In how many ways should CANADIANS who are deemed US citizens have US law take precedence over Candian law? Will it be only about US taxation and financial reporting to the US of those deemed US Persons in Canada — or will it extend to what passport we use to travel to other countries, perhaps firearms laws, capital punishment laws, etc.?
Just how many of our rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms will you vote away now that you determine it OK that Canadian financial privacy of deemed US Persons is no longer their right as you condone discrimination by US national origin? I ask because of the following that appears on the Toronto US Consulate web site:
Another question on dual nationality: Is it okay to travel outside of the U.S. on my other passport?
“While the U.S. does not prohibit dual nationality, Americans must comply with U.S. laws (e.g. federal and state taxes, selective service, and foreign assets control) regardless of their location. Thus, a dual citizen who travels to Cuba on a Canadian or other passport, may violate U.S. law and be subject to criminal or civil penalties.”
As Kathy asks:
I wonder if all those bankers and Conservative MPs would be happy to have our duals going to Cuba for a winter vacation being charged as criminals. They’re US citizens, so they have to follow US laws even if they’ve spent their entire lives in Canada, right? That’s what they said about filing US taxes. So I guess we can assume that they’re OK with Canadian duals not traveling on a Canadian passport? And we can assume that they’re OK if a Canadian dual travels to Cuba on a Canadian passport and then is charged as a criminal by the US?
George comments and poses questions to ask Canadian MPs:
Will Canada enforce the US restriction on travel to Cuba of a Canadian Citizen, resident in Canada, with “clinging US nationality,” who travels on holiday to Cuba with his/her Canadian passport?
I would like to suggest a letter writing campaign bringing this to the attention of various MPs and asking if Canada will enforce this ban and aid the US Government. The reason is that it will flush out the sovereignty question.
Must you have a CLN to travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport?
Or can you travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport if you have a reasonable explanation of why you do not have a CLN despite having relinquished your US citizenship?
If you have an unambiguous place of birth in the USA can you travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport at all?
Excelleng question! It seems like it’s never going to end.
Dear MP:
Will you next allow the US to demand every young Canadian male born in the US (think especially about those “border baby” boys) between the ages of 18-25 register for the US Selective Service? If they refuse, will you agree that Canadian provinces must do what some US states do and deny them student loans or driver’s licenses?
Would you agree that Canada must not recognize same sex marriages performed in Canada of Canadians born in states that do not recognize same sex marriage?
Would you agree that Canadians born in US to have the right to bear arms in Canada even when it conflicts with Canadian laws?
Would you agree that Canada stop paying maternity leave benefits through EI to women born in the United States? Oh wait, maybe the US will see that as a source of revenue for the IRS like they do RDSP contributions.
Would you agree Canada cancel health care coverage for Canadians born in the US and implement ObamaCare for them instead?
Would you agree that Quebec children born in the United States be educated in English in Quebec?
If you don`t do all of that, remember the US may decide to apply economic or other penalties. Your own colleague said “Congress has spoken.“
My only fear about presenting these questions is that it might give them ideas.
The prohibition on U.S. citizens on traveling to Cuba was commented on by former President Carter in his book: “Our Endangered Values”. The book is well worth reading. Chapter 11 is titled:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=axnUoH_r5tsC&pg=PA104&dq=jimmy+carter+endangered+values+Cuba+Servicemen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5lJ9U5vJB4K0yAT6hoGwAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jimmy%20carter%20endangered%20values%20Cuba%20Servicemen&f=false
Referring to the U.S. policy of restricting the travel of U.S. citizens to Cuba, he describes the situation of American Iraq war veteran Sergent Lazo who was denied permission to visit his sons in Cuba.
President Carter writes:
The simple fact is that citizens of the United States have fewer freedoms than citizens of many other countries. This is of course a great shock to “Homelanders” who believe that America is the “Land of the free”. I ask the question to you Homelanders:
How do you like your freedom now?
I cannot believe they have residency-based Selective Service. You have to actually live in the USA to be required to register for the Selective Service . I was afraid my kid born in Canada (unfortunately I am from USA) would have to register for USA wars. Whew! Much better than the citizenship based taxation scheme.
New Ways to Visit Cuba — Legally
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/travel/at-long-last-legal-trips-to-cuba.html?pagewanted=all
@Blaze,
Shhhhhhhhhh!
This is a clear statement from the U.S. Government that the United States views U.S. citizens as the property of the United States – a form of 21st century slavery. This is the view of the United States.
