Glad to post, Em:
Overseas Americans Week – Recap from AARO
As we tune in, thanks, Victoria and AARO — especially videographer, Mathieu.
Glad to post, Em:
Overseas Americans Week – Recap from AARO
As we tune in, thanks, Victoria and AARO — especially videographer, Mathieu.
Victoria, you’re correct that we have to have an ability to work together for change. The following is my take on it.
I may have blinders on and not be able to see past the fact that CBT is the US tax law that affects my family and most other ‘US Person’ families who live and work abroad. I (speaking only for me) don’t see evidence for the benefit of CBT (other than the punitive consequences as CBT is a cash cow for the US). I continue my need to be convinced why there is any reason for CBT when the rest of the world practices RBT.
With any reason to condone the US being out of step with the rest of the world in retaining CBT that adversely affects so many individuals and families, there must never be entrapment. For that to happen, US citizenship law must be changed so a child born abroad has a CLAIM to US citizenship when of age and with the requisite mental capacity to fully understand the benefits as well as the consequences of US citizenship. Choice and full disclosure of benefits and consequences — not automatic US citizenship for those we know as “Accidental Americans”.
If AARO is the organization that would condone CBT for whatever reasons, they may be the organization that better needs to communicate why other organizations should accept that CBT should exist for the US rather than RBT. What is the percentage of damage to individuals and families with CBT law compared with what it would be with RBT law? Just wondering if AARO might be an organization out of step with others in working together with common purpose?
Again, with my blinders, I remain to need a whole lot of understanding why AARO would condone the US not changing to RBT. I just see that with US RBT, FATCA would not be the destroyer of individuals and families as it now criminalizes US Persons Abroad. This is because of what has been general ignorance that US citizenship-based taxation even exists when that concept just doesn’t make any common sense to most of us. (And, I do realize there are many that are / were more educated on that CBT concept than I was). With the US moving to RBT, there would not be the yearly (for me) unacceptable stress and cost to families for the compliance required of them with CBT.
If CBT must continue, expatriations from US citizenship must continue for self-preservation and resumption of some sanity in the lives of ‘US Persons Abroad’ — and of course for those who become US permanent residents in the US on their path to US citizenship.
@Victoria
“Can we get it together? Can this loose network of different organizations and actors become something that drives change?”
How can we make that happen? One fellow in the video was speaking of us becoming a louder voice, doing something big and organized. Can that be our next goal? Who can/will take the lead to organize the many groups that are involved?
“Or is all that potential going to crumble under the weight of diaspora politics?” If the US is betting on that happening, how can we head that off at the pass? All big questions, I’m hoping you and the wise ones leading these various groups have the answer, I sure don’t but I think it is time to up the ante. We are “Up Against the Wall” in the wise words of Gracey Slick, it is time to tear down that wall.
Unfortunately, nothing we can do comes even close to the effectiveness of renouncing US citizenship in getting the attention of US lawmakers, and even that is being treated as of little significance.
I’m afraid it’s going to take a catastrophe of sorts to get through those thick skulls.
Now this is encouraging. It might help if we wrote to one specific body of government, say State Department? Think we can get at least 150k people to write to them?
“The agency has withdrawn the proposed regs that would institutionalize its mistreatment of Tea Party groups. Accounting Today reports:
The announcement Thursday came in response to the unprecedented number of comments—over 150,000—the IRS received on the proposed rules, which were supposed to govern the types of political activity that would be permissible for groups to maintain tax-exempt status as “social welfare” organizations under Section 501(c)4 of the Tax Code…”
http://rothcpa.com/2014/05/tax-roundup-52314-were-sorry-can-we-have-our-funding-now/
Part of the catastrophe is our own countries governments’ thick skulls to get through as they condone US citizenship-based taxation and the right of US law to supersede their own to waive the rights of a segment of its people (as they now refer to us as American taxpayers abiding in the countries where our lives are).
@Bubblebustin
Well, I did not renounce to get anybody`s attention! 🙂
Calgary, Oh my goodness. How easy it is to misunderstand each other. AARO certainly does not condone CBT and AARO absolutely supports ACA’s efforts for RBT. I’m not sure how the contrary got into anyone’s head but it is dead dead wrong. I’m so sorry that you feel that way and that you got that impression. I won’t try to change your mind about it – we’ll just have to amicably disagree on this one… Victoria.
