As Bill C-31 winds its way through the Canadian parliamentary system, those who defend the FATCA IGA legislation buried within 300+ pages of the omnibus bill it is hidden in, respond to the cry of the victims, by repeating the message, ‘Well, you might win a Charter Challenge, but if you do, it will hurt ALL Canadians’.
Should the estimated one million Canadians, deemed ‘US persons’ by a foreign nation, and their family members feel guilty about actively opposing this deal with the devil? Should they all just shut-up, and take one for the team? After all there are 30-something million other Canadians who are not affected by a FATCA IGA with the USA, who could care less, or so it seems.
Are Canadian citizens, deemed ‘US persons’, asking their fellow Canadians too much by insisting they risk their economic well being in exchange for the rights and freedoms, and economic well being of the ‘US persons’ in their midst?
Do Canadians want to live in a country where the majority is protected – until it’s not – at the expense of others who find themselves in the cross-hairs of a foreign nation through no fault of their own?
Has Canada become a mockery of a country with a reputation for high standards of human rights and freedoms?
Has Canada never been what many thought it was, with those deemed ‘US persons’, the first to be disillusioned by the reality that none of us are free, and none of us are protected, as is evidenced when a bigger power comes knocking and demanding tribute from those it illegitimately considers its own?
NorthernStar, in an email she shared with me, writes the following comment with regard to an article written by Don Cayo published at the Vancouver Sun:
I refused the offer. and I got off lightly….
In the early 90’s after 24 years in Canada as a permanent resident my husband and I chose to become Canadian citizens… We realized that we were never going back to the USA, to work or retire. Our children were born here and we have long established good paying jobs. We loved Canada and it was a good fit as we were Canadian in our hearts and beliefs.Somehow, unlike most Americans who expatriate, I found out that US taxes were to be filed while living outside of the USA. I was an A student in US History and Economic Geography in high school and never was taught Citizen based Taxation (the exceptional America uses ) and Resident Based Taxation (the rest of the world uses).
I guess I found out through reading, which I do a lot of. My mother once told me I would go to my room and read. I filed US taxes for my husband and I, all by myself. The most complicated part was currency conversion. We never had to pay as we were far below the US level where one must pay US taxes. One year in the 80s the IRS sent us back a $2,000. US income tax refund.. I promptly called the IRS and sent the cheque back as we never worked in the USA since 1969. The last US tax filing I did was for the year 1993 when we became citizens.
I am thankful to be Canadian and to have the good health care insurance as my husband and one of our children were diagnosed two months apart in 1998 with cancer. They had the best of care in Toronto’s Sunnybrook Hospital. Unfortunately it was terminal for both of them. I compared there treatment with that given in the USA and they had the same superior treatments with no medical costs for us. My husband left me his pension intact. I am now retired and living on it..In January 2009 I was visiting one of my children in Toronto when we discovered while reading the Toronto Paper (probably the Sun) that the Democrats Abroad was holding an inauguration party for President Obama, who I admired greatly. I decided to go to the party as it was an open invite. I met mostly Americans working in Toronto but planning to go back.. I signed the email list just to know what might be interesting happening with the organization. In 2012 there was an DA email out about FATCA.. Long story short there was a meeting in Yorkdale that spring about FATCA hosted by DA. The room was filled to standing room capacity. FATCA was a shock to many but the Dems abroad were kind enough to have the Tax Compliance Industry there waiting to take our money with over a $1000 plus for each year US taxes not filed if we chose to use them.. We were advised we could face heavy penalties from the IRS if we did not file I was shocked that I had been wrong and that I had still to file US Taxes.
A few months later I found online The Isaac Brock Society and Maple Leaf Sandbox They saved my sanity. I found out that in my circumstances I needed to get a Citizen Loss of Nationality (CLN). There are many of us, and many who do not post on these sites but are all together on the bus to fight this immoral agreement, FATCA. We are the modern day Rosa Parks. I am free now… I have that official paper, backdated to the day I became citizen. Others must pay a lot of money to do this , or mothers can not renounce for their adult mentally challenged child, born in Canada, because the US citizenship is so “precious”. See Calgary411 on Brock for that scenario. There is no easy way out for most. For many it means giving up all their life savings, earned in Canada only. It is not at all like giving up Canadian citizenship. Canada is a very much kinder country.
I am prepared to help fund and campaign for the Charter Challenge to FATCA, even though I am safe. I will do this for ALL Canadians, not just American Canadians. I treasure my privacy and the Charter of Rights and Freedom . The Harper government has given in to the US bully. Other Prime Ministers stood up to the American bully and said NO. If Canada had said NO, other countries would follow suit. There are over a million American persons in Canada.
