“TaxConnections” asks “Shall I Stay or Shall I Go?”
Besides first determining if you are indeed a U.S. citizen, some further self-analysis is necessary. Anyone, and I mean anyone, should comprehend what is in store for “Americans Abroad” reading this and listening to John Richardson’s interview with CHQR News Talk 77, Dave Taylor, in Calgary, AB:
When it comes to FATCA, there are four kinds of *Americans Abroad*
…there are really four kinds of U.S. Taxable Persons abroad. Each one of them has his own set of problems.
…
They can be grouped as follows:
File U.S. tax returns? U.S. tax compliant? What is their problem?
Yes Yes Inability to live normal life*
Yes No Subject to penalties for mistakes**
No Yes Don’t have any income***
No No OMG moment is coming****
Dave Taylor got it and summarized:
It’s unbelievable that the US Government is going after people who in many cases, for decades, have not considered themselves to be Americans, American citizens, but indeed Canadian citizens, for money they don’t owe. It’s unbelievable the US Government has the audacity to think it has a claim on the assets of those people. It’s incomprehensible THAT THE HARPER GOVERNMENT IS PLAYING RIGHT ALONG. So we will watch this story because I think it’s a gross violation of rights and miscarriage of justice.
This analysis / summary of the absurdity and injustice for *US Persons Abroad* should be understandable to anyone who reads it or listens to the interview.
Whether *anyone* would include US Congresspersons whose job should be to understand and make reasonable effective change in legislation is debatable. Why is that?
@ Kathy
PierreD and The_Animal. Uh huh, sounds good to me too.
@ Ann #1
Think about all those hoops they would have you jump through just to get an SS number so that you can back file US tax forms, only to ultimately jump through more hoops to give up your USness in order to NOT have to file US tax forms for the rest of your life. Doesn’t that sound just a little bit insane? If you go straight to a relinquishment based on not having exhibited any trace of USness since your Canadian citizenship ceremony then you could avoid a lot of hoops, as long as they remain reasonable about these things. Do you think it’s worth a try maybe? At least look over the questionnaire and form DS-4079 that the Calgary Consulate e-mails out to potential relinquishers. We can provide them if you don’t feel comfortable making consulate contact at this stage. You can always ask us about the questions. You have to give absolutely truthful answers but they can be finessed. You want the preponderance of evidence to point to not being a US citizen and therefore no more hoops to jump through — just sit back and wait for the CLN to arrive.
Lol, Kathy. How about a double bill with Myther Stack and the Fatcanatics!
I renewed and used my US passport, and paid US taxes and voted after I obtained my dual citizenship in my country of residence, so I would have to renounce. However, I may be eligible for an EU passport and if/when that finally happens (that would mean I would have 3 passports) it seems to me that would give me another chance to relinquish my US citizenship. The obvious thing is not to vote in US elections, but entering the US requires that I use the US passport – does that negate a claim of relinquishment?
Getting so sick of the USA and its extraterritorial machinations and the fact that they just slammed the wall up (raising the expatriation fee for renouncing up to $2,350) bc they want to keep their tax base (their argument being if you pay the renunciation fee, you’re a FATCAT; if you don’t you’re stuck because they might revoke the right of relinquishment – you heard it here first: if the US feels that the tide isn’t being stemmed, they’ll yank the right of relinquishment and make renunciations the only way to expatriate after a hefty fine of course).
I think I might go out and go photograph some common loons at Maplewood Conservation Area considering the “state of mind” that I’m in. Perfect subject, wouldn’t you say (gone “loony”)?
@Steve
Using your US passport to travel to the US prior to your naturalising to the EU country should have no bearing. Even using it after naturalising should not be a problem. On Form 4079, for the question “14. What passport do you use to travel to and from the US?” you can answer “US passport, as required by law”, and hopefully for the next question “15. What passport do you use to travel to and from other countries?”, you can answer XX passport.
@Steve
Yes, it would negate your claim to relinquishment if you used your US passport AFTER receiving the EU citizenship. You can’t say that you obtained the EU passport with the INTENTION of giving up your US citizenship if you then continue to use your US passport. ANY ‘American’ activity after receiving another passport will negate any claim to relinquishment.
