Brillinat @JackieBugnion comment on Rober Wood post "Dear Mr. President, Why I'm Leaving America" http://t.co/ZwTdG60ncL – Not abt #FATCA
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) August 17, 2014
The above tweet references a comment by Jackie Bugnion to a fascinating Robert Wood post.
This post already has approximately 50,000 views and some very intelligent comments. For those who are inclined, it is an opportunity to help shape the “narrative”.
But, there is a lesson. The comments from the Homelanders demonstrate how difficult it is for them to understand this. I conclude from their comments that this should NOT be framed as an issue of “taxation” but as an issue of “life control” or perhaps “forced citizenship”.
Human beings can only understand what is in their range of experience. “Homelanders” (by definition) cannot imagine or understand life outside the Homeland.
Yeah- I thought this bit of news deserved its own thread too. I think it is HUGE and I wonder why all those compliant people don’t flood Washington with letters like this. They risk nothing in doing so.
I am also beginning to think about the word “taxation”. Why would it be called taxation if one gets nothing in return?
Dictionary: taxation: the government`s act of collecting money from citizens and businesses within its domain to support its operations.
Is that all? First the “within its domain” jumps out at me, then “operations”. Maybe now I need to look up the definition of “government”?
@Polly, the word “kakistocracy” might be a good jumping off point for defining “government” in the context of the US. 😉
Actually US persons abroad are not the only ones who are having a tough time. 10% of Swiss live abroad, as opposed to 2% Americans. The Swiss abroad are united to rase their concerns, unlike a weak ACA counterpart. At 1/10th the size of the estimated 7 million US citizens, they have united to gain attention to their woes. Maybe IBS and/or ADCS would consider reaching out to them?
GERMAN and to the point:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtschaft/geld/Der-Zorn-der-Auslandschweizer-auf-die-Banken-waechst/story/13383351
ENGLISH:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-banks-slammed-for-expat-business-policy/40554828
@NotThatTara, much of this is very slowly starting to settle in and allow some clarity. I honestly believe that most homelanders to include politicians simply “do not get it.” However there is a powerful minority that is vindictive and hateful, likely envious.
I almost think there needs to be a counterpart to American Citizens Abroad something like “US Persons At Home.”
Having looked at some census information and in particular the UK, there are a whole lot of persons that the USA may call their own while those same persons consider the USA simply one of many other foreign countries.
American Citizens Abroad is just that, US Citizens who have gone abroad and likely are planning on going home.
I make it clear in my town that I am not an American Citizen, I am as much a native as anyone else, my only plans on “going home” is going down the street.
I would guess that dichotomy does not exist with Swiss Citizens abroad.
@All I am in agreement with @Polly that we need to work on our story in a way that better connects with homelanders.
I have used ‘double taxation without representation.’ Double taxation without services. ? Then there is the issue that most Americans abroad don’t want services but just to be left alone. Likewise I don’t care about representation but being left alone is of more importance.
Americans in America see Uncle Sam, Americans Abroad see Uncle Extortion. Not this one, but maybe it may spark some ideas.
It would be nice if we could get some slogans.
“tax” in and of itself is a word that turns off people. They think abroad and they think people wealthy enough to move abroad.
I would like to think that in the comment sections of some articles that the number, detail, and perseverance of those affected by CBT are winning out against the nay sayers. Forbes and Mr. Wood have an interesting system where off the cuff comments don’t get “called out” so remain more hidden.
Looking forward to the Human Rights complaint to back our case.
@George Good comment. Expat has the same connotation of somewhere else temporarily but destined to return home.
Yes all very complex, especially when “tax” is involved. I tried to focus on one aspect – the inequity, and unfairness of getting my pension fund taxed by the U.S. in a way that denies benefit.
We might play with the ‘land of the free and brave.’ Freedom. That is an easier concept than tax.
