In how many ways should CANADIANS who are deemed US citizens have US law take precedence over Candian law? Will it be only about US taxation and financial reporting to the US of those deemed US Persons in Canada — or will it extend to what passport we use to travel to other countries, perhaps firearms laws, capital punishment laws, etc.?
Just how many of our rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms will you vote away now that you determine it OK that Canadian financial privacy of deemed US Persons is no longer their right as you condone discrimination by US national origin? I ask because of the following that appears on the Toronto US Consulate web site:
Another question on dual nationality: Is it okay to travel outside of the U.S. on my other passport?
“While the U.S. does not prohibit dual nationality, Americans must comply with U.S. laws (e.g. federal and state taxes, selective service, and foreign assets control) regardless of their location. Thus, a dual citizen who travels to Cuba on a Canadian or other passport, may violate U.S. law and be subject to criminal or civil penalties.”
As Kathy asks:
I wonder if all those bankers and Conservative MPs would be happy to have our duals going to Cuba for a winter vacation being charged as criminals. They’re US citizens, so they have to follow US laws even if they’ve spent their entire lives in Canada, right? That’s what they said about filing US taxes. So I guess we can assume that they’re OK with Canadian duals not traveling on a Canadian passport? And we can assume that they’re OK if a Canadian dual travels to Cuba on a Canadian passport and then is charged as a criminal by the US?
George comments and poses questions to ask Canadian MPs:
Will Canada enforce the US restriction on travel to Cuba of a Canadian Citizen, resident in Canada, with “clinging US nationality,” who travels on holiday to Cuba with his/her Canadian passport?
I would like to suggest a letter writing campaign bringing this to the attention of various MPs and asking if Canada will enforce this ban and aid the US Government. The reason is that it will flush out the sovereignty question.
Must you have a CLN to travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport?
Or can you travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport if you have a reasonable explanation of why you do not have a CLN despite having relinquished your US citizenship?
If you have an unambiguous place of birth in the USA can you travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport at all?
@MonaLisa,
I worried a lot about them making it more difficult to renounce and so on but, if you look at how they apply the changes regarding exit tax, 877a and so on, they are applying what was law at the time. (Unfortunately, for those under 877 vs 877a). While I would not put it past them, I think it’s good to try and stay out of the “scaring yourself to death” mode. We’re out. Notwithstanding SOL obligations. End of story.
My answer on travel to Cuba or registering with Selective Service is the same as my view on Citizenship Based Taxation.
Canada shouldn’t be getting involved in telling the US what domestic laws to pass when it comes to US citizens.
But at the same time Canada shouldn’t be getting involved in enforcing domestic laws, especially laws which have no clear equivalent in Canada. (CBT, Cuba, and SSS all fall into this category.) These laws should remain unenforceable unless and until the US citizen or “US person” decides on their own to enter the US.
@MonaLisa
My comment was specifically related to the draft, not to any other obligations of citizenship. Personally, I see this point as more of a legal oddity: a) the U.S. hasn’t used the draft in decades and drafted armies aren’t really suited to modern warfare, b) the U.S. would have to be really stupid to draft and give military training and weaponry to someone who wanted out of the country. You can imagine what some Brockers might want to do with a tank!
@nobledreamer: (Unfortunately, for those under 877 vs 877a)
Fortunately, in my case. I left before 877a passed. In fact, I left precisely because of 877a, which would, had I not anticipated it, have lopped around $100k off the top of my retirement savings in unrecoverable double tax.
So I have ten years of filing zero-bottom-line 1040NR’s to the IRS. Meh. I’ll take that over destruction of my retirement savings every time. My living, working, and paying tax to a different country now is the US’s loss, too.
Easy solution.. just go dark. I am soooo far off every radar it’s not even funny anymore. I don’t file, I don’t recognize the US government as legitimate. I don’t travel to the US. I don’t use US services or companies. Any payments derived from US clients must be made via offshore holdings and go into accounts which cannot in any way shape or form be connected to myself. That’s just the way it is. Bank accounts I DO use are stripped of any identifying information to a US identity as I have been here long enough to predate those requirements. My wife is not registered with anything US-related, nor is my child, nor will they be. There’s a great big world outside the US, and fortunately for the rest of the world, the US has absolutely zero authority over it.