@Polly
Consider it as maybe an unintended consequence.
@Em,
great point re;
“I can’t grasp the concept of being bashed over the head with CBT, FBAR and FATCA and yet still being so eager to send your overseas earned money to a US bank so the US bank benefits from your deposits but your local bank does not……”
And as an ethical point, I am not willing to let the US government or economy or US institutions or businesses profit off my local savings (pitiful as they are) even if I was still a USperson (which I am not), because I am very angry and resent what has been done to me and mine and others abroad in terms of the significant and useless costs we paid in needless anxiety, the destruction of our peace of mind and wellbeing, and of our hardearned and already taxed savings evaporated in useless fees paid to US tax and law professionals and time and wellbeing eaten up in trying to make some sense of all of this. And I resent and oppose what the US is doing to Canada and the rest of the world in terms of our sovereignty and our right to determine what is good for our home and our communities. I cannot forgive the US arrogance and the application of US might makes right.
Looking at the long list of discussions re filing the f’ing 8854, we can’t even give them what they say they want because we can’t figure it out and they won’t explain. Who can reason with officials that stupid and that powerful? They consistently demonstrate that they have no intention of making it any easier to comply correctly as they demand – even for those who want to or can.
At the ACA sponsored event in Ontario in May, one of the investment professionals tried to say that all was not entirely bleak – even though almost all normal savings and investments in our home country were closed to us because of US CBT treating all our local normal opportunities as suspicious UStaxable ‘foreign’ trusts and ‘foreign’ mutual funds as PFICs, etc. – he said brightly that at least there were some very good opportunities to invest in US funds. And I wanted to start screaming that the last thing we should be doing is to give the US a penny voluntarily after how we have and are being treated.
I know some people here and at the AARO and ACA etc. won’t be able to understand this, but the US government is not our friend – the relationship is entirely adversarial – and all the blame is theirs. Look at the Congressional report on another IBS thread http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/05/22/report-to-members-and-committees-of-congress-extra-territorial-u-s-tax-law-and-how-it-shall-be-enforced-in-other-countries/ . They don’t underscore that millions of us affected were born outside the US, never set foot there, or have lived elsewhere for decades and more and that our legal local accounts are just exactly the same as those of millions of ordinary US residents – and we have already paid a full set of taxes. It is all about their paranoia and kneejerk reactions, and a steadfastly blinkered worldview that has the Sun revolving around the US – where apparently no light or facts can penetrate their hallucinations that the rest of the world is just full of US billionaires in hiding in Pickle Lake Ontario, or all the other places in the world that ordinary people are living normal legal local lives. The US government is either psychotic or criminally and cynically hypocritical and disingenuous, or both.
@Charl, Oh my I often despair that it will happen. Everybody in this fight has a piece of what we need to be successful. How do we put the pieces together not just to get some relief but to make those big changes we want?
/Start rant But what I hear too little of is HUMILITY. A recognition that we all need each other, that we can be more if we work TOGETHER, that no one has THE answer (though we all have a lot of great ideas). I guess what I’m saying is that some days I see far too much ego and zero willingness to set it aside to make common cause. It’s “my way or the high way” over and over again – everyone has their own “turf” and will go down defending it even if it means that we don’t make progress. And when I see that stuff, I despair. I truly do. And if Treasury/IRS sees it too then I imagine they sleep much better at night as a result. /End rant.
@Victoria @All
OK, where do we start? How does one go about coalescing the various groups? Bubblebustin has one great group idea about writing to one specific body of government en mass. Which body do we appeal to? Do you have contact info and relationships with all of the groups? How do we start one of these movements? What other avenues might we pursue?
I am not aware of what the “turf” wars might be about nor how to navigate them. Isn’t there only one common cause? I am a newbie at this and rather thick regarding nuances but certainly in a whatever it takes to burn down the ramparts mood. Our voices together must be gathered and put into some kind of action that will be actually noticed.
There is a saying in the investment world which says, “the market can stay irrational longer than the investor can stay solvent”. Well the same also goes for the fight to abolish C.B.T. Congress will never give in because Congress is irrational when it comes to C.B.T. The fact that Treasury or the I.R.S. categorized the Obama Care tax on investment income as a so called ‘social tax’, and thereby made local foreign tax offsets unavailable, shows their contempt for expats and an utter disregard for fairness.
