128 thoughts on “Maple Sandbox Invited to Finance Committee on #FATCA #IGA in #C31”

1. @Pacifica, there is starting to be a lot of history here at Brock, with interesting older posts that newbies never see. Perhaps we should start a ‘post of the week’ section where we feature an older post that people might find interesting.

2. @Pacifica

   Here is a post based on your ealier comment to which you refer:

   http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/those-trying-to-understand-why-americansabroad-are-renoucing/

   The comment was found here:

   http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/08/14/has-your-life-been-stolen-from-you-by-the-irs-comment-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-485415

   I also got high blood pressure too, for the first time in my life, after I learnt about this “US mess” in August 2011. (It actually went back down to 118 when I checked it about two weeks after I made my CLN application at Toronto in May 2012). But between Aug 2011-Feb 2012, with my blood pressure spiking, I lost 30 pounds in six months. Which seemed kind of odd as I’d heard high blood pressure had a connection to overweight, and I was downright skinny having lost 30 pounds. I had insomnia, too, and depression for the first time in my life. I’d always rolled with the punches, but I’d never met anything like this.

   18 months ago, on another thread, I posted,

   “…. The worst thing that ever happened to me before this [being an alleged US person in 2011] was a fire 30 years ago. When this US mess started, I felt that it was “fifty or a hundred times worse” than the fire. As it drags on, I now feel that being trapped in a burning building was “a picnic in the park” compared to this US mess. And another thing, the US gov knows there’s a problem and they could help straighten out this mess, unlike the arsonist who was insane. I actually bore the arsonist no ill will, which turned out to be the best way to get on with my life. I would like to move on from this crisis the same way, but the US isn’t making it easy. ….”

   At the time I wrote that post in February 2012, although I had not posted about it I had been to been to my local US consulate, which tried to convince me I could not have possibly ended my US citizenship in 1979. Whilst I remained quiet, rather like a little mouse, I did not give in (it was too important – I can’t exactly re-live 33 years of my life). But then after failing to convince me of this for about 20 minutes, suddenly, to my surprise, about-face, I was told maybe it was possible I had ceased to be a US citizen in 1979 and I could come back 7 months later for 2 to 3 hours of intensive questioning for them determine if I had. The person who interviewed me in Jan 2012 was quite interested in taxes. There was no Consulate Report Directory then – this sure made me realise the need for one – I’d been collecting the few expatriation stories I could find on the internet simply to prepare efficiently for my meeting (not expecting trouble). But because of these few stories, I knew that harassment was not proper procedure for sure, and it also seemed pretty clear that Dept of State was not the least bit interested in taxes.

   Anyway, typical tax dodger, I was making minimum wage when I relinquished my US citizenship in 1979 and I made under $20,000 in 2011. I have no family in the US because I sponsored them into Canada years ago. It was clear from my 4079 and affidavit that I had had no connection of any sort whatsoever to the US for most of my life. That consulate tried so hard to hang on to me, it was sick. It made the US look pretty sick, too.

   I was a little mouse at that consulate, but I knew I needed a CLN (because reality is reality, these 33 years had happened, I could not rewrite them). And this 2 to 3 hour interrogation, which is what intensive questioning is, that they wanted me to come back for, I knew was not proper because of those few accounts I’d read about expatriation meetings – clearly that was not something anyone was required to put up with and this little mouse wasn’t going to. I just went home — looking, my husband said, 20 years older than when I’d entered the consulate — and I typed out three pages of everything I could remember of my meeting, complete with verbatim quotes whilst they were fresh in my mind. Of course, had I known this consulate had an attitude problem, I never would have gone there. It was only after my bizarre experience that I asked around town and found out that their odd procedures and hostile attitude towards former or soon-to-be-former Americans, was apparently standard operating procedure there.

   It took me a couple of months to figure out what to do. I went to Toronto in May 2012.
   The personnel at Toronto Consulate were like the personnel at the US consulate I’d visited in 1972. I walked out of Toronto Consulate feeling good about the United States. As far as I’m concerned, if I could feel that way after living through 8 months of hell, people at the Toronto Consulate should get a medal. I actually said that to someone fairly high up in the State Dept – State Dept, btw, is absolutely not trying to keep people in US citizenship against their will and consulate number 1 has cleaned up its act.