.
PS. Steve.
I assume that you have a US birthplace and are concerned about being challenged at the US border?
After you get your EU citizenship and then document your relinquishment at a US embassy, you can ask for a letter of proof to offer should you be challenged at the US border. Using your US passport is not a good idea, some have managed a successful relinquishment after doing this (they claimed they had been bullied into using it by the offical) but I would not chance it.
@Ann#1
Welcome to our Brock village. You are among kind and well informed people all over the world who will help show you the best path for you. Read this extensive, well informed blog. You will learn much.
I had my OMG moment too, 2 years ago. Luckily I found this fantastic blog. I was able to determine the right course for me to take from reading Brock.
I am American born and came to Canada with my American husband. We were 21. We became Cdn citizens in 1993. That magic date enabled me to relinguish. I went last year to request formally my relinguishment at the US Counsel. No payment needed or tax forms or FBARs. I waited 9 months for my CLN (citizen loss of nationalty). I am free now. I never had a US passport but I did file US taxes up to and including the year I became a Canadian citizen. I never owed any US taxes, did them myself and did not have that much money in the bank to have to claim FBARs. My husband and our son died from Cancer in 99 and 2001 so they did not have to go through this invasion of our privacy and rights.
Neither of them ever had a US passport., just a Canadian one.
We traveled to the US sometimes to visit relatives. This was before 9/11 when passports were needed. No US border agents gave us any problems. It seems the USA has become a crazy watch dog since 9/11 and does not want to let anyone leave easily. ( I ad an Irish Setter like that. If he was not going wih us he would try to bite as we left the house). I have traveled to the USA on my Canadian passport and only one time did a border agent say to me that there is no such thing as a dual citizen and that I was ONLY an American. Reading this blog does show that all border guards are not alike and have their own interpretation of the law.
Ann#1 I think you can relinguish with no problem. Please pass on what you know and contribute to ADCS. It is so crucial we take this to our Canadian Courts. And WIN. And again, welcome.
Here’s an interesting response to John Richardson’s (Citizenship Solutions) piece:
http://taxsamurai.com/2014/09/four-kinds-americans-abroad-response/
This comment by John was interesting too:
Right John. They can call me anything they like but they canNOT call me American — never was, am not, will never be.
Further to I am not American … I am not “abroad” either. I live in the country of my birth, Canada. For me, America is abroad, not Canada. I am female though so if you are into this kind of phraseology I am “a broad” but I’m quite tiny so I am not “a broad broad”.
@EmBee
….like your broad sense of humour.
@ Shovel
… like your broad mindedness.
Regarding travel to the US for those who must…a good travel ID is the Nexus card. Its no good for flying but by car it fills the bill. I cross the border weekly and have never been harassed about living in Canada. Nexus is a cooperative venture between the US and Canada and my sense is that customs people love them because they’re tailor-made for frequent border crossers (i.e. shoppers). Even Americans aren’t so dumb as to dry up the cross border trade and Nexus supports that. I know its not for everyone but if you have family n the US and you’re reasonably close to the border its a godsend.
@The_Animal, revoking the right to relinquish would mean Congress getting back to work on the Immigration Act, which would also force them to deal with the illegal immigration issues. Don’t look for that anytime soon as the most recent attempt was such a disaster, Obama couldn’t even pull one of his “executive order” tricks as a work around. I wouldn’t rule out changes in the future to make relinquishing much, much harder but that’s s task for another administration.
@Lake Superior Guy: FWIW at least one ex-US citizen has had quite a few problems trying to get a NEXUS card: it took a court case just to get State to tell him why he was rejected. Haven’t heard any updates.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/02/22/renunciant-wins-foia-case-over-trusted-traveler-program-card-denial/
@LakeSuperiorGuy When I got my Nexus card in 2004, the officer insisted I was a U.S. citizen because I was born in USA.