I`m just thinking we might give it another name than “tax”. Unless most people believe that taxes are NOT for the people. But maybe America is so used to this ( with no health insurance and most of the money going to war efforts….) that they think we shouldn’t raise any arguments against it. I could imagine that people in Denmark ( who pay the highest taxes in the world and have the least tax evasion at the same time) would revolt if their taxes were used in any other way than to benefit themselves and their own rightful interests.
As a born-in-Canada Canadian citizen, why should my income (just because a spouse is American (and seriously thinking of dropping American citizenship)) go to fund American healthcare and pay for people who refuse to get off their @$$es and find work for themselves? Can someone give me the explanation of why I should funnel dollars into the US tax system? Why should the IRS have access to MY tax records? The only thing the IRS is going to get out of me is my middle finger and an “F-off and die!”
JC: Like you, I am looking forward to when we have some news about our Human Rights Complaint. Tomorrow (Aug. 18) the committee begins its deliberations on the complaints they have received in the past 6 months. We need to collectively cross our fingers that ours will be amongst the ones selected to move forward in the process. Thanks so much for keeping it in the forefront of your mind and in your comments.
@MuzzledNoMore
Here’s hoping that yours and everyone else’s hard work has paid off!
The number of view is now 96,888.
We can only hope some of the people not commenting are getting it right.
If you read here, my thanks, “Marilyn”, for your letter to President Obama — that more than a few commenters can’t even fathom is a real letter.
There may be some homelanders in touch with this issue, but seems not many — and we also see it in the comments at Canadian sites. It takes a tough hide and a good stomach to not let the commenters get to you, even when you know they will be there going into having something published. Each time I read through such comments, both sides, as are presented in this Forbes piece, I am distressed at the chasm in understanding.
Give, give, give @ http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
I guess the author of this letter can now be labeled “economically unpatriotic” What a disgusting phrase in light of the facts these people are facing. How misleading it is. This letter is heart wrenching and is just one of thousands that could be written. Bravo to Marilyn for having the courage to write it and release it to the press.
I couldn’t keep myself from posting a comment also. Thanks to Mr. Woods for helping get our message accross, and for his helpful and supportive comments. Having been bought up in Canada, I think an important part of our culture is our open-mindedness. Reading such absurd comments from Homelanders in response to the letter is quite an eye opener. I have cousins in the US who have lost their jobs and homes… and still insist they live in the greatest country in the world. The way they were raised has made it utterly impossible for some Americans (since I just said we were open-minded, I will emphasize “some”) to understand what is going on with this issue.
A great excerpt from Jackie’s comment on the woodie’s article:
“What Congress has imposed on Americans abroad is comparable to the Stamp Act and other legislation that King George III imposed on the colonies – a mother country imposing laws on its citizens abroad for the exclusive benefit of the home country. Citizenship-based taxation is an absurdity in today’s world of mobile population. The only way for the United States to stop the terrible injustice and prejudice that it is imposing on Americans abroad is to adopt residence-based taxation.”
Very well said!
It was said on the comments on Forbes website that FATCA is similar to the Stamp Act of 1765 which the colonists hated.
What’s interesting with the Stamp Act two things happened. It was repeal by the British Parliament in 1766 and more importantly was instrumental starting the American War of Independence. The Stamp Act was one tax too much.
With FATCA I believe it won’t be repealed by Congress but will be settled by US, Canadian, and EU courts. For the US though FATCA will hasten countries turning away from the US dollar as a settlement currency. The implications for the US are important – a lower US standard of living.
Another good comment from somebody going buy the pen name Kyla4u:
“As a US person living outside the US I can confirm that we have no privileges. I do not have a right to any benefits including Medicaid, Unemployment, Food Stamps, or Disability or any other benefits that normal tax payers inside the US would qualify for. I may receive Social Security at some point as I did work in the US when I was younger – but those are benefits I earned while living in the US – I would receive nothing for the time that I did not live and work in the US. Additionally, Social Security benefits frequently are reduced for those living outside the US.
