Glad to post, Em:
Overseas Americans Week – Recap from AARO
As we tune in, thanks, Victoria and AARO — especially videographer, Mathieu.
Glad to post, Em:
Overseas Americans Week – Recap from AARO
As we tune in, thanks, Victoria and AARO — especially videographer, Mathieu.
I agree 100% with badger on this: “the US government is not our friend – the relationship is entirely adversarial – and all the blame is theirs.”
ACA, AARO, FAWCO and all other expat oriented organisations only need to be in agreement on one thing: CBT must be abolished!
Once that is agreed upon, everyone can work towards the same goal in their own way and coordinate whenever its feasible — not an easy task when scattered across the globe.
Band aids or pieces of chocolate meant to pacify expats only extends the life of CBT. Such symbolic measures should be viewed as attempts to bribe expats into accepting the continuation of the abusive relationship — like when an abusive husband gives his wife flowers between the beatings.
The abolition of CBT needs to be the goal. RBT or bust!
I agree the focus should be entirely on CBT.
If the US had CBT, I personally would not even care about FATCA.
Honestly, the problems I have had due to CBT all pre-date FATCA.
As for the targets of letter-bombing campaigns, it might be more effective to aim at neutral or fence-sitting politicians than friends or declared enemies. We need to make more people understand what the heck is going on out here.
@From the wilderness.
I think the solution requires more nuance. Do we need the abolition of CBT to meet our objective? NO
What we need is for the USA to formally sign the CONVENTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS RELATING TO. THE CONFLICT OF NATIONALITY LAWS. THE HAGUE – 12 APRIL 1930.
What would that do? It would require the United States to stop extending its citizen reach beyond its borders.
Remember, the term “dual citizen” does not exist in US law, Canadian Law, and I suspect in no nations law. Other than maybe EU law in which all EU nationals are dual with repect to the status of EU Citizen.
If the USA would acknowledge that a Canadian citizen is solely Canadian whilst in the territory of Canada regardless of clinging US nationality then there are no FBAR or FATCA requirements upon that person.
The only ones stuffed are US Citizens who are permanent residents in Canada or elsewhere and they would be subject to FATCA and FBAR.
I also think its far easier to lobby the US to adopt the master nationality rule than to lobby for the abolition of CBT.
One other comment…….
Lets assume for a moment that we have a Canadian Citizen who was born in the USA. That person performed a relinquishing act under US Code. That person does not have a US passport nor exercises any “rights” of the birth place.
Two sample questions could be asked of that person;
1.) Are you a US Citizen?
2.) Does the US consider you a citizen?
Notice the difference in questions?
What answers could that person rightfully and truthfully give?
George:
So you’d be happy with the US sucking money out of your economy through its citizens who are permanent residents of your country?
@Foo, in an ideal world I would prefer the abolition of CBT because RBT is the international norm.
Yet, I can understand the basis the US would have to tax US citizens who are permanent residents elsewhere. Philosophically I have a problem with a person who says that they will be a long term permanent resident and NOT become a citizen of the country they are living in. To me that is saying they are likely going to return “home.” There is indeed a price for that “luxury.”
Personally I liked and appreciated the “old expatriation rules” before the US Courts intervened. In that not long ago era you were able to get out of the US trap and rightly also lost the right of return, But the gain was no longer having to worry about keeping track of rules of a distant land.
Pre-FATCA, I always encouraged expats to take up local citizenship.
Post-FATCA, I continue to encourage expats to take up local citizenship yet my encouragement is more nuanced in the scope to go all the way and relinquish US citizenship.
In the end I believe it is up to each individual country to negotiate bi-lateral treaties on how single citizen persons should be taxed.
But individuals who have taken up other citizenship and are solely in that country have the right to demand that their country protect them against any and all foreign aggression.
What can we do to help the Republicans Abroad and Mr. Bopp? (OH MY LORD….I never thought these words would come out of my mouth. How much lack of integrity does it take to be a one issue supporter when you HATE the remainder of their platform? Though I reckon I pretty much dislike all of them at the moment.
@ Victoria; do you know any of these folks? Can we contact them and see how we might be helpful? Might they have a “talking points” memo we can all work from to inundate the legislators with? (Also how do we contact the legislators, seems only by snail mail as their web sites require US addys for email or am I mistaken). My thoughts go to if we are all on the same page as Bopp then maybe we have a chance of being a united voice. I have also forgotten the gentleman’s name on your video that was asking to up the ante. Do you know what his ideas are?
@Foo, one more bit of clarification.
The era of the expat-American is no longer. It will get harder and harder to maintain that status for long periods overseas.
FWIW, I do not consider expat-Americans who take on other citizenship to still be ex-pat Americans.
@Calgary411, I fully understand Victorias position. While my personal litmus test is worldwide RBT and abolition of CBT for the US and Eriteria, I realize that some voices will be heard in Congress and some voices will not be heard.
The question is which voices, which Congress People will listen to!!!!
Victorias support of various groups is a multi prong attack. Eventually something will “stick.”
