“TaxConnections” asks “Shall I Stay or Shall I Go?”
Besides first determining if you are indeed a U.S. citizen, some further self-analysis is necessary. Anyone, and I mean anyone, should comprehend what is in store for “Americans Abroad” reading this and listening to John Richardson’s interview with CHQR News Talk 77, Dave Taylor, in Calgary, AB:
When it comes to FATCA, there are four kinds of *Americans Abroad*
…there are really four kinds of U.S. Taxable Persons abroad. Each one of them has his own set of problems.
…
They can be grouped as follows:
File U.S. tax returns? U.S. tax compliant? What is their problem?
Yes Yes Inability to live normal life*
Yes No Subject to penalties for mistakes**
No Yes Don’t have any income***
No No OMG moment is coming****
Dave Taylor got it and summarized:
It’s unbelievable that the US Government is going after people who in many cases, for decades, have not considered themselves to be Americans, American citizens, but indeed Canadian citizens, for money they don’t owe. It’s unbelievable the US Government has the audacity to think it has a claim on the assets of those people. It’s incomprehensible THAT THE HARPER GOVERNMENT IS PLAYING RIGHT ALONG. So we will watch this story because I think it’s a gross violation of rights and miscarriage of justice.
This analysis / summary of the absurdity and injustice for *US Persons Abroad* should be understandable to anyone who reads it or listens to the interview.
Whether *anyone* would include US Congresspersons whose job should be to understand and make reasonable effective change in legislation is debatable. Why is that?
They just keep justifying the unjustifiable. CBT came into law as a punishment for deserters of the Civil War. It remains a ((( punishment )))). America is punishing its expats for no good reason and trying to justify it with lies and trumped up excuses. The problem is, it is LAW, and how does one get something like that undone, when it brings in revenue from people who seemingly can’t defend themselves against the 700 ton gorilla?
@ Calgary411: Thanks for posting this. Great, succinct description of what we are facing.
Who can live a so called “normal life” outside the U.S. with foreign family to think of? The only people I can think of who could maybe do so are short term expats. Long term you really can’t save, bank or live with foreign family as the rules are so in conflict with each other and with being able to conduct your affairs the same way any other law abiding Canadian can. It’s impossible.
Freaking out and having my OMG moment! I came here as a small child. I have never held a US passport nor do I have a social security number. My first thought was to try and obtain a social security number which I am finding out isn’t as easy as one thinks. I have lived here 42 years, 20 of which I have been a citizen of Canada. I have been told by others in a similar position that they had appointments in Calgary with the Embassy. They took a birth certificate, landed immigration papers, prove of Canadian citizenship and a Canadian passport. Their application was denied. In fact, the individual conducting the interview was focused more on why they had a Canadian passport insisting that they do not have the right to use a Canadian passport. They were told they are only allowed to use a US passport to travel because one must travel on a passport from the country of their birth. They were told to come back when they could document every year of their absence. I am having difficulty locating complete school records, medical records because doctors have retired an even CRA doesn’t have records that go back that far. I found out that I should be filing from a co – worker who is a Canadian that lived in the US for five years and was trying to determine if she had an obligation to file. Now, I find out about FBARS! I am a bookkeeper for a law office. My employer is Canadian! They want detailed information about his pooled trust accounts that I sign on. I don’t think so! He is concerned about security breaches. I don’t blame him!
Wow….I don’t fit into any of these 4 categories. I am the 5th category. I don’t file, I am not compliant (or even care to be) I and if there is an OMG moment coming, I haven’t felt it yet. I’m sure many reading are in this same 5th category with me. Screw off USA! I owe you NOTHING!!!
Welcome to Isaac Brock, Ann. You have come to the right place for some information and advice.
Slow down. Read, read, read and get the instructions on what you need to produce to expatriate from the source (see below). Start with the Consulate Report Directory and the links on the right hand side of the home page of Isaac Brock. Ask questions after you have done some thorough reading — some of your questions will be answered there. You will also find support here — no one else will know what you are feeling right now than those of us who have experienced similarly.
You and the company you work for need to determine if you did anything “US” after the date of becoming a Canadian citizen. If you can claim that as your relinquishment date (so expatriation by a claim to relinquishment (and no fee) rather than a renunciation @ $2,3500, a lot of the horror of this may go away, both for yourself and your employer. It sounds from your comment here that will be the case. Yes, FBARs require that anyone with signing authority on accounts provide that financial information to Treasury — in fact it is now done electronically — FINCEN114. FINCEN, Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. Canada will not collect any penalties for failure to have filed FBARs on behalf of the US. The law firm that you work for (and you) could have a dilemma and they had best get up to speed on FATCA and FBAR/FINCEN114. It sounds, though, you may be OK to claim relinquishment.
