At George’s suggestion, this comment is now a post.
BC Doc says: “An article from Lebanon. A good quote”:
More pressing in the immediate term is the issue of privacy and the safety of American citizens. “One thing the Treasury has not thought about is how do you protect US citizens? In a country like Lebanon, with Hezbollah and other US designated terrorist organizations, banks will identify US citizens, which could put them at risk,” said the BDL source.
And:
Further questions may arise if there is a dawning realization about negative economic impacts on the US itself. “What happens when we start shorting payments on our Treasury bonds (TBs) by 30 percent? A sovereign holder is not subject to withholding, but for a private institution, what if the interest payment is done through SWIFT to a commercial bank that has not signed an IGA? Treasury will take the interest,” said Jim Jatras, Manager of RepealFATCA.com, which is lobbying against the law in Washington. “This is the kind of thing that could promote dumping TBs, and affect interest rates and the dollar as a global currency, which are issues nobody has thought out.”
There are several well known Green Card holders who have returned to their native land and threw the green card in a drawer and haven’t been to the U.S. lately, but they will want to return some day and KA-BLAM-MO. What an awkward moment when immigration racks them up and puts them in jail for tax evasion.
The law of unintended consequences but we see this more often than not, from our politicians. Debate and pass it and wait for the consequences.
When we descend into lawlessness they stand back and wring their hands and are truly amazed that it happened. They then do the self same thing again and Ka-BLAM-O SAME THING HAPPENS.
Are we represented by stupid people or what?
There is a way to stop it all, but the politicians are so addicted to ”campaign contributions” from those they did favors for that they have ignored the obvious. The FairTax Bill HR25 cannot get a hearing.
Ah.. But Americans who leave the homeland do not deserve safety. They are considered traitor scum. In fact most Americans wish death upon them anyway for their insolence. The harsh reality.
Aren’t people already getting rid of US TB with the risks involved?
@Beaker, US citizens abroad are scorned by homelanders, as you say, and they are also envied by citizens of the countries where they live, because they can re-enter the US any time they want to. So, few people except other expats have much sympathy for their tax plight. The stark choice for US citizens outside the US seems to be (1) return to the US to live, (2) pay a lot of money to remain compliant with US tax laws, (3) try to continue to hide one’s US personhood, or (4) relinquish/renounce US citizenship. Since many expats don’t consider (1) and (2) real options, and since (3) is increasingly dangerous because of dragnets like FATCA assisted by IGAs, (4) is becoming increasingly popular.
Does anyone know if any of the major print media in the US has written about the safety concerns for ex-pat Americans posed by FATCA?
What could possibly go wrong with asking countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria to compile detailed lists of “US persons” along with their personal financial information??!!
As the July 1st implementation deadline approaches, the safety and security downside of FATCA is another angle which should be promoted. I suspect there’s a story here for the major print media (WSJ, NYT, Washington Post) and that if the story were printed, FATCA hating politicians in Congress would jump on it as another reason to quash FATCA.
If I were a reporter, I would be keen to ask State Department personnel, “How will FATCA impact the safety and security of ex-patriated Americans in countries such as Afghanistan and Lebanon where terrorism is real concern?” I would pose the same question to ex-Pats who are living and working in these areas. Without asking, I already know the answer– FATCA is a grave security risk for so-called US persons living and working in the so-called developing world and “frontier markets.”
I was watching a story on a US citizen swearing in ceremony and couldn’t think about all the new tax slaves gained.
http://www.necn.com/05/15/14/Hundreds-become-US-citizens-in-naturaliz/landing.html?blockID=866514&feedID=11106
@Beaker, Are we traitors if we left as children and our parents were not even American?
Reminds me of the Michael Young article posted here a while ago:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/12/07/fatca-facilitating-attacks-by-terrorists-on-citizens-abroad/
@BC_Doc
“Does anyone know if any of the major print media in the US has written about the safety concerns for ex-pat Americans posed by FATCA?”