   But overall, the loss of respect I have for that country … not just what happened to me at consulate number 1, which appears to have gone on for at least 1 and 1/2 years — but this whole crass equating citizenship with money (which I sure never learnt in a US school) and demonising people who have chosen to move and commit themself to another country (ironically how the US itself was built) and government officials knowing they’re destroying people and families, but preferring to do that because they can gain political points by so doing with a very gullible and inward-focused electorate (in the 60s and 70s, there was a healthy scepticism in the US, something which Canada and, to my knowledge, most democratic countries had then and still do)… argh .. the loss of respect I have for the US since 2011, I really don’t have words.

   Well, some words did come to me the day I got my CLN in the mail in Nov 2012. I posted,

   …. Funny thing, back when I actually relinquished my citizenship in 1979, leading up to it my thinking basically was, “You have two good countries. Choose one.” The day I actually became a Canadian and relinquished 34 years ago was not emotional for me, it was a logical progression of my life. I was neither happy nor sad to lose my US citizenship. But times have changed, specifically the US’ attitude has changed – and so getting that CLN was emotional and joyful! If was a sense of relief that I could not have imagined in my wildest dreams when I chose between “two good countries” many years ago. ….

   Back in the 70s, in my early 20s, I just felt that I wanted to have 100% participation and commitment in one country, ironically a concept I picked up growing up in the US. I did, and do, believe that is how the US became the strong country it was in the 20th century.

   And back in the 70s, knowing that so many people in the world are stuck in pretty bad countries, I actually felt privileged that I got to choose between two really good ones. A few years later I began working in refugee law and that just confirmed it. Prior to 2011, I had no idea the US had any problem with people choosing to leave it. I realise now that of course a confident country doesn`t, and the country south of here today is a scared and flailing one.

   Myself and my family suffered severe financial, physical and emotional health problems since August 2011 because I was born in the USA. There is only one country in the world that has ever hurt me and unbelievably it is the USA. Not the USA I grew up in or left, both physically and legally, before most Americans alive today were born.

   Ironically in trying to defend myself against this New US, I ended up helping to start Brock and now spend more time focused on the US politics in one week than I did in the past forty years. Which feels odd because though I’ve been mega-active in Canadian politics for 34 years, I’d only been a vacationer in the US. Then came 2011. Whilst I have had, legally and morally, no commitment or allegiance to the US for most of my life, I did think the US was a pretty good country, second best in the world, and felt fondly toward it. But then it turned on me. And why? Because I was born there.

   That post also references the following comment on the Isaac Brock Society:

   http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/01/22/the-democrats-abroad-paradox-by-deckard1138/comment-page-1/#comment-154470

   which includes (along with your analogy to the fire):

   Through ill advised legislation (which in most cases was not designed to target Americans Abroad) Congress left a lot of gasoline on the floor of a house occupied by Americans abroad. The current Democrats – (including Obama, Levin, Geithner) saw there was a lot of gas on the floor of the house of Americans Abroad. Recognizing this fact and opportunity, they then took some matches, lit a fire and torched the house of Americans Abroad leaving them to die. Again this is the current Democrat Party – not sure what part of this you don’t understand.

3. Publius left a post on another thread about the Bankers Testifying ….

   Publius says
   May 7, 2014 at 6:22 pm

   Are the politicians perhaps being so in with the bankers because they have dreams of their own offshore crackdown?
   Colombia has apparently announced, on the back of FATCA, high penalties for Colombian taxpayers with undeclared U.S. assets. These taxpayers are to declare these assets, including real estate: as income at 25% tax, if they don’t do it and are caught later the penalty is 70% of the value of the asset. Had to read this one in Spanish to make sure that google translate wasn’t playing tricks.
   http://elheraldo.co/economia/colombianos-deben-declarar-renta-por-propiedades-en-eeuu-151674

   and it caused me to respond:

   @Publius – I have copied your post and the link …. and sent to some people I know. So it now starts … the Great Raid on the US Tax Haven and Money Launderette aka The Consequences of the Birds Coming Home To Roost When Bullies Stalk the Earth.