While I live in a ‘friendly’ country, if anything should happen here and I need the help of the US Embassy to leave the country, I – like any other US person living here – would receive a bill for their services as such services are not free and are not covered by any tax I pay to the US.
I do not have a representative in Congress as I do not live and have not lived in any state in the US for many years. Consequently, I cannot seek the support of any Congressional office regarding double taxation between the US in the country in which I live.”
Another very valid point raised by someone named Steve, which all too often gets overlooked:
“I am an American living in Costa Rica. The frustration of trying to comply with the US is overwhelming. The challenges above are multiplied 10-fold when you own a business. The US wants to collect tax on your REVENUES if you own a foreign company versus your profits. It makes it impossible to comply if you own a simple restaurant as I do where profit margins are very low.”
The Woodie followed up with this:
“Steve, your point about owning a business is especially noteworthy. It need not be a huge business for the US tax complexity to begin. It might be just a business to keep you and your family fed. The controlled foreign corporation rules, for example, are quite difficult. The potential US tax consequences of failing to comply are frightening, even life changing.”
In summary, the controlled foreign corporation (CFC) rules make it impossible for an expat to own a small family business and be in US tax compliance. The corporate veil is completely ignored by the US and all revenues (not profits) considered to be taxable income. If that is not slavery, I don’t know what is.
@Samuel Adams. I have suggested a business track to this website, then we may interest more business owners and business executives and with this perhaps attract more donations to the ADCS efforts.
The accidental American focus is well developed.
Another track could be those individuals complying and be about strategies.
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The new Roman Empire–U.S.Currancy—The English Language- the desire to collect fees (fines and witholdings for non compliance with Roman laws) (U.S.Law) make the U.S. equal to Rome, in its last days.
Fining banks worldwide for non compliance with U.S. law is so rediculous that if they pay it, they should make the checks payable to Alfonso Capone et il.
Less than 10% of the American public even knows that we are doing such a stupid thing and the rest don’t care because they think that somehow they will end up with some of it. (money that is).
…and that’s why I loathe the entirety of the American homelander public. Why the hell should I play nice with them if they insist on putting their hands in MY and my wife’s pocket; and take food out of my children’s mouths. Anybody does that to my family, it’s a declaration of war.
For those not following the comments on the Forbes article itself, you should know that Marilyn, the author of the letter to Obama has just posted a comment. Let’s all give her the encouragement she deserves!
@jc One thing to work on is how to define the group. I think the term expat doesn’t work. Americans don’t use it in general and the long from, expatriate, comes with lots of baggage in the U.S. Nancy Green’s latest work includes a fantastic quote from the Sun Also Rises about the stereotype of the expatriate: “You’re an expatriate. you’ve lost touch with the soil. You get precious. Fake European standards have ruined you. You drink yourself to death. You become obsessed by sex. You spend all your time talking, not working. you’re an expatriate, see? You hang around in cafes.” “It sounds like a swell life,” I said, “When do I work?” “You don’t work.” Sounds very much like what Victoria Ferrauge has talked about in her blog. Given this baggage, I think Americans would think of expats as being rich. Emigrant might work better, since the image of the emigrant is less prosperous. Accidental American should also be fine.
@wilton
I am finding that even really well informed Americans don’t know much about how Fatca is affecting the world at large.
@ animal
I don’t think that the politicians even really thought about the typical emigrants, especially wives. They tend not to.
Of course, the policy is designed for someone and it seems to be those who owe paperwork rather than mega bucks. After watching six hours of House of Cards back to back on the airplane the thought entered my head that fatca was Representative Rangel’s attempt to stick it to the Dominicans (the Democrats in his district who are vying with the blacks for power, have sent lots of money back home, and are really racist in their anti-fatca comments). Went through an area today ( not in New York) where there used to be lots of shops sending money out to the Dominican Republic and there wasn’t a single sign offering that service.
Publius –
Terminology carefully pondered long long ago.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/12/whatchamacallit/
No useful additional terms ever proposed. I still favor extraterritorial.