@Fred
Do you have a US passport or did you ever have one? Has it expired without renewal? How about a social security number? Because one day when they get through all the rest – these are the things they will be looking at.
If FATCA and CBT are not struck down beforehand. Which would be great.
@Publius
My understanding is that, not only has the US not had the draft in decades, the US hasn’t prosecuted anyone for failure to register in decades. The requirement to register is enforced these days primarily via the indirect consequences of a failure to register–for example, loss of eligibility for federal student loan benefits. In practice, to prosecute someone requires proof that the failure to register was willful. For a young man living in Canada between his 18th and 26th birthdays, the failure to register is unlikely to be willful as it could be he simply didn’t know.
@Polly
I have permanent residence here, which is independent of a passport. Do I have a US pisspot? Sure. Do I honestly care about it? Nope. The day that they try to impose some hilarious bullshit, is the day I defect in a very public manner.
@Polly
“This just makes a canadian passport null and void for a dual citizen. ”
No, a Canadian passport gives someone the right to enter Canada at any time–regardless of past legal issues such as criminal convictions or customs/immigration violations. An American passport affords no such right.
Anyways, I think the real question here is whether the Canadian government–or Canadian banks, airlines, etc acting on laws passed by the Cdn gov’t–will enforce any provision of US domestic law against a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil who asserts Canadian citizenship. A Canadian who denies any form of “US personhood” on Canadian soil isn’t lying, especially if the US personhood is accidental–they have the right to be treated as solely a Canadian. The question–which I feel hasn’t been definitively answered either way–is whether the Canadian gov’t will treat such a person as a US person over and above their protestations to the contrary.
@Dash1792
Which is true. For the rest of one`s travels the american passport is what matters- OR ELSE. ( It is sickening.)
@Dash1729, “My understanding is that, not only has the US not had the draft in decades, the US hasn’t prosecuted anyone for failure to register in decades.”
Substitute the words draft and register with FBAR and people said the same thing pre 2007.
@All, I think some are confused on the arguments.
There is no such things as a “Dual” Canadian/American whilst resident in Canada.
International law extinguishes “duality” upon entering one or the other country.
The USA is attempting to subvert that honored international norm and requiring that US’ness be paramount worldwide.
Sadly with FATC IGA, the Canadian Government is agreeing to that principal by even entertaining such discussions.
The examples with selective service registration and violations of the Cuba embargo are an attempt to show how ludicrous the Canadian Parliament is entertaining a FATCA IGA.
@George
Not saying it couldn’t happen–restoring the draft, that is.
The difference, though, is that the last time there was a draft there was rioting in the streets in the USA. The memories of those days does seem to be fading a bit but 40+ years ago the draft was arguably the most important issue in America whereas FBAR was some sleepy gov’t form no one had ever heard of.
Restoring the draft would also require making politically VERY difficult decisions about the draft status of at least two groups of people: women and illegal immigrants. I suspect politicians will avoid having to make those difficult decisions if at all possible.
But–you are right–eventually the collective memory of the nightmare of the last draft may fade so we cannot rule out it might not be brought back.
Sound familiar? Same could apply to FBAR, CBT.
“The Selective Service registration form states that failure to register is a felony punishable by up to five years imprisonment or a $250,000 fine.[65] In practice, no one has been prosecuted for failure to comply with draft registration since 1986,[66] in part because prosecutions of draft resisters proved counter-productive for the government, and in part because of the difficulty of proving that noncompliance with the law was “knowing and willful”.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States
Dash1729,
What George is saying and what the post is about is the absurdity of these with the Canadian IGA, equally absurd, not to do with whether or not the Selective Service registration means a whole lot as there is no draft — it is just a comparison of that absurdity, forbidding travel to Cuba by Canadians or any other country’s persons who happen to be US citizens and the “meaningless” regulation for all US citizens no matter where they live in the world to have to register with the US Selective Service:
@George
Exactly.
My point is that a Canadian on Canadian soil who denies any form of US personhood cannot in any way be construed as lying.
The question is whether there would be any scenario where the Cdn gov’t or some large Cdn institution (eg a bank) won’t accept a Cdn citizen’s statement that they are not a US person.
@calgary411
Actually I agree–all are equally absurd.