We will all be long dead before anything is ever done about this. .Changing the system doesn’t take a genius to do. All that it takes are a few simple words in comparison to the over 500 pgs of F.A.T.C.A.
@Charl, I like bubblebustin’s idea a lot. Let’s think about this (and here I am not speaking for any org but just for myself).
Who do we have in our corner?
A few ideas: Nina Olson, State Department Citizen Services, Rand Paul, The Chairs of the Americans Abroad caucus. Any others?
What could we give these folks? How can we help them help us?
Or to take the problem another way: Who is NOT in our corner and can we let them know how we feel about that? That might be really interesting. 🙂
@recalcitrantexpat
It may be futile but I will go to my grave screaming. Did all of our yelling, screaming, burning etc in the ’60s make a difference? I actually can’t answer that but, in retrospect, I would not have changed my behaviour for a second. The feelings this engenders in me currently are similar. This is immoral, unfair, unjust and simply wrong. If there is any way I can possibly contribute to holding their feet to the fire, game on.
It’s nice that there are people who care and want to change things but I don’t see the USG ever just allowing citizens to live outside the country without interference the way other countries do.
I would love to be a dual if I could choose who my main allegiance was given to but that simply won’t happen.
But even if I am wrong, it’s going to be too late for many of us. A person only gets one shot at relinquishing, for example, and if you don’t take it – you are put through the renunciation wringer.
I took my citizenship test and passed last week. I will take the oath in a couple of month-ish and that’s that. What other choice do I have right now?
Everything I want (or need) to do is off-limits to me as an American. That’s just a fact. Whether the USG intended it or not, they left many of us with piss poor options given that moving back there isn’t an option.
I am tired of a limbo where I can’t pursue dreams and can’t save for my old age and can’t even fund my child’s higher education.
If I am going to be an annoyance for change, I have plenty of political targets here that have a more immediate effect on my life than faceless staffers in the States who haven’t enough imagination to even wonder about life outside their borders.
@Victoria
Let me chew on this for awhile. There are many here at Brock way brighter than I with, I’m certain, buckets of ideas.
What possible tools would the likes of Olsen et al need to further our cause? Do petitions/letters help? Jatras might have some ideas also of where to go next. Might we ask them directly how we can aid them. Paul might only care re getting votes, we are not a voting block of any measure. (I sometimes think the Maddows of the universe avoid shedding light on the subject as they would rather drink poison than agree with Paul).
In talking to those not in our corner I have found, in my limited experience, they only react to how this will actually hurt the US, don’t really give a rats behind about us. I’m loving the idea that Russia could pull its US treasuries investments. We need to find their Achilles heel. (Here I am rootin’ for Putin! Who would have thunk?)
@Victoria, Charl & all
Who’s in the best position (friend or current foe) who can actually do something about CBT?
We need to bombard whoever it is with tweets, letter, phone calls, petitions – a surge, so to speak.
Nina Olson is nice, but it seems she doesn’t have any powers at all. Her reports have fallen on death ears for almost 4 years now. All that got us is a streamline procedure for non residents, so narrow, than few can use it, and that might have had more to do with the Canadian government complaining than her efforts. And NOTHING came up for immigrants to the US.
3 years ago, when I learned about all these issues, I filed a systemic issue with the TAS. I was hoping that within a year or so, there would be a way for immigrants to become compliant without the risk of ruin or deportation. I was dreaming.
Victoria, have you asked her why nothing happens with regards to her reports? That is pretty disappointing. If the IRS commissioner doesn’t listen to her, she should go higher up in the hierarchy.
There must be ways to get things done without legislation since there is so much gridlock in congress right now, that no much happens. Reasonable compliance procedures that don’t require ruining yourself in lawyers and accountant fees or the threat of bankrupting fines could be one of them.
An initiative to update accounting software for non residents should be one of them. I contacted TurboTax, but never got an answer. This would be a pretty good business opportunity for them.