Now will Russia, China, India, Saudia Arabia, Japan require the banking info of dual Canadians from their country? Will Harper give in and give them this banking information.
Canada has caved in to the Banking and Investment/Compliance Industrial Complex.
It has gone against what Matthew 16:26 said
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
another saying I have on my desk is: Tyranny wins when good men do not say anything.
What is happening now… is like what happened in Europe in the 30s. Do you want American Canadians to be second class citizens for the benefit of money and the loss of our Canadian sovereignty?
NorthernStar received this response to her comment:
Thanks for this. It is very interesting. And I’m very pleased it is working out well for you.
If you go ahead with your Charter challenge, you may … very possibly win. You will no doubt consider this a great moral victory, and I cannot disagree. But I believe it will contribute to an economic disaster. And that was the point ….. You have every right to believe the victory is worth the cost, however, but you ought not go into this without understanding what the consequences will be. And not just for those who have held American citizenship, but for all Canadians.
Personally, I think you are wrong to assume other countries would follow suit. I think Canada would be hung out to dry. I don’t like this — I think it’s wrong — but our indignation about it and two or three bucks would get us a cup of coffee.
@ Sid
Just to nitpick, it was Eisenhower who warned about the Military Industrial Complex. I’m always surprised when I come across that information.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-military-industrial-complex
@ badger
As always you are bang on. With an easily modified FATCA IGA enabled and implemented here, the US gov’t could actually expand its definition of “US person”, despite the CND gov’t doing a winky-wink to try to skirt the current US definition. Furthermore, FATCA essentially gives the US gov’t control of CND banking policy so they can make sure the winky-wink stops and ALL “US persons” are tagged (the key is the question asked). Then their data will be bagged and shipped off to the IRS inquisitors, in many cases without them even knowing this has happened. There will be heart attacks when those first brown envelopes begin to arrive because there are still far too many people who are totally oblivious to a future threatened by FATCA fustercluck bombs.
This has probably been stated before and much more eloquently, but Don Cayo’s article and his response to Northernstar, gives us a good idea of what can be expected as the Charter challenge proceeds. Those who oppose the FATCA-IGA will be vilified for potentially destroying the Canadian economy.
The business media is guilty of repeating, virtually verbatim, what corporations put out, either in press releases or by other means. For example, just look at almost any business story about some merger and compare it to a press release. The story and release are almost identical.
I’m very thankful for Lynne, Badger, Calgary411 and all the others, too numerous to name, who can argue so coherently for all of us…
Yes, this fight is not for faint of heart
@Hazy: I think we can expect to be vilified by our own government as well as by the business elite. The 284 pages I received from Finance Canada was very clear. Their only concern was for financial institutions.
In those pages were a couple of letters from NDP MP (Don Davies and Alex Atamerenko). Flaherty did write back to Davies but they dismissed Atamerenko concerns as “confused.” I read Mr. Atamerenkno’s letter and he was not confused. He understood the implications of FATCA earlier than most people–and before most of us have ever even heard of FATCA.
The most glaring thing was they circulated Peter Hogg’s letter to some financial institutions while they were “considering” whether to release it through an Access to Information request to Elizabeth May. I don’t believe most MPs even knew of its existence then.
If they do not amend the Act and we proceed with the legal challenge, we should expect it to be brutal.
@maz57
Oh dear, I guess I should have clarified that my by the time we get to my Dad’s grandfather, the Quaker line seems to be no more. I know what you mean though, about the high moral ground. I was researching something I had a hunch on and came across the fact that one of my great—whatevers, had been kicked out several times for unacceptable behavior. I was not very surprised by that! Then the family joined this group called the Independent Order of Odd Fellows. I am not clear what that actually is though their graves are located in a place with IOOF over the entrance.
@Badger, bravo! superb commentary!
@Trish, my family haven’t been Quakers for a long, long time but, I am impressed by how their spirit of doing the right thing seems to have carried on even in the face of back lash.
@All, I still think Allison’s recommendations which would allow the banks to suffer no with holding while still upholding the rights of Canadian citizens ought to be pushed and pushed hard. Cayo seems to have utterly ignored the well thought out solution to FATCA and gone for the fear mongering “Oh the economy will fail!” I must say he seems to admit we have the moral high ground in protecting the Charter. What is sad is that he thinks thirty (%) pieces of silver are worth selling out our Charter over. It won’t end there. Frankly, the U.S. is NOT going to with hold on Canada if we uphold our law and especially not if we under took Allison Christains approach. We have time and let us not forget we could demand the U.S. start on the same date as we do collecting the exact same information inside the U.S. as they are demanding from everyone else.