I suspect not, although I don’t read US print media. Those kinds of stories aren’t very popular or of much interest in the USA and most journalists there are conformists. It would probably take someone of the calibre of Glenn Greenwald, “The Intercept”, to do it justice.
Trust me, I’m sure the Middle Eastern banks will be seriously considering a “FATCA FATWA” should the US try to enforce its claims in the Middle East and it will put American lives at risk.
What is really amazing is that no matter WHAT any person or group (or even Senators and Congressman) say or propose to the US Treasury/IRS to try to stop this disaster and the harm done to ‘US Persons’ abroad, the ONLY real response by Treasury/IRS is NO reaction and just FULL STEAM AHEAD. Nothing/no proposal from Americans Abroad, the testimony and submissions to the House Ways and Means and the Senate Finance Committee gets any reaction from Treasury or the IRS – like talking to a brick wall.
no. I have not seen the US media address the security issue, and I have been watching. The media, as instructed by the administration is seldom reporting FATCA for anything other than its grand and glorious purpose, as presented by Reid, Schumer, Bill Nelson, Carl Lenin, and Obummer himself.
@WhiteKat, “Are we traitors if we left as children and our parents were not even American?”
The answer to that question is no you are not a traitor, it is your parents that are traitors and abusers for taking you away for the greatest nation on earth and in time.
But you are indeed a traitor because when you turned 18 you failed to return to the stream like salmon do!!
-sarcasm off
@Don,
>I was watching a story on a US citizen swearing in ceremony and couldn’t think about all the new tax slaves gained.
Escape from the lower limit estate tax if their spouse dies and they inherit their own stuff.
Escape from facing the exit tax if the government just happens to decide to kick them out of the country (you look like a juicy plumb if you have money).
You get to vote in the country you live in.
The ability to renounce from your former country if they pass some crazy tax law like the US ones.
I’ll be doing it at some point I think.
@Don & Neill: I wonder if the swearing in ceremony advises the new Americans of their tax laws. The US certainly didn’t do that in the past as we all know know. Been there done that! I continue to tell all the young people that I meet not to consider the US as either a place to study, work, or marry or invest or join the US society in any way shape or form. I am reaching quite a few kids and they are getting the message out to their friends and fellow students. There are always offers of scholarships etc that make study in the US attractive however the strings attached are horrendous. University and high school students are listening.
@Don
I just read the article (but didn’t watch the video). It’s stunning to see how naive some people are about the country they decided to become a citizen of. Brainwashing at its best…
@Ann
That’s really great. I’m sure some may be disappointed when they hear what you have to say (shattered dreams and all that), but you very well could be literally saving their lives by educating them on what the consequences of establishing ties to the US really are. Bravo!
@Ann
Having warned them about U.S. citizenship-based taxation this year, I am definitely adding a greencard warning next year. Taxation without representation at its finest! I figure that should be enough.
@Whitekat @George
I suspect that what is really getting the Americans is the latest emigrant, the American Dream, which seems to have moved to Canada (unaware that all emigration from the U.S. is supposed to be tax-motivated). A New York Times columnist wrote recently about bringing the American Dream back where it belonged, as if you Canadians had snuck over the border at night and taken its exemplary levels of social mobility and thriving middle class.
@Neill, I am split right now. I’ve been having a green card for 10 years. It expires this year.
I am really unsure about what I need to do. I will have to make a decision within a couple months whether I renew it or apply for US citizenship. OVDI left a bitter taste in my mouth.
From the perspective of someone married to a US citizen who isn’t too willing to move to my country, US Citizenship has certainly some advantages, but it eats me up inside. I’d potentially have problems later on opening a bank account in my home country. etc. if we spend more time there at retirement.
This is a difficult choice.
