As I just heard this on CBC, The Sunday Edition: Welcome to the World on Online News — is this the death of serious journalism?, Molly found and commented on a Calgary Herald
“Egregious privacy breach attracts little attention” by Karin Klassen, Calgary Herald, May 16, 2014
Meanwhile, almost under the radar, except for a pocket of people trying desperately to raise the alarm, outrageous legislation has passed, enforceable in July, that directly affects the privacy of Canadians in the worst possible way. While indignant tweets were a flyin’ over whom precisely is allowed to read on my newsfeed that one of my friends needs help with diaper rash, we endured with barely a peep this egregious invasion of the privacy of actually important information.
…
Every country has a problem with this legislation; Stephen Harper, however, has handed over the ransom, possibly some argue, violating the Constitution. Canada is the last of the G7 countries to agree, but agree it did in a big way, by letting the Canada Revenue Agency be the middleman. (I suppose this was to avoid the banks getting a bad name, but also ostensibly to assure Canadians they are being violated by a not-for-profit organ.)Lest you think this isn’t you, keep in mind that
FACTAFATCA covers Americans in Canada, even if they’ve been here their entire lives, Canadians who worked in the U.S., Canadians born of American parents, and people born of Canadian parents who slipped out while on vacation in the U.S. (because whether you like it or not, the U.S. gives you citizenship, and then taxes on citizenship, rather than residency). If you are an American working for a Canadian corporation, or vice versa, the taxes of the corporation may also be open to scrutiny.
…
While the legislation only affects those who potentially have more than $50,000 in assets, to prove this could cost tens of thousands in fees, fines, accountants and lawyers — even if you have never earned a penny. It’s that or risk never being able to cross the border again; last year, an estimated 3,100 Americans decided to do just that, renouncing their patriotism to Uncle Sam altogether.
Thank you Molly for finding this in the Calgary Herald. Thank you, Karin Klassen, for so aptly pointing out what we seem to want our journalists to feed us. Trivia, soap opera, lists, while some of us watch our rights evaporate, in this case appeasing a foreign country’s government! And, Michael Enright, for putting the same on the Sunday morning air waves.
I’m aware of the U.S. taxation of it’s citizens worldwide. For me, I just found her statement that she is being considered a “U.S. citizen for taxation purposes” immediately after stating that she’s been denied U.S. citizenship to be very odd. Something must have triggered her to make this profoundly bizarre claim.
As you’ve pointed out, Ms. Frost MAY have a claim, but from what she has indicated in her letter, she is not now, nor has she ever been, a U.S. citizen, no matter how much she may wish to be. This was the point that I was trying to make.
Based on what she said, her situation appears to differ from someone whose parents registered them at birth, or before their 18′th birthday and may not have told them.
Every situation is different.
I also find KalC’s statement that it is “well established” that Ms. Frost has a claim to US citizenship if she were to want it. Nothing in her letter indicated that. Perhaps KalC has more information than we do.
You make the valid point that there is difference between a “US citizen” and a “US person”. Laura Frost’s letter did not.
A small edit to one of my posts. I wrote:
“As you’ve pointed out, Ms. Frost MAY have a claim, but currently she is not a U.S. citizen, no matter how much she may wish to be, which was the point that I was trying to make.”
I’d prefer the wording: “As you’ve pointed out, Ms. Frost MAY have a claim, but from what she has indicated in her letter, she is not now, nor has she ever been, a U.S. citizen, no matter how much she may wish to be. This was the point that I was trying to make.”
Based on what she said, her situation appears to differ from someone whose parents registered them at birth, or before their 18’th birthday and may not have told them.
Every situation is different.
Daniel,
“I’m aware of the U.S. taxation of it’s citizens worldwide. For me, I just found her statement that she is being considered a “U.S. citizen for taxation purposes” immediately after stating that she’s been denied U.S. citizenship to be very odd. Something must have triggered her to make this profoundly bizarre claim.”
Trust me on this one, many of us find the requirement of the US to file taxes, pay insane non-filing penalties, and hoovering up of our foreign personal information profoundly bizzare. That is, of course, after having been told we were NOT citizens, or never having been informed we WERE citizens.
Profundly bizarre is right, because very little of this situation stands up to the application of common sense.
“The Mom”
I’ve just reread Laura Frost’s letter and, after having a look a the US Citizenship and Immigration website, her statements make even less sense. She says that she was denied since “her mother had not registered her birth before 18”. This appears, not now or in the past, *not* to be a reason for denial. It is more likely that she was denied U.S. citizenship since her mother (and/or herself, depending on when she was born) did not satisfy some physical presence requirement.