4. Copied from Maplesandbox and Reposted here:

   Canadians: Give Your #FATCA Briefs To Finance Committee
   Posted on May 8, 2014 by Lynne Swanson

   Canadians: Make your voices heard at Finance Committee. Give the Committee your briefs!

   In preparing my own brief for testifying next week, I learned all Canadians can submit briefs to the Finance Committee–not just those of us who will testify.

   Here is what the Clerk of the Finance Committee replied to me when I asked:

   Anyone can submit a brief on Bill C-31. While there is no set date it would be best to get it into us at FINA@parl.gc.ca as soon as possible so we can have the briefs translated and distributed to the Members of the Committee before the begin Clause-by-Clause.

   Here are the government’s Guidelines for Preparing Briefs. The Clerk of the Finance Committee has advised briefs must be limited to five pages.

   I know many of you already made submissions to Finance Canada in 2012 and again when the IGA was announced. However, those submissions are not being shared with the Finance Committee or with Parliament.

   So, if you want those making the decisions to know what you have to say: Give them your briefs.

   This should be in your own words. Many of you will be able to adapt the submission you already made.

   I have two suggestions:

   1. Emphasize you are Canadian!

   2. If you support the proposed amendment, include it in your brief.

   “Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act or the Agreement, for all purposes related to the implementation of this Act and the Agreement, “US Person” and “Specified US Person” shall not include any person who is a Canadian citizen or legal permanent resident who is ordinarily resident in Canada.”

   There is no deadline for this, but clearly, the sooner the better. It may be submitted in either English or French and will be translated. If you speak both languages, you could submit in both.

   Tell them what you think. Give Finance Committee your briefs!

5. @LM – my briefs are in the laundry … I am already going Commando ….. LOL … I think I need a new one (or six).

6. @ nervousinvestor – DEFINITELY LOL!!!

7. Thanks WhiteKat. I am feeling energized for the first time as I prepare to submit a brief as well. For me personally, it is like reliving the 60s, marching against the Vietnam War, marching with Martin Luther King, fighting any injustice – it is in my DNA from my parents.

   Wishing that we could all meet at some point face to face. I continue to be so impressed with the huge effort of so many people in this struggle.

8. Pacifica and LM,

   Enjoyed meeting you both last week! Thanks for everything you’ve shared here! I finished my brief this morning and just need to tweak it a bit before sending it off. It’s fantastic to have this opportunity to be able to support Lynne’s testimony, and John Richardson’s the next day, with all of our submissions.

9. John Richardson will be testifying too? Fantastic! That means I got 4 out of 6 on my wish list.

10. Do we know for certain that John will be testifying. That was the other person I thought would be on the panel. I know he expects to testify May 14, but I didn`t want to post that until it was confirmed.

    Right now, there is not even anything on Parliament`s website about a meeting on May 14.

    If someone finds that, please post it as soon as possible. Thanks.

11. @ Blaze
    Gosh I thought that addendum to this post came from Maple Sandbox. I hope we haven’t jumped the gun with our excitement about John testifying. Wonder where this information came from? There is no FINA meeting for May 14th on the House schedule … yet.

12. John Richardson has a “Solving US Citizenship” meeting scheduled in Ottawa for May 14th beginning at 6:00PM.
    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/05/07/solving-us-citizenship-problems-ottawa-information-session/

13. Em, I`m concerned it was somehow posted here before it has even been confirmed Finance will hold a meeting on FATCA that day. Neither I nor Maple Sandbox have posted anything about John Richardson at a Finance Committee meeting or even that there will be a meeting that day because Finance has not confirmed or posted that.

    The meeting in that link is John`s information session on May 14, not a Finance Committee meeting.

    If anyone sees a confirmation from the Finance Committee, that is when we will know if there is a meeting that day or who is on it.

14. @Blaze

    I have that information directly from John and he asked that be posted.I put it in both places; here, because it is related and on the Info Session post due to the fact some Brockers (who may be coming to the Info Session) might see the Finance meeting there and decide to go to it as well.

    I am watching for the notice will post it as soon as it is up. I am not aware of who else will be on that day.