@NotYetaUSCitizen
I met a taxi driver in Seattle who asked me the same thing. We only started talking about it because he told us he was from Eritrea. He had no idea that America also imposes tax on its emigrants. I said that US citizenship makes sense if you never plan to leave. I guess if you obtain yours, you can plan to never leave. Sorry, I know this doesn’t help, but you will have to decide which side of the wall you want to be on. Stories like yours are just as important as the record breaking renunciations, as it is evidence that CBT has the potential to effect immigration. Have you considered writing to your local representative about your dilemma?
I was looking at the passport renewal form yesterday. That $500 threat to give my social and indicate where I live makes me feel like a cow.
@NotYetaUSCitizen,
How did you fare in OVDI? My wife isn’t a citizen but my kids are. I can’t and currently don’t want to leave. Getting though the exit tax would be as bad as doing OVDI for me unless I waited till old age.
I don’t really see myself ever leaving at present. I just don’t like the fact that my options have been closed off to me (even if the one I would have taken is still open).
On the question of whether to take US Citizenship, I would have thought the answer was simple. If you have a greencard and are not intending to abandon it, then taking citizenship is probably the better route. This might seem counter-intuitive, since so many people on our situation want to renounce. But consider this: a greencard holder is subject to the same tax regime (worldwide taxation, exit tax) without any of the benefits or protections of of citizenship. Indeed, given that the immigration authorities can revoke your greencard for a variety of reasons, including a failure to maintain permanent residence in the US, being a citizen actually gives you more freedom. Take, for example, a UK citizen with a greencard who decides to return home for a few years but is not necessarily certain of cutting ties to the US. In addition to the hassle of maintaining your greencard without a permanent residence in the US, doing something as simple as asserting treaty rights in respect of tax could be grounds for the administrative revocation of the greencard, which in turn, could end up subjecting you to the exit tax. At least as a citizen, you can decide when/where/how to renouce.
@Ann
I definitely agree that Canadian young persons are less interested in pursuing opportunities (of whatever kind) south of the border these days although I think CBT/FBAR/FATCA is only a small component to why this is happening. There are many other factors:
1. Canada is doing well these days–at least when compared to the USA. The general mood in Canada is more upbeat than in the USA. That wasn’t always the case–definitely in the 80’s and 90’s it was the other way around.
2. Immigration hurdles. Whether you want to eventually become a green card holder or a US citizen or not, anyone coming to the USA is going to be stuck in temporary visa hell for a long time. The life of someone on a temporary visa in the USA is not easy–even if they are on the temporary visa by choice to avoid US “personhood”. The moment you lose your job you are subject to deportation–and in the recessions of the last 15 years a lot of people HAVE lost their jobs. If you mess up with the immigration rules you can be instantly barred for 5 years to life. State drivers’ licenses as well as one’s spouse’s ability to work in the USA are tied to immigration status too.
3. The exchange rate. The US dollar has rebounded a bit relative to the Canadian dollar recently. But gone are the days when you could work for awhile in the USA and save up big US bucks at a big premium to the loonie.
4. A generally better social climate in Canada in a variety of ways.
5. A less stable economic system south of the border. The mess of the economic crisis of 2008-2009 wouldn’t happen in Canada.
6. General US misbehavior is turning people off–and now that we’ve seen it in both Democratic and Republican administrations it becomes an American issue rather than something that can be blamed just on one party or president.
Basically young people are looking at the USA and seeing a lot of problems–that the USA is having trouble bouncing back from–and it is becoming increasingly questionable whether there is a career benefit to being in the USA. This stuff about CBT/FBAR/FATCA is another facet of this but I don’t think it is the primary consideration.
@uscitizenshipnightmare
This is essentially my analysis as well. I would have reservations about whether it is wise to come to the USA in the first place given the current climate. But if one is already here with a green card, then I don’t see any disadvantages–and I do see some advantages–to getting citizenship.
Dash1729,
Interesting comment. I would add they need to take into consideration: https://www.healthcare.gov/what-do-immigrant-families-need-to-know/.