The information you got about appointments in Calgary sounds wonky. You should get the information on what is needed directly from the U.S. Consulate in Calgary by emailing them at: Calgary-ACS@state.gov. Do as above before that step though. Unless their procedure has changed, they have been one of the best Consulates in Canada for expatriations. You can read others’ experiences at the Consulate Report Directory, maintained and linked here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/. You are a Canadian citizen and anyone with a Canadian passport is a Canadian citizen and has every right to use a Canadian passport — although it is the law (that generally has been shown a blind eye at the border) that a *US Citizen* must ONLY enter and leave the US with a US passport. (The Canadian officials have something to say about how you enter Canada — and it is not with a US passport unless you are only a US citizen.)
@ Ann
Welcome and I see calgary411 has given you a good start at pushing through your OMG moment. I’d just like to suggest you qualify your name a bit since we already have an Ann commenting at Brock — e.g. Ann2, AnnB or whatever you want. Thanks. Also I’d like to ditto what calgary411 said about the Calgary Consulate. My husband’s relinquishment appointment in February went quite smoothly there. I truly hope they haven’t been given some sort of directive to make things more difficult for people. Hang in there!
@ Ann,
The important thing is don’t act too fast. First, determine if you actually are a US citizen, and then determine what course of action you feel is best to take. Do some reading, ask questions — a lot of us here are, or were, in fairly similar situations, and are happy to share our experiences and point you to applicable law/policy documents, etc, regarding this, so you can evaluate what course of action is best for you.
You may have relinquished your US citizenship when you became a Canadian citizen. When you became a Canadian citizen, did you have the intention of terminating your US citizenship by that act? Did you believe you were terminating your US citizenship, and acted accordingly (as a non-US citizen) since that date? One thing, for example, you never had a US passport.
I’d recommend a couple of links from the sidebar as starters:
New to This? START HERE: Synopsis of Information Session given by John Richardson
Important! If Relinquishing Act Performed Prior to June 4, 2004 has links to several articles.
Welcome to Brock. I’d like to say don’t be too freaked out, but I know that may sound frivolous, as OMG Day is the scariest thing I ever experienced. But we’re all here to help each other and share what we have learned going through this, so I hope that brings you both useful practical information and some comfort to know you’re not alone.
@ Ann,
Re your friends’ meetings at Calgary, where they were asked for documentation for every year of absence, could you clarify – were they there to renounce or to apply for a social security number?
I was under the impression that persons living in Canada had to go to an SS office in the US to apply for an SS number (that was a few years ago, though). At any rate, I have heard of at least one SS office (Great Falls, Montana) asking applicants to produce proof of every year outside the US, and I’ve heard of other SS offices asking for proof only for every decade (slightly less ridiculous and difficult).
I hadn’t heard of anyone expatriating being asked to provide proof of residence outside the US, either by year or decade. So, I was wondering if your friends were applying for SSNs.
This title to the article is making me think of “The Clash” song.
“Darlin’ you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say that you are mine
I’ll be here ’til the end of time
So you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
It’s always tease tease tease
You’re happy when I’m on my knees
One day is fine and next is black
So if you want me off your back
Well come on an’ let me know
Should I Stay or should I go?
Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
An’ if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me know
This indecision’s buggin’ me
If you don’t want me, set me free
Exactly whom I’m supposed to be
Don’t you know which clothes even fit me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?”
“If you say that you are mine
I’ll be here ’til the end of time” <— These two lyrics scare the s*** out of me.
PierreD, add me to that category. My response to the “You Have TO FILE!!!” is a prompt and visible “middle finger”
Who wrote those lyrics, Animal? No help from Levin et al.
We write the next verse — our verse to make their song our own.
The punk group – “The Clash”, it’s their song “Should I Stay Or Should I Go”
Ann ,I believe your well meaning friends are confusing two separate issues. The need to document each year of your life is relevant to obtaining a social security number.
You DO NOT want a social security number. That would be the same as admitting or claiming that you are still a US citizen.
Much better if you intended to relinquish your US citizenship when you became Canadian.
The State department is supposed to use preponderance of evidence to determine intent. If you didn’t have a US passport, didn’t own property there, didn’t file taxes and so on, then the evidence is in your favour.