15. @ Blaze
    Tricia might know where the information in that addendum came from. I hope she’ll clarify. Meanwhile, fingers crossed, that John does get to testify — sometime. After all, New Zealand invited him to testify and by the reports they did listen … unfortunately they didn’t alter course.

16. @ Tricia
    Thanks for clarifying that and sorry for typing while you were posting.

17. Dumm question: I am little confused about the process. It was my understanding that the law has already been voted on and passed by the conservatives.
    What is the purpose of all these hearings, then?
    Sorry for my ignorance of the Canadian political system…

18. @Em
    No apologies necessary (unless you are clairvoyant LOL!).

    @dummy
    I don’t really know that either. Hopefully, the answer is contained here somewhere:

    http://www.parl.gc.ca/LEGISinfo/Faq.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1

19. The FATCA bill and C31 have NOT been voted into law.

    They passed first and second readings and are now at the Committee Stage. Amendments can be introduced at this stage.

    I think we should anticipate the Act will pass with a Con majority, but it’s not a done deal yet.

    That is why the NDP want the FATCA IGA Act removed from the omnibus budget bill–so it can be properly debated and considered.
    However, I think the amendment which Anne Frank suggested and that I put forth would resolve almost all of the issues within Canada.

20. @Blaze, I’m confused about the amendment. If Hogg suggested this before in his letter to the government, yet it was ignored, what makes us think they will listen now?

21. I don’t know if they will listen now. If people don’t want to try, then we all just toss it in and give up. If we do that, there is no need for me to testify next week, no one needs to submit any briefs and we all try to get a life again.

    However, the Finance Committee said last week FATCA doesn’t apply to Canadian citizens. If that is Parliament’s intent, that is what we should ensure they do with the amendment.

    I personally am not willing to give up yet.

    Plus, if they vote against an amendment to protect Canadian citizens, that may give us one more argument when we launch our constitutional challenge.

22. @Blaze, the more politicians we can get on the record talking about how bad this is going to be for 1 million Canadians the better for us when we do proceed with the Charter Challenge.

    We can use Flaherty’s own words to show how unfair this is to Canadians but we need as many politicians as possible to express their sympathy for our cause if we are to succeed in court.

    When we go to court we can say we tried and tried to talk sense into this government but they would not listen. We don’t want to be portrayed as greedy and litigious Americans by the Canadian media. We want them to know we did things the Canadian way but it just didn’t work so we had to go to court.

23. @Blaze, I wasn’t suggesting to give up. Sorry, if my comment sounded negative. It wasn’t meant to be. I admire you greatly for all your efforts, and would never want to discourage you, and personally I have never felt like giving up, and never will. I am just a bit ignorant as to how the whole process works….like ‘dummy’ who made a comment earlier on this thread. To be more specific, is the most we can hope for at this point in the process of passing this bill, an amendment? Is that why we are pushing for an amendment specifically at this point even though Hogg was unsuccessful in his efforts earlier to convince the Cons to limit the IGA to ‘US persons’ resident in US? Note: I am not directly these questions specifically to you, Blaze…just expressing my thoughts.

24. @Blaze, “Plus, if they vote against an amendment to protect Canadian citizens.”

    We are actually doing two things and they get to choose;

    1.) Giving them the right hand of friendship in helping them out of a hole.

    2.) Giving them rope to hang themselves politically.

    When is the next election? The next majority needs to be held to the fire for amendment of the law if it has not been tossed by then. Hence its good to get on the record comments.

25. Tentative Canadian federal election October 19, 2015.

    Remember 1984. Brian Mulroney thundered words at John Turner in a leaders’ debate. Those words changed Canadian history and resulted in the largest landslide victory for any party before or since. (Yikes! I’m quoting Brian Mulroney!) This is what we need to insist now. “You have a choice Sirs (and it is all Sirs we have seen on the Committee!)

    “You had an option, Sir. You could have said ‘I’m not going to do it. This is wrong for Canadians and I’m not going to ask them to pay the price…You had an option, Sir. You had an option to say ‘No.’ You chose to say ‘Yes’.

    “If I may say respectfully, that is not good enough for Canadians…That is an avowal of failure…You had an option, Sir. You could have done better.”