. You have no duty, need or anything else to divulge anything about your accounts or any other accounts. You are not a US person. Sounds like your employer is a lawyer. He should have the resources to confirm what I say.
Anne #1. This is part of the State dep’t manual I referred to. You will see what I meant. Naturalizing (is that a word? in a foreign state (Canada) with intent caused you to lose your US citizenship
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120544.pdf
@Anne #1
While your case sounds very good for relinquishing, it is important to know whether you are dual at birth. Did your Mom come here because she was a Canadian? You mentioned she filed dual returns and was/is a snowbird.
There are problems with the idea of an expatriating act (regardless of intention) when one is born a dual. Please make sure you read up on this; I may have missed something but have read your comments completely through at least 3 times now and don’t see enough information to establish one way or the other. Very important to be sure about this.
@bubblebustin
ok, now I see it. Yes out of wedlock, that is correct. My apologies.
Tricia M why make it more difficult? Anne #1 said she applied for Canadian citizenship at age 30 and became Canadian a yr. later.
@Duke
It is not an issue of making it more difficult. It is an issue of being correct before giving information.
A dual at birth cannot relinquish as you have repeatedly suggested. I am being protective of Anne.
I disagree. She already stated she wasn’t a dual at birth and then you muddy the water. Her case is as straightforward as can be.
No need to apologize, Tricia, but thanks! I used to think that the USG was cutting the unwed mother a break, but as it turns out, they don’t want to have to give US citizenship to all those bastard children of servicemen rolling through peasant villages in countries at war with the US. The motivation behind the ruling smacks of racism, condones rape and seems especially hypocritical of a country that comes down so hard on deadbeat dads. Disgusting.
@Duke of Devon
With all due respect, I do not care at all whether you agree or not. Once again, you accuse me (as you have others) of creating problems. Such as your previous accusation that I am guilty of not doing “due diligence,” Why you have a problem with everyone here contributing and trying to make sure all the information is out there before making a final decision is curious. Are only certain people here allowed to speak? Yourself? Kal C? Are you the only person here with enough knowledge to contribute?
I do not see anywhere where she indicates she was not a dual at birth. (If you can find this sentence or phrase, kindly reproduce it so I can understand this). One might assume she wasn’t because she took CDN citizenship later. However, the citizenship of her mother at Anne’s time of birth is not discernible from her description. The question comes up as to why her mother would come to Canada in the first place. Was it because she was a citizen? If she was, it could create problems. Canadian citizenship law prior to 2009 has its own problems and issues. The idea here, is to cover ALL the bases so there are absolutely no problems or surprises when the relinquishment is applied for. I am very sorry you do not seem to understand this but it does not add up to “muddying the waters.” And your own advice to her is to “slow down.” Why the big hurry?
She does indicate later that her mother is a dual citizen. Again, a very good idea to be sure of when the mother was dual. For all we know, she was a Canadian living in the US when Anne was born.We all know how unreasonable the US can be in determining whether one can relinquish, they have become much more aggressive about denying these applications. Considering the fact that Anne’s job will be on the line if a relinquishment is not granted, it is to her benefit to make damn sure she was not dual at birth no matter how improbable that may seem.
I agree, Tricia. Some people don’t seem to understand the nature of a blog – to me it’s where relevant ideas get aired. It’s not an industry journal for cripes sake!
This whole dual from birth thing is pretty interesting as it applies to Canadians especially. I moved to Canada as a child with my Canadian mother and took the Canadian oath of citizenship many years later. Since then, Canada’s Citizenship Act changed making me a Canadian at birth through my mother. I’ve since reaffirmed my US citizenship, but for those who haven’t, which would they claim, or get away with claiming when in Canada the Canadian at birth status supersedes the other? Being a dual at birth exempts you from the exit tax, provided you’ve certified five years of taxes, but relinquishing solves other problems. Thoughts?
@Tricia and others
Would becoming a dual citizen at birth after the fact negate the intention to relinquish US citizenship at the time you took the oath of Canadian citizenship? Maybe it’s not an either/or situation, but allows people like me to have BOTH! Don’t think State will see it that way, though!
Appreciate all the comments! I do not have a Canadian parent. My mother is Dutch and can trace her ancestry to New Amsterdam or New York, NY pre- revolutionary war. My step – father and mother came because of a job opportunity. At this time I am not sure what I can do without my employer’s consent, but I CAN get rid of my political membership and donate the $75.00 to fighting! I have an awesome employer and do not want him entangled in this mess. When he interviewed me 8 years ago for my position, he said “I understand from the agency that you have a little boy in elementary school (grade 3) and I would like to hire you. What kinda of hours will work around your family commitments?” I was able to come to the office after I sent my son to school and leave before my son came home. A major savings in daycare! I will be here until he retires
@Ann#!
Absolutely delighted to hear that your mother is not Canadian!!!!!
I hope you know that in no way was I trying to frighten you. I have been at this now for 3 years and am continually learning. Anything that is less than iron clad prompts investigating. For some of us, it has completely taken over our lives and we tend to take it really (perhaps overly so) seriously.
Again congratulations and look forward to hearing how the rest of your story unfolds. Oh, and thanks for clarifying as well. 🙂
@bubblebustin,
Thanks for your kind comments. Really appreciated!
I have new things to research now! Have no real idea about the answers to what you’ve posed. Always something new!
@Ann, I concur with the Duke of Devon.
1. You relinquished your US Nationality decades ago.
2. Unfortunately because of FATCA, at a minimum you must now document your personal file to prove that fact. 8 US Code puts the burden on YOU to prove that you relinquished.
3. Working for lawyers, documentation should be second nature to you. You will need to build a file that includes the US Law that applied when you relinquished. You will need copies of your naturalisation file. You may want to swear out an Affadavit or Statutory Declaration of the facts before a notary or lawyer. That affadavit would include the statement that you voluntarily and intentionally relinquished.
4. A CLN is NOT required under US Law to lose citizenship if you performed an expatriating act. It IS required for those who renounce.
5. You will need to sit down with your employer and your file and your statutory declaration and make sure THEY are satisfied you are not a US National.