In the end and as a first step and as John Richardson had in his submission, that first step might be recognition that a Canadian Citizen in Canada is just that Canadian and nothing else. Permanent residents……well they are likely under the bus. The best we can do to help our fellow sojurners who are not Canadian is to keep encourage them to become Canadian!!
George:
Note that not all countries permit dual citizenship, so taking local citizenship automatically means having to relinquish any other citizenships.
Which doesn’t negate your point, but do realize there is a higher threshold for that decision in some countries than in others.
@George:
You wrote:
“I think the solution requires more nuance. Do we need the abolition of CBT to meet our objective? NO”
FTW: Did African Americans need the abolition of slavery to meet their objective? YES
“The only ones stuffed are US Citizens who are permanent residents in Canada or elsewhere and they would be subject to FATCA and FBAR.”
FTW: Some countries require a very long period to naturalise. I think Switzerland is 12 years. Thats a whole lot of double taxation and FBARs just for the “luxury” of being able to return to the US when citizens of RBT countries get to return to their countries of origin whenever they want without being taxed for it.
“I also think its far easier to lobby the US to adopt the master nationality rule than to lobby for the abolition of CBT.”
FTW: Lobbying for the master nationality rule can’t hurt.
George:
That is certainly true.
Victoria, George, Everyone,
I should not even be in this conversation and realize I overstepped my bounds. I have renounced my US citizenship as have my husband and my daughter. I will not ever help register my Canadian-born son with the US. In my mind, my family is Canadian and my Canadian government representatives are the ones I need to communicate with. I no longer have nor want any rights nor any voice in the US. The receipt of my Certificate of Loss of Nationality, the transmittal of my 2012 tax return, my 2012 FBAR, and my 8854, hopefully my last US dealings.
Getting rid of CBT is a lost cause. Nobody in America is going to agree to that. Nobody. It would mean perhaps having to tax their own FATCATS more. That would lose votes. Etc etc. So getting them to vote against CBT and for RBT is, in my personal view – absolutely impossible as a quest. It will never work.
Polly:
If that is the case, then remaining a US citizen abroad is a lost cause.
The question is, is this the policy Congress intends? Do they want people to give up US citizenship if they have no immediate plans to move to the US?
(It occurs to me that it is quite possible that that IS, in fact, what they want. If so, however, it would be appreciated if they could come out and say so explicitly, and then we can all just pack in the towel and move on with our lives.)
https://www.facebook.com/republicansoverseas/info
Republicans Overseas
this includes contact info
Location
1 South 6th St., Terre Haute, Indiana 47804
Contact Info
.
Phone
+1 503-370-7499
Email
solomon@grassfiregroup.com
Website
http://www.republicansoverseas.org
Note that Solomon Yue is very sincere and very communicative and very motivated.
The fundraising is grass roots
The challenges are both against FBAR and FATCA. The challenge support is segregated from anything related to the party itself.
@Calgary411, “I should not even be in this conversation and realize I overstepped my bounds. ”
Respectfully, I must disagree with you.
I first ask, is Calgary411 a “stakeholder” in the matters being discussed.
The answer is yes.
First, you are the “guardian” of a disabled son who is considered and claimed by the US Government as a citizen of that country.
Second, that claim of citizenship can cause him significant financial hardship and it is your moral and lawful obligation as his guardian to protect him and act on his behalf.
Third, as your disabled son is “unable to speak” for himself, you are morally and lawfully obligated to speak for him. So when you speak on certain narrow issues, while you might not be speaking for yourself, you are speaking for your son who is considered a US Citizen.
Fourth and finally, the US Government created the template for IGAs and that template provides for discrimination against persons who have an “unambiguous US place of birth” which I believe you have. Remember, the CLN is not the proverbial “golden ticket” rather it is the “silver ticket” or “gold plated ticket.”
Solely by your place of birth, you can be discriminated against if a financial institution does not elect to cure indica defects. You are indeed tattooed with US Indica that you can not shake away no matter what you do!
@Calgary411 “hopefully my last US dealings.”
Until the IGA goes away, the problem of US Indica will keep haunting you and it will drive you to make decisions where you do not have to disclose US Indica, regardless of having a CLN.
It is so clear that the “Place of Birth” indica is discriminatory!!! You can never get rid of that and because you can not get rid of it, you will ALWAYS be subject to possible discrimination.
@Mark Twain
Thanks so much. I have sent an email to Mr. Yue asking him how we can help. (Also thanks for curing my personal integrity problem in knowing this issue is segregated from the party platform).
@Calgary, You did not at all “overstep your bounds” my dear. You are in the thick of this and have worked so hard and so long and everything you’ve done and are doing is so deeply appreciated. George described my take on all this beautifully. Since I just don’t know what will “stick” I’m willing to try just about anything and I am doing my damndest not to judge if this or that org’s/person’s approach is the very best one. I just don’t know and I’m open to being surprised. The Republican Overseas effort came totally out the blue for me. But I think this one is brilliant and has a chance and so you bet I’m giving them my full support.