@Hazy Thanks, I was thinking of Kennedy’s secret society speech. This link has both speeches.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/flashback-president-john-f-kennedy-secret-society-speech
I’m amazed at how much Quaker blood is on this site. Me too. My ancestor was an honest-to-God Puritan who landed in Massachusets in the late 1640’s. He was a small town magistrate who quit in disgust over the Salem witch trials and became a Quaker at what must have been great personal cost. Now we are in our own witch trial of sorts, only the witches are champaigne-swilling fatcats (I’m a beer man myself and can barely afford that on my income). What the Vancouver journalist must know is that an injustice is an injustice and no economic expediency argument will fly on this website.By the way, I am one of the Permanent Residents following this site. For family reasons I never applied for Canadian citizenship, but I have made a life and raised a family here (36 years). This is home to me and while my case may not be as compelling as many of yours, I would hope to think I am one with every one of you. Thanks for your contagious passion and spunk!
@ Lake Superior Guy
Welcome. We’re all in the same boat. We just boarded from different gangplanks is all. Don Cayo might be resigned to living the life of a “borg” but I guess you noticed that most people here do not accept that “resistance is futile”.
@Lake Superior, you are in the same boat and we need all the strong backs we can get.
Also, you are going to be constantly pestered to get Canadian Citizenship for your own good!!! Now go and do it.
@Calgary et all…..
As I look at the final FATCA regs I ask, why bother with an IGA?
The exemptions were very wide on the RRSP and similar front!!
(B) Non-retirement savings accounts. An account (other than an
insurance or annuity contract) that satisfies the following conditions under the
laws of the jurisdiction where the account is maintained:
(1) The account is subject to regulation as a savings vehicle for purposes
other than for retirement;
(2) The account is tax-favored (as described in paragraph (b)(2)(i)(E) of
this section);
(3) Withdrawals are conditioned on meeting specific criteria related to the
purpose of the savings account (for example, the provision of educational or
medical benefits), or penalties apply to withdrawals made before such criteria are
met; and
(4) Annual contributions are limited to $50,000 or less;
(C)
From the Final FATCA reg itself.
A bank could register, identify as a US Person and NOTHING would happen to the person or the bank if local law did not permit identification and/or account closure. Follow this little ditty along and see the tiger with no teeth.
The bank can ask you real hard for waivers, real real hard, and triple hard.
(iii) Closure or transfer of U.S. account. If the participating FFI (or branch
thereof) is prohibited by law from reporting a U.S. account to the IRS under
paragraph (d) of this section and the participating FFI either does not obtain a
valid and effective waiver (and Form W-9) or prohibitions on disclosure cannot by
law be waived, the participating FFI (or branch thereof) must close or transfer the
account within a reasonable time. If the participating FFI cannot close or transfer
the account absent the account holder consenting to closure, the participating
FFI must request such a consent from such account holder and, if obtained,
close or transfer the account within a reasonable period of time.
Sold down the river for thirty pieces of silver, sold down the river.
Exactly, exactly:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/05/16/don-cayo-uncle-sam-makes-canadians-an-offer-we-cant-refuse-doh/comment-page-2/#comment-1785565
@Calgary 411:
Re:
“And, we are blind to what is happening once again. Submissive cowards to let one million US Persons and their families be the fall guys. Will this not set a Canadian precedent for other countries’ nationals to be hunted, their private information turned over to a foreign state?”
Has Don Cayo heard of Martin Niemoller, who said:
“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out for me.”
@Calgary411, we know what happens when you sell your fellow man for thirty pieces of silver. Life is circular and it gets you in the end hence the second greatest commandment when Jesus answered the pharisees. Their time shall come.
George and Queenston,
May your observations be noted by some fair journalists! Thanks.
Please see Karin Klassen’s column on FATCA in yesterday’s Calgary Herald:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/op-ed/Klassen+Egregious+privacy+breach+attracts+little/9848201/story.html.
Calgary 411 — Perhaps this could have its own page? I don’t know how to do that. Thanks.
Thanks, Molly. I have just put a post up, thanks to your good work finding it in the Calgary Herald!
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/05/18/is-lazy-journalism-the-fault-of-the-journalists-or-are-they-just-giving-us-what-we-ask-for/
My husband is a permanent resident and has been for 53 years, since he was 3 years old. He has never applied for Canadian citizenship but will be mailing the application in this week. We travel to the US often to visit families and friends and do not look forward to having to give that up. We are very worried about this law and that we will eventually be caught. As so many others, we have worked hard to save for retirement and the thought of losing this is frightening and yet we feel that we even trying to become compliant would be showing support for such a terrible law.