I insisted I was not because I lost my U.S. Citizenship when I became a Canadian citizen. She asked if I renounced. I replied yes when I became a Canadian. She then asked if I renounced at a U.S. Consulate. I said no, but I did it at my Canadian citizenship ceremony. She then again insisted I was still a U.S. Citizen. We had a
She reluctantly issued my Nexus card to me as a Canadian “because that’s how you applied. However, she stressed I should always enter U.S. as an American because I could then stay as long as I want, could return to live and was not required to say where I was going.
I truly think she was trying to be helpful, but I didn’t not take her advice. I always entered U.S. as a Canadian. I did not renew Nexus issue of my birthplace did not arise again until 2011
I did not renew Nexus when it expired in 2009 because I did not want to have the debate again. The only time since then my U.S. Birthplace was an issue was in 2011 when a border guard politely advised me to get an American passport. I smiled, nodded and went on my way. In multiple crossings after that it was never raised.
Since my mother’s death in January, I have vowed to never travel to U.S. again.
Interestingly, my discussion with the Nexus officer was in 2004, two months after the IRS requirement to report relinquishments to U.S. Consulate. I do not know if that was a coincidence or not. She did not mention anything about taxes and I was blissfully unaware of it until 2011 when it hit the Canadian media.
Hi, Blaze.
Blaze I did combine your two comments. There might be some that you still need tweaked, which I can do.
You have come a long way with your therapy to be able to enter all of this compared to only a short while ago. Hope you are doing better each and every day. It’s good to have you back. Take care!
@Blaze
If typing in longhand is an indicator of how far you’ve come in your recovery, congratulations!
@EmBee
Lol. I used “I’mabroad” as a moniker somewhere, and always fighting the battle of becoming a broad broad.
I have been reading up on relinquishing and think I can make a case for relinquishing ??? Here are the facts:
1. immigrated in 1973
2. age 10
3. no US passport
4. no social security number
5.applied for citizenship in 1993 and sworn in 1994 – I was pregnate and my husband wanted us to all be Canadians.
6.Canadian passport
7.married a Canadian
8. never registered my children born 1993 and 1997.
However, somewhere in the USA I had a delinquent father. A recent inquiry about his where about has led me to believe he has died. I haven’t seen him since 1969. I welcome comments.
Ann # 1. Perfect. You fit all the criteria. Tell them you intended to relinquish when you became Canadian and don’t mention taxes. If they give you grief, insist. Intent is based on your actions. Everything you have done is consistent with intent to relinquish. No fee. also no obligation to file any returns. Good luck. Consider ADCS in your thoughts.
@Blaze
Sorry about your Nexus hassles. I applied as a permanent resident only so have US citizenship on my card. BTW I am always asked where I’m going but its always either A) the local border town for gas and such or B) to visit relatives in Michigan and Wisconsin. My wife and I are 60-ish and look it…I guess we don’t seem too nefarious. If tax compliance ever becomes a criterion for crossing the border we’re screwed…but so is every border town that relies on Canadian trade and that would include Buffalo…Detroit…Sault Ste. Marie…InternationaL Falls etc. Americans would be stupid to kill that cash cow. Every Chamber of Commerce in every US border town should be screaming bloody murder about FATCA because it has the potential of scaring away cross border shoppers and travellers with US taint and would drain more money from businesses than would be realized by collecting bloody FBAR fines.
@Anne
I am just reading up on your situation. One thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that there is no way your children are US citizens. While you did reside in the US for at least 10 years, you were not living in the US for any period past age 14 (either 5 years prior to Nov 11, 1986 or 2 years after Nov 11,1986).This is a requisite condition for passing on citizenship so you are not able to pass it to your children.
Ann, one thing I may have missed while scanning comments but I don’t think has been asked, were you dual at birth? Was your mother Canadian?
I haven’t read everything relating to you Anne, you only need to have lived in the US for one year prior to their birth to pass US citizenship on to your children if they were born out of wedlock, if that’s the case.
@Bubblebustin
That is actually not true.
@Tricia
All the posted info I’ve read regarding US citizenship by decent through mothers out of wedlock has been consistently the same. I’d be interested to see information to the contrary. Can you lead me to something?