Can you tell us, as vaguely as you like, what your situation is? Things like:
1. Did you move to Canada as a child? As an adult?
2. Were you born here to U.S. (or dual-citizenship) parent(s) and if so, had they ever lived in the U.S.?
3. If you were born in the U.S. and had/have U.S. citizenship, did you have (either by birth or naturalized) Canadian citizenship? If so, have you relinquished your U.S. citizenship (and maybe had to pay the expatriation tax, if applicable)?
I agree completely that these non-filing penalties and the IRS demanding people’s assets *without* determining the individual’s situation is completely wrong.
If you want to discuss this offline, feel free to e-mail me at my hotmail.com account. My userid is the initial of my first name, followed by an underscore, followed by my last name. You can get/use a free account with a random userid if you want.
Daniel, I have given my details here over the past two years, but I will add them here to answer your questions. I will follow with a brief history, in the hope that you may begin to understand the ridiculousness of the situations many of us find ourselves in.
Can you tell us, as vaguely as you like, what your situation is? Things like:
1. Did you move to Canada as a child? As an adult?
As an infant.
2. Were you born here to U.S. (or dual-citizenship) parent(s) and if so, had they ever lived in the U.S.?
Born in the US to Canadian parents in US temporarily.
3. If you were born in the U.S. and had/have U.S. citizenship, did you have (either by birth or naturalized) Canadian citizenship?
Registered as a Canadian birth abroad as an infant, as required by Canadian law.
If so, have you relinquished your U.S. citizenship (and maybe had to pay the expatriation tax, if applicable)?
Yes, renounced and paid the $450 sucker/get out of jail free fee at the US Consulate in Toronto last year. Also had to pay $1,200 in airfare for two to Toronto, as Consulate security does not allow you to take many things in, such as cell phones. I needed my husband along to hang on to my possessions.
History:
Canadian father voluntarily joined US Navy in early 1960s.
Married my Canadian mother, in Canada, a year later.
Mother moved to US where my father was still in Navy.
I was born in a US base hospital in the mid-60s, at a location just minutes from my parents’ Canadian hometown. That was due to my father’s medical coverage.
Upon mother’s release from maternity ward, we travelled the few minutes to parents’ Canadian hometown, and mother and I stayed with mother’s family for two months, until it was advised that mother could now fly with me (infant), back to the US home where my father was based.
At 14 MONTHS old, with my father’s enlistment complete, my parents left the US permanently, repatriating me to Canada. I have lived here since that late 1960s date.
Growing up, people told me I was dual, I wasn’t dual as the US didn’t believe in dual citizenship, etc. Just common belief of the general public. I have lived in a border town almost all of my life, and always received grief from US border officials when crossing, to the point where I stopped crossing for almost a decade because it was such a pain.
In the early 1990s, as a mature university student, I came into contact with a friend of a friend, who claimed to be a dual US/Cdn citizen. During the discussion, he strongly asserted I was a US citizen. At the same time, I read the back of my Cdn Registration of Birth Abroad certificate, and it had requirements to retain Canadian citizenship, which had age deadlines attached. I wondered what the sitution was with the US, so I called the State Dept. number at the Toronto Consulate.
My conversation with the consulate did not go well. I was passed from person to person, finally ending up with (IIRC) the Vice Consul. I was GRILLED by several people, including the VC, for at least 30 minutes. (I remember the length as I was a “starving student”, that couldn’t afford a long distance call.)
The grilling included many questions regarding history of residence, family history, and if I’d voted in Canada. Many of the questions I have forgotten. I was told by the VC that I was most certainly NOT a US citizen, as I had not resided in the US since I was an infant, and even worse, I had voted in Canada. I asked if there was anything I had to do (I didn’t WANT to be American by the time I was 25 anyway), and I was told no.
So, I had gone to the source…State Dept., and they told me I was NOT a US citizen.
With all of the hoopla after 9/11, and living in a border town, I obtained my first Canadian passport in 2008, along with my Canadian husband and Canadian children, so that I could cross the border if I desired. As we live in northern Ontario, it sometimes makes sense to travel to southern Ontario through Michigan. I crossed a few times, with no problem. Until about 2010, maybe 2011.