Charl, funny you should mention that. I’ve spent the last couple of days on the phone with someone from RO and I am working to get them some publicity using the channels I have. I’ve learned quite a lot and I am DELIGHTED to do what I can. I see that a previous comment gave their contact info.
Just for fun, here’s a little story. So I’m off at a meetup of Americans in Paris and next to me is someone from the other American political party. And I start answering people’s questions about FATCA and asking about their situations. This person was clearly not thrilled and finally said to me and the others at the table that the biggest issue for Americans abroad was not FATCA or taxes but the mid-term elections.
And I just started to laugh….
(I have nothing against either party but based on this and some other intereactions I’ve had with Dems Abroad France I think I am permanently on their !@# list. My bad. )
@Charl, and to finish answering your question I just finished editing an article from them for a publication I edit. It will surely be reprinted and I think it is a nice summary of what they are trying to do and how we can help. I’ll give everyone a heads up when it is available.
Mr. “We need to get more agressive” is the amazing John Fredenberger. And, yes, he thinks we need to get hopping and start punching. Which just goes to show you that there is a lot of diversity of opinion within organizations.
@Victoria
I would be curious to know what Mr. Fredenberger has in mind. I just get so frustrated sitting here doing nothing but moaning. I am now starting to have nightmares about this whole thing. Last night I was on a sofa with Obama crying asking him why he is doing this to me. I need to get a grip here.
@foo
I honestly think that most in the US government would not care one iota if we renounce or not – except for the money. That includes our votes because votes = money too.
Up till now we are a couple thousand in the past few years and all we hear is “thats peanuts” and how many more immigrate into the country for those who have left. There are about 7.6 million expats out here. I actually think that even if it were 100000 giving up their passports each year – it wouldn’t matter. These are just people who are “out of the system” and don’t count anymore. All the talk about being “ambassadors abroad” and aiding exports just falls on deaf ears…. even though that is even financially relevant for homelanders, it just doesn’t seem to register because it is based somewhere outside the boarders. Its all about the money. And that is also why they will never ever give up CBT. NEVER. It would mean having to raise taxes at home and they are struggling not to have to do that. It would probably even mean having to rewrite the whole taxation system! (Something that would hopefully affect residents and not citizens abroad.) But like I said- they`d have to start from scratch and create tax reform from the bottom up. Nobody seems to be up for that and they are clinging to their system- revising and revising and basically just making things worse. Its like a leaky roof and 1000 buckets to catch the raindrops coming in. They put another bucket here and there instead of repairing the whole roof.
So I don’t know if they have to announce it. Thats just the way it is. Of course in the end, if 6 million ended up giving up their citizenship, then they could close down the program. It would be too expensive to run for so little “profit”. In the end, it is all about the profit. And seemingly- people who have left to try to make a living elsewhere are fair game to help to feed the corrupt and failing economic system at home. Isn’t that the bottom line? Arent we all paying for the failures on Wall Street, capitalism gone wild, and the failed wars as well? Everybody is paying for all the wrong decisions over and over again….. I`d like to know were made by who? The american people? Or those who they chose to represent them? I`m just a little cog in the machine and I honestly don’t get it. Its like all of America has become too big to fail. ( I also think that these fusions and all this “too big” stuff should be outlawed. It creates monopolies that crush the whole system.) So how can most homelanders support us when it would mean having to revamp their whole way of life? Basically the whole government would need to be revamped. Who bases elections on who has more money? Its a shame, and perhaps it is too big of a shame to admit to.
Rant over. Sorry. Sometimes I just get so tired.
@ Polly
NEVER say NEVER…. (chill a bit)
Raising taxes is easier done than you might think…therefore your argument is wrong…
All one has to do is add a GST to every item/gas in a store (Oregon included) or reduce tax deduction of interest expense on mortgage debt…
OR… inflate and tax 1% as usual…so instead of owing 1% property taxes on a $100,000 house you owe 1% on a $200,000 house…tax revenue problem solved…
Governments have been doing this for ages…ergo currency depreciation…
Same goes for taxing on fictitious capital gains…(Canada recognized this in the early 80’s, with the Capital Gains exemption to offset inflationary gains, but then realized their honesty was in fact folly to the tax coffers and rescinded it)…now every government just cooks the books on CPI to avoid paying fair C.O.L.A. to pensioners and employees..
Thus, if required, the US will continue to ratchet deficits and print to pay it forward…
So, in essence, that argument doesn’t stop the US from making a change to Resident Based Taxation…They need to conform to global standards…
Something to think about before convincing yourself that change isn’t possible…
@Benedict
I have spoken to a few insiders and they tell me it is never going to happen. We are low hanging fruit and easy to pick. They also don’t want to lose face.
And just to make it hit home: we have to be very very wary of making our wishful thinking seem like fact. I am guilty of this, and I know others are too- when cornered we oftentimes think up solutions that just appease our own fears. Then we say “Oh this HAS to happen” or “This MUST be like this” when it isn’t and it won’t. America is in debt and it is getting worse with each passing day. They are NEVER going to give up this easy source of extra capital. If anything, they might do both.