It’s quite likely that you are not American and have no obligation to file anything.
See the link to for those who expatriated before June 2004 on the right of the website.
The link to the right
Thank you for your kindness! I have truly been miserable. Regarding my friend’s experience, she went to apply in 2012 for a social security number. Apparently, if you are over the age of 12, they require that you appear in person for an interview to explain why you do not have a number. They asked her for school or medical records as prove that she had resided in Canada the whole time. They seemed very suspicious that she would not have a number despite her telling them that she came here as a toddler, that her parents never applied for a number. We are 51 years old and have lived here most of our lives. I was 10. If you homeschooled, or attended religious schools have fun getting records. Homeschoolers or religious schools were very loosely regulated. The Ministry of Education in each province where I have lived do not have records on file for me. Is it so hard to understand that we simple don’t have a number? My mother did not apply for one on my behalf because she believed that you filed taxes based on residence. She has been doing a dual tax return since the 1990’s but only because she was a snow bird and worked sometimes in the RV park In Yuma and then later collected Social Security. She did not do a tax return from 1973 till sometime in the 1990’s.She doesn’t even know what a FBAR is and nobody ever contacted her from the IRS to ask for one.
Ann#1 Do you understand why it isn’t in your interest to pursue a SS number?
As KalC says you may well no longer be American. That would probably be “a good thing”. Take your time, read, read and read some more. We are here to help.
@ Ann#1,
Thanks for clarifying that about your friends’ experience.
It’s deplorable that people (civil servants working for SSA) are so narrow-minded they don’t realise that up til about 25 years ago, it was extremely normal *not* to have an SSN until a person got their first job. SSNs for infants only became common when it became mandatory that a child have one in order for the parent to claim the child tax deduction.
At any rate, definitely do not apply for a SSN at this time. At this point, read up – as Calgary said, read, read, read – to determine if you even have been a US citizen since 1992.
Another link I’d suggest looking at is DS-4079, Request for Determination of Possible Loss of US Citizenship, the 5 page Department of State questionnaire used in relinquishment applications.
I got my SSN in 2011. I went to Bellingham WA and had to have proof of residence for each decade. Since I moved here when I was two. I was fortunate that my high school records reached back for many years. This was the process that I understood I had to do before I went to Bellingham and it worked out fine (although she defined the decades differently than I did!).
I do wish though, that I could have relinquished my citizenship back-dated to the early 70’s but I had done something demonstrating that I considered myself to be a US Citizen.
Good luck Ann. My father relinquished his US citizenship in 2003 back-dated to his acquisition of Canadian citizenship back in the 60’s. It sounds like you should be able to do the same.
A US passport? For example if you compare the US passport it’s got 174 countries with either visa waiver or visa on arrival. For the Irish passport, it’s got 171 visa waiver or visa on arrival countries. So Kazakhstan requires an Irish citizen a visa, and Brazil charges US citizens $100+ for a visa, and the other one I can’t say.
Effectively an Irish passport is every bit as good as a US and save the fee for Brazil – not to mention saving CTB.
@Ann, I and many others here are quite interested in your story. There are many others who are in a similar situation as yourself with signature authority on accounts. We don’t hear too much from them.
Now you may see the hypocrisy of the US and talk about freedom and the inalienable rights of liberty and the pursuit of happiness (yet only really applies if you live in the US – although the US Constitution does not say that it only applies to US citizens resident in the US). As others suggest you may not be a “US Person.”
There is the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (ADCS) with lawsuit to help stop FATCA. There is also legal action in the US. We hope for success of these measures although that may be years in the making while FATCA is here now.
Please join our community and help spread the word about The Isaac Brock Society and ADCS.
Not to get offtrack on the seriousness of requirements to get our lives back — personally, I feel that if I can’t produce the documentation to U.S. requirements and the U.S. can’t either, then they must not give me a social security number and I am not a U.S. citizen. Sounds like common sense to me. Cut to the chase.
@PierreD
It’s like this. Some people look down at their ankles and see shackles. You didn’t.
Whether you qualify for a 5th category would depend on whether you see yourself an “American abroad”. I suspect not.
@Bubblebustin
I would say most in #4 don’t consider themselves Americans abroad, but the whole problem is that America does. I was in 4, but I’m ready to say FUUSA and join PierreD and The_Animal.
Sounds like a great band name BTW – PierreD and The_Animal. 🙂
@ Ann
My sympathies. Take your time, learn as much as you can (good start coming here) and make informed decisions. Lots of good advice has already been given.