I also believe that the Conservative MP’s know that pushing through the IGA is wrong and they are hoping that they can do it without too many Canadian’s knowing. You truly have to wonder how these people sleep at night.
I know that we will be facing much backlash as the Charter fight continues and everyone will have to stay strong because we know we are just trying to protect Canada.
On another note, we recently visited friends in the US. Our friend was born to 2 American parents in a American hospital outside the US in 1943. She lived 3 years as a child outside the country and then returned to the states. She has worked her entire adult life in the US, paying taxes and even had a US passport until she chose to not renew it a few years ago as she did not plan on travelling anymore. When she went to apply for Medicare she was told that she is not eligible because she is not a US citizen. They told her she would have to go through the process of ‘naturalization’ in order to get the benefits that are due to US citizens. What a mess.
@forever Canadian
She does not have to be a citizen to receive it. Some of my family are gc holders in the US, worked & paid into the Social Security system when they commenced working in the US & has paid US taxes… payment for the medicare is taken out of the SS monthly. She needs to check with the SS office to ensure she has enough points/credits to qualify. Citizenship is not required for SS monthly which is similar to our pension as long as she has enough credits/points. Make sure she only gets the info from the SS office… if she is not happy with the info… call them up to verify. When I go to the states to deal with elderly issues for family… info given in the s is not the same info that is given over in a phone call… vice versa… basically… both hands don’t give the same info… If she is receiving SS & I think over 65… she is qualified to get it…
@George
I wonder if sometimes the IGAs are part of a face-saving exercise. The U.S. government has gotten itself into a bind because it forgot when drawing up its tax laws that the typical U.S.-born person abroad lives in Mexico or Canada, not Monaco. As such, the dragnet is pulling in very different people from the types Congress was talking about when it passed FATCA (and very different from the people who are mentioned in the literature on tax avoidance, for example). When I looked at the U.K. list, my thought was that they had listed just about every single account that a middle-class person might have that either counts as a foreign trust or through which they might own foreign mutual funds. On the issue of discrimination, it is notable that at the same time that the U.S. government was denying that accounts were being closed on U.S. citizens, it was starting to put anti-discrimination clauses in the IGAs. I wonder if one of the reasons that they don’t trumpet FATCA and the crackdown is that they know that the accounts listed as non-reportable in the IGA are highly problematic for bona fide middle-class overseas Americans under current tax laws.
Politically, this is a difficult situation. The American public seem to be in love with Picketty and the need to tax capital and want to get at the 1%. The politicians sold FATCa on the basis of getting the 1%, The midterms are coming up, so appearances are everything,
Why so many people of Quaker ancestry? My ancestors came over with William Penn and I have always been proud of my Society of Friends roots! We were Quaker until the Revolutionary War, which my ancestor got kicked out for fighting in.
foreverCanadian,
Thank you for so much for joining the conversation here and sharing your family’s situation — and thanks for your commitment to a Charter Challenge in Canada. You are among those who understand and will have similar situations.
I also appreciate the information you share regarding your friend born to two American parents in a US hospital outside the US. To me, it is an example of the capriciousness and evasiveness regarding definitions of US citizenship and just when and when not it is to be or not be so. To me, another example of how much a US agency can squeeze out of a person based on “US citizenship” — or, how much benefit, in this case, they will try to withhold. Your friend who has paid US taxes for all these years and has held a US passport should easily be able to prove US citizenship. But, why is it so — and might she or others just take that answer as gospel and go without benefits to which they are entitled? What a mess indeed.
@Publius, you suggest that the damage caused by FATCA on ordinary US citizens living outside the country might have been inadvertent. I used to think so, too — that ordinary people were just “collateral damage” in the search for wealthy tax-evaders. But now I think the Treasury Department and the IRS have realized that they can use FATCA as an opportunity for raising revenue from the millions of US citizens and green-card holders outside the country who have not been compliant with US extra-territorial tax laws. I no longer think those people are collateral damage. I think they are now the main target, because the US stands to gain a lot more money from them in penalties and back taxes than they would get just from the relatively few very rich tax evaders.
I don’t think the IGAs are a face-saving exercise, as you put it, but rather a way to enable the implementation of FATCA, which would otherwise collapse because of the complexity and economic damage that would result by enforcing FATCA directly on individual financial institutions around the world.
@Publius
Wouldn’t it seem natural as one of the first set of immigrants, Quaker lineage would be reflected here? What is interesting about it is the fact that the same type of issue (“Taxation Without Representation) is prompting their descendants to emerge and resist, even though many families haven’t been Quaker for several generations.