My question, though, is whether the Cdn gov’t would ever refuse to accept a Cdn citizen’s declaration that they are a Cdn and only a Cdn–assuming solid proof of the Cdn citizenship. I’m talking about someone who is quite willing to sign documents stating that they are NOT a US person. Would the Cdn gov’t ever say–no, you are wrong, you are really a “dual” or a “US person”?
That question, for me, seems unresolved.
One thing is sure about Canadians traveling to Cooba is they won’t be traveling on a Bombardier Q400 LOL
Russia threatens end of $3.4 bn Canadian aircraft deal
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-threatens-end-3-4-bn-canadian-aircraft-190455682.html
@Dash: You have more confidence in the Canadian government than I do. Until February 4, I thought the IGA would exclude Canadian citizens and possibly even residents.
Based on some of the comments made in the House of Commons and at the Finance Committee by some Con MPs, I think the validity of our Canadian citizenship is already being questioned by the very people who should be insisting that the US cannot tromp on the rights of Canadians in Canada.
To be called “Americans abiding in Canada“ by the Minister of State for Finance said it all. Joe Oliver tried to weasel around Canadian citizens are not impacted by FATCA. Then, Gerald Keddy insisted his constituents who are US citizens are playing by the American rules–implying we should be too. John Richardson was challenged on how long he has been a Canadian citizen and how much he values his American citizenship. Mike Allen said “Congress has spoken.“
I think the Cons have clearly indicated they consider us second class Canadian citizens and they have little intent in treating us as Canadian citizens only. We are, after all, “Americans abiding in Canada.“
I can`t imagine one of them would dare say anything similar about Canadians born in China, India, Iran or Eritrea.
Unfortunately, even the NDP and the Liberals often use the D word-Dual. Nathan Cullen challenged a Finance Canada official who seemed to reluctantly concede that a dual is a Canadian citizen.
So, I don`t share your confidence that the government will do what is right and insist our rights as Canadian citizens and residents be upheld. Instead, I think the government is going to make our legal challenge to FATCA as long, brutal and costly for us as they possibly can.
I hope they prove me wrong and adopt the amendment to the Act. I am not optimistic based on what I have seen to date.
Dash1729,
Appears if we’re talking about the Conservative (Harper) Canadian government, who voted YES in lockstep for the IGA (surely, would there not of at least some to vote with their conscience — even knowing some US Persons affected), the answer will be no; we are wrong; we cannot say we are NOT a US Person. Those Conservative MPs are apparently directed to refer to us as “Americans who happen to live in Canada” or “US citizens who reside or abide in Canada”, whether born here, were naturalized here and Canada their chosen country.
I’ve put it to the test, asking them how they will protect their most vulnerable who may be entrapped into some *supposed* US citizenship as they have a ‘mental incapacity’. No answer yet. I hope others put them to the test (I have already renounced so can unequivocally tell them I am not a US citizen, no matter my national origin. Mine won’t count.)
The FATCA IGA is not the only place where Harper’s setting about to create two tiers of Canadians.
Citizenship Act will create two classes of Canadians:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/citizenship-act-will-create-two-classes-of-canadians/article18778296/
I’m sure they could tweak it to include ‘US citizens who reside or abide in Canada’.
@Dash: If you believe the government is interested in our rights as Canadians, read the 284 pages I received through Access to Information. After you review that, tell me how much thought our government gave to us as Canadian citizens and residents and how much they gave to the banks.
Note especially, they provided a copy of Peter Hogg’s letter to financial institutions while they were still “considering” a request for the letter from Elizabeth May. Most of us didn’t even know the letter existed then.
Now, they insist FATCA will withstand a Charter challenge. Do you really think the government will just accept “I’m not a US citizen?” Do you really think they won’t do everything they can to fight us on the legal challenge?
If you believe that, i have a Peace Bridge between Fort Erie and Buffalo I would like to sell you. All proceeds will go directly to the legal challenge fund.
@Dash: Oops, I neglected to include the link to the information. Here it is.
This was a post of 244 pages. I later posted another group that Finance provided that brought the total to 284, Unfortunately, I was not able to locate that second post, but if anyone wants it, I will try to somehow locate it.
http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/finance-canada-244-pages-access-to-information/comment-page-2/
@Blaze , @calgary411
How do you expect the Canadian gov’t to find out about the “US personhood” in the first place?
Remember, I’m asking about a scenario where a Canadian refers to themselves as a Canadian and a Canadian only.