@noone
**And NOTHING came up for immigrants to the US**
Because we are easy marks. We have no representation in the gov’t… our own nor the US with this… We can’t vote in the US so no one in the gov’t wants to talk or hear us. To add salt to the injury… we are forced to pay an exit tax if we give up the card… No other country does that to legal immigrants… They prefer to make sure they get ever dime before they deport immigrants… I tell everyone I meet… do not go to the US… sure u can make money… but the ropes that tie u to them are too expensive. I can make a little less money in another country but I can come & go as I please, don’t have to pay with everything I have earned or saved for this legal residence
I think that working together with the Republicans Abroad and their lawyer, James Bopp, is the best way to go. They are the ones who have become more aggressive and are actually going to sue for “unconstitutionality”. The fact that FATCA is unconstitutional is the only point of attack that has merit for Americans in America, legally. It is the only method for exacting any kind of positive results because if FATCA is illegal- then that will have real consequences.
And honestly- I don’t think there is much time left either.
As I see it- they are right and we should be working together with them, republican or not.
@US_Person_Foreigner
Possibly you can make money there, but they will take it back if you try to leave! 🙂
@Polly
This has been my question… who gave the Treasury & the IRS the legal power to enact these *contracts*? My understanding of the gov’t working is limited… they do not have the legal authority to do so without the vote of Congress who have said nothing… just rolled over & let them do what they want… A lot of hot air moving around but I have not seen them do boo… Don’t get me started about all gov’ts hiding things inside of these +300 page bills…. we pay your salary… u are to represent us honestly…. I feel that the gov’t have overstepped their legal duty…. they don’t rep us… they rep themselves & who ever can give them more
Not only what I made in the US… anything I have saved or invested is also the issue…. none of us are 18 anymore… we have worked hard for our future. Our future generations are effected by this also… We need to leave them a better place… not a place that is worse…
Polly,
How best to kill CBT?
If I understand you correctly, I agree that a litigation approach attacking the constitutionality of some CBT tax rules might be helpful.
Republicans Overseas came to the opinion that, with FATCA, litigation is a more direct way of killing this bad law than waiting patiently for legislation to happen — and recruited Jim Bopp to be the litigator.
If people feel that a similar effort by the Republicans in attacking the constitutionality of CBT laws makes some sense perhaps they should let RO know this somewhere on its FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/republicansoverseas
@Calgary411
@Victoria
@Polly
Calgary411: Your Comment:
Again, with my blinders, I remain to need a whole lot of understanding why AARO would condone the US not changing to RBT. I just see that with US RBT, FATCA would not be the destroyer of individuals and families as it now criminalizes US Persons Abroad. This is because of what has been general ignorance that US citizenship-based taxation even exists when that concept just doesn’t make any common sense to most of us.
US Citizenship based taxation is the crux of the problem for it allows FATCA do be the destroyer they intended.
RBT needs to happen but before it can be FATCA needs to be killed dead.
The litigation initiated by RO and Bopp is the immediate remedy for there is no time for any other, and Mr. Bopp made that comment when they decided to take the case and litigate immediately.
They emphasize it is the ONLY remedy before July 1st.
I sure hope they get a move on!
The idea that FATCA is illegal is not a small issue. It is indeed illegal for Treasury has NO authority to negotiate with sovereign nations.
Any nation signing an IGA is doing so with an unauthorized entity and the US government says so.
The litigation undertaken also makes the point of illegality.
( which makes me wonder why our government was so damned anxious to sign one. Do THEY not know they were dealing with an illegal entity for an illegal override of Canada’s laws? Are they THAT obtuse?)
As for working with organizations and getting together on getting the changes needed, that is all good and Victoria sounds very solicitous and willing to work together. And that is all good. It also takes a lot of time and as can be easily seen by their visit to the US along with their many previous visits they are getting nowhere fast. )
Meanwhile FATCA moves along like an all destructive glacier and has already ruined lives around the planet.
We can all go to WA and plead with lawmakers til the cows come home but unless and until something concrete happens it is all moot.
It is clear that the US government in it’s present form has become a lawless entity and targets Americans who dare disagree politically using the FBI, IRS, CIA and anything else at hand to destroy opposition.
In this kind of environment, what kind of success can one have by going hat in hand to DC to supplicate the very ones who have destruction in mind.
They need to be told NO in the strongest terms by sovereign governments around the world. France included.
My hope is that litigation will be successful and have a huge impact on countries like Canada who then may see how unconstitutional and UNCharter of Rights this huge behemoth mess is.
As far as giving up US Citizenship is concerned that opens up a whole new can of worms intended to keep one enslaved and in chains or pay the price that many simply cannot afford. Nor should they have to make that decision to placate a lawless entity.
Our own government should be recognizing that and standing up for us. It is what they were elected to do.