Suddenly I was back to having difficulty crossing the border, due to US birth place on my Canadian passport. I had an argument with the US border official. He was demanding I was a US citizen, and could travel ONLY on a US passport. I informed him that State, in 1992, informed me that I was NOT a US citizen because I had not met a residency requirement, and had voted in Canada. He became very hostile, telling me to get a US passport, and that State was wrong.
Back in 1992, I did not have the ability to hop on the internet, and research whether State was snowing me, or not. In 2010 or 2011, I DID have the ability to search online, to try to figure out what the US border official was talking about. And that was not only my Oh My God moment, but also the beginning of my all encompassing disgust with the US.
What I discovered was that the US border guard was right, I WAS in fact a US citizen. State had lied to me in 1992. The law regarding voting in a foreign election was overturned by the US Supreme Court the very year I returned to Canada as an infant. In 23 years, State didn’t know the very court rulings that affected their department? Not likely. They knew that the only way I could claim any “benefit” of citizenship was if I sought some sort of ruling, and I strongly suspect that was common practice of State during those years. What starving student is going to hire a US immigration lawyer to fight a citizenship claim, when they don’t want to live there?
At the time of my OMG moment in 2010 or 2011, I also discovered that the US (IRS) considered me to be a tax cheat, as I had never filed US tax returns (although always 100% tax compliant in Canada), or FBARs detailing my “foreign/offshore” bank accounts. I learned I would be required by US law to give all of these personal financial details (account numbers, institution name and address, balances) of both my own accounts, and those I was joint on with my husband, elderly father, etc. It angered and disgusted me that a foreign government “required” me to divulge financial information that was not my own, as I take care of my elderly father (with HIS money), and my husband has been our sole income earner in the household for almost 20 years. They also wanted my youngest child’s RESP info because I was the one that opened it, not my husband.
So, it’s long, but that’s my story.
I have not filed tax returns or FBARs with the US (I refuse to do so), but I did file an 8854 exit tax form. I refused to obtain a tax identification number for them on the form. I also included a statement as to why I did not have one (no SSN), and a very nasty set of comments on their extortionist IRS/government witchhunt, and the incompetence or outright lies of the State Dept. I told them I expected that this would be the end of the matter, as I had PAID to renounce a citizenship their government told me I DID NOT HAVE.
According to THEIR rules (which they change all the time), as I was born a dual citizen, I am out of the IRS “US person” group with the filing of the 8854, and exempted from the exit tax due to being born dual/filing of the 8854. That was filed in the spring of 2014. As far as State is concerned, I ceased to be a US person when I renounced in the spring of 2013. As a final kick in the face to them, I refused to file timely, and sent after their deadline. I am actually hoping the IRS or Treasury sends me some nasty form letter, making demands, because I would love to tell them to get stuffed again. Or that my past tax/FBAR filings were lost in Lois Lerner’s computer crash, and are now unavailable. 😀
The left hand knows not what the right hand is doing in the US. When they do seem to stumble upon these ridiculous situations, they really don’t care. That includes the ignorant politicians that drive these situations on, like Michigan’s dear Carl Levin.
And, this is the jist of what is wrong. People were absolutely told things they believed long ago about their US citizenship or loss of US citizenship. We took what we were told as true and went on with our lives for the most part. Now this.
I and others have been trying to get the Department of State to give a definitive answer to “Is there a CLAIM to US citizenship — i.e. is there an OPT-IN to US citizenship if your facts allow, rather than an OPT-OUT of US citizenship. At least one Canadian Conservative MP (Keddy) tells us that US citizenship after the age of 19(?) has to be APPLIED FOR, that it is not automatic. Of course, this differs from what others of us have been told by the US Department of State and what “vaguely” appears in the US Citizenship regulations. Will Mr. Keddy stand behind his loose words for ALL ACCIDENTAL AMERICANS, accidental US citizenship from birth on either side of the border? That would take a whole lot of innocent persons, and the children of many here, out of the US collateral damage equation.
Then, we have Conservative MP Chris Alexander tell Canadians
Either stand by your words and stand up or ALL “Accidental Americans”, gentlemen, or eat those words.
Thanks, calgary, for reminding me of a point I forgot in my post.
I very strongly resent being called an American in Canada, by both the Canadian media, and Canadian politicians. I am NOT American, I am 100% Canadian. This situation has turned how I view everything on it’s head, including the Canadian political parties that I have supported for more than two decades. I no longer trust governments AT ALL to represent the interests of citizens.