You have two choices:
1. Accept the view of the United States that you are U.S. property; or
2. Accept that you are a free person.
Brings to mind the book by Allen, “As a man thinketh”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_a_Man_Thinketh
The choice is yours.
No, kermitzii and others with “US” sons outside the USA — not only for those resident in the US …
https://www.sss.gov/FSwho.htm
DUAL NATIONALS
Dual nationals of the U.S. and another country are required to register, regardless of where they live, because they are U.S. nationals.
See also Immigrants and Dual Nationals – Liability for Service
HOSPITALIZED OR INCARCERATED MEN
Young men in hospitals, mental institutions, or prisons do not have to register while they are committed. However, they must register within 30 days after being released if they have not yet reached their 26th birthday.
DISABLED MEN
Disabled men who live at home must register with Selective Service if they can reasonably leave their homes and move about independently. A friend or relative may help a disabled man fill out the registration form if he can’t do it himself.
Men with disabilities that would disqualify them from military service still must register with Selective Service. Selective Service does not presently have authority to classify men, so even men with obvious handicaps must register now, and if needed, classifications would be determined later.
MEN CANNOT REGISTER AFTER REACHING AGE 26
print this form using Adobe Acrobat Reader Printer Friendly Version
According to law, a man must register with Selective Service within 30 days of his 18th birthday. Selective Service will accept late registrations but not after a man has reached age 26.
Some men may have failed to register during the time they were eligible to do so and may now find they are ineligible for certain benefits.
See What happens if I don’t register?
WHAT CAN YOU DO IF YOU DID NOT REGISTER AND ARE NOW 26 OR OLDER?
If you have passed your 26th birthday and are now being denied eligibility for Federal student financial aid, Federal job training, or Federal employment, or are having difficulty obtaining U.S. citizenship because you failed to register, you have the following recourse available to you: Explain to the official handling your case (for example, a student financial aid officer) the reasons for your failure to register with Selective Service. A non-registrant may not be denied any benefit if he can “show by a preponderance of evidence” that his failure to register was not knowing and willful. Offer as much evidence supporting your case, and as much detail, as possible.
HOW TO GET AN OFFICIAL SELECTIVE SERVICE RESPONSE SAYING YOU WERE OR WERE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER
If you did not register with Selective Service, and are now a man over age 25, you may be ineligible for certain Federal or state programs and benefits,
What is the penalty for not registering?
Failure to register is a violation of the Military Selective Service Act. Conviction for such a violation may result in imprisonment for up to five years and/or a fine of not more than $250,000.
Will Cuban cigars purchased by Americans in Canada EXPLODE now that Canada has chosen to enforce US law in Canada?
Must a dual Canadian/U.S. citizen sing “My Country ‘Tis of Thee” in Canada while other Canadians are singing “God Save the Queen” to the same tune?
@kermitzii
calgary411 has dug much deeper for you. But the core US position on selective service is in the post above… “Americans must comply with U.S. laws (e.g. federal and state taxes, SELECTIVE SERVICE, and foreign assets control) REGARDLESS OF THEIR LOCATION.”
This is a very slippery slope and we have to be careful how far we push this. Many countries (Thailand, Taiwan, Israel and more) allow dual citizenship but require males to do national service (i.e. military) regardless of their US nationality. The US obligation to register for Selective Service is consistent in that regard to many other countries. The issue regarding travel to Cuba by a dual US citizen, the extraterritorial application of the US Foreign Corrupt Practices law, the export control laws, etc etc that apply to US Persons worldwide are all real issues if one is a US Person. The natural reaction if one does not like these restrictions is to renounce US citizenship – but the point regarding FATCA is a bit different. US CBT and FATCA are square pegs in round holes – they are not consistent with the world norm of RBT – and directly infringe the rights of individuals in thier country of primary residence and citizenship as well as the independence of other nations. We risk diluting this key distinction if we try to pull in these other aspects of US control if we are not careful. My view anyway….
This recent piece by an American writer who unleashes his exasperation on that lawless monstrosity:
http://www.rense.com/general96/allaboard.html
Look up the Foreign Corrupt Practices act. The definition of a US person in that regime is quite unbelievably far reaching. You can probably google and find lots of far reaching incidences. I think Siemens is one incidence, where some German guy was bribing somebody in some far off place. Since Siemens has an office in US, the law claims that it has jurisdiction to go after the guy.
Although no one feels sorry for the guy getting extradited from his home country or from anyplace that he is trying to hide, you can picture how the scenario works itself up. The guy is exposed on the front line getting jobs in the way all jobs are gotten in these places. He wins the contract, makes his bosses and his home govt happy. Til the guys US competitor rats him out to the US justice system. From there on, his company and govt change suits and suddently the guy finds himself on his own.
You will find incident after incident of the US prosecuting competing companies under US law.
You will also find coward govts that don’t have control of their own companies’ activities, and hence they have to bow when the US comes banging on their door.
Mark Twain – I absolutely agree. The US pushing extraterritorially is now the norm, and resistance is almost futile (so it seems).
This just makes a canadian passport null and void for a dual citizen. They can throw it in the garbage bin.
How completely absurd everything is becoming.
@Blaze
Those are excellent questions you’ve raised. They make it strikingly obvious how absurd US laws/policy is regarding citizenship and taxation.
I’m tempted to visit Cuba myself, however I’m a bit apprehensvie after learning about how the CIA/NSA has infiltrated hotels, public facilities, local internet services, etc. for illegal surveillance.
I had to go to the US embassy recently to get something notarized (for USD 50) and a young man of about 18 who was in front of me was requesting his first US passport. He presented his documentation and the consulate officer at the window said to him, “Have you ever heard of the Selective Service?” The young man responded no. The consular officer pushed a brochure to him and said, “I suggest that you read through this brochure.” That was it. This interaction bothered me a lot. There was no explanation that it is required to register for the Selective Service and that is why the young man should read through the brochure. Nor was there mention of possible penalties. It seemed very nonchalant and certainly not worth the taxes that I pay and this young man may have to pay for the supposed services we receive from the US embassy. It reminded me of the lack of information with respect to the FBAR and taxes in general that has plagued many dual nationals who do not reside in the US. It was hard to believe that the US Embassy took Selective Service registration seriously. If it is so important, why not take a little time and explain it?
The problem of “U.S. citizens” being subject to the “Corrupt Foreign Practices laws” has become a reason for people to renounce U.S. citizenship. Imagine a situation of a family business outside the U.S. Imagine that one of the owners is a U.S. person. Imagine further that this particular person has no U.S. connection. Imagine now, that because of an accident of birth, that this person cannot do business with a country that the U.S. does not like.
It is absurd, absolutely absurd. Point is that in the same way that the U.S. is using FATCA as an instrument of foreign policy, it is not using its citizens as instruments of foreign policy.
Remember poor Bobby Fischer. Can’t play chess in Serbia because of U.S. sanctions against Serbia.
When it comes to U.S. persons, the best thing is to NOT be one of them.
@SteveKlaus
From what I have read, it is not possible to get out of Selective Service by renouncing. This is because of the long-standing principle in the U.S. that naturalization cannot be used to get rid of previously existing obligations to a state. In practice; however, I can’t imagine them actually using the draft nowadays because of the professionalization of the military. Still, there is an anomaly: there are people born of U.S. parents overseas who not to have the right to vote but still have to register for the draft.
The problem with dual nationality is one of potentially conflicting obligations and divided loyalties. Imagine being a citizen of two countries, both of which draft their citizens for military service. How would that work, especially if the countries became enemies?
Though not as extreme as conflicts over military service, conflicts over tax laws are making many US duals feel they have no alternative but to become uni-national.
@Not that Lisa!
Oh, it’s not just that. If you go through the marriage process, in say, China and go get singlehood certification (sign a form and pay $50 for a stamp), they immediately cram brochures about greencards in your face. Be sure to hurry back and get that greencard! Do they bother to mention anything about what happens after it? Or the costs involved? Nope. It’s all FUD marketing to sell you on it.
The best part is what happens if you not only laugh, but then start advising others on the correct course of action… that’s where your 90 minute wait shortens to 5 minutes and a nice security guard with a gun requests you to leave immediately. That’s about all you need to know regarding the so-called “legitimacy” of the US government right there.
@Publius, I wouldn’t put it past the US to decide that we no longer can get out of our obligation to file by renouncing. They may make it impossible to stop being a US person for tax purposes….just pray if this happens that it it isn’t applied retroactively to those who’ve already filed 8854!!! They’ll want to broaden the US tax base any way they can.
@USCitizenAbroad
“….it is not using its citizens as instruments of foreign policy.”
Do you mean it is using its citizens as instruments of foreign policy? Otherwise, I think I am missing something………
A key concept here should be reciprocity or perhaps even consideration. Is the US ‘contract’ between citizen and state tangible? Does a US citizen ‘owe’ their birth or existence to the state? In that case is an American born with an obligation (minus balance) to the state? When does a public service imply indenture?
In the case of the USA, there appears to be no obligations between state and citizen other than the promise of judicial, legal prosecution.
The ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ seems to be one directional. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.