The American Citizens Abroad Global Foundation has launched its educational program with a forum/debate on the merits of Citizenship-based taxation vs. Residence-based taxation.
This is a full day event, sponsored and organized by the ACA (American Citizens Abroad), that will be held at the University of Toronto on May 2nd. Registration and Information
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‘This is the first public debate — worldwide — devoted to this important topic.’
Donation of US$50 prepaid with the reservation or C$60 cash only at the door.
Student discount – C$10 cash at the door with valid student ID
The speakers will include academic tax specialists Bernard Schneider and Michael Kirsh, who have different approaches to the taxation of US citizens abroad, with the program moderated by Toronto lawyer John Richardson.
Dr. Stephen Kish, who co-authored with Mr. Richardson a submission to the U.S. Senate Finance Committee (see below), will be the academic host.
Bernard Schneider:
The End of Taxation Without End: A New Tax Regime for U.S. Expatriates, Virginia Tax Review, Vol. 32, No. 1, 2012, http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2186076
Michael Kirsch:
Revisiting the Tax Treatment of Citizens Abroad: Reconciling Principle and Practice, October 23, 2013, Florida Tax Review, (Forthcoming), Notre Dame Legal Studies Paper No. 1457, http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2346458
Richardson/Kish:
John Richardson, Willard Yates, Stephen Kish, Request for Tax Rules Changes for U.S. Citizens Overseas: Submission to the Senate Finance Committee, January 2014, http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RichardsonYatesKishJan232014SFCSubmission.pdf
Keynote Speakers
Prof. Michael S. Kirsch, Professor of Law, Notre Dame Law School
Dr. Bernard Schneider, Teaching Fellow, Centre for Commercial Law Studies, Queen Mary University of London School of Law
Phil D.W. Hodgen, International Tax Attorney, Hodgen Law Group PC, Pasadena, CA
David Kuenzi, Certified Financial Planner,® Founder, Thun Financial Advisors, Madison, WI
Charles W. Cullen III, Certified Financial Planner, ® RBC Dominion Securities, Inc., Halifax, NS
Neil Sinclair, Chapter Chair, Amcham Canada – Ontario Region
Closing comments: Jackie Bugnion, American Citizens Abroad, Inc., Director of Tax Team
Originally published on April 23, 2014
I can’t read 100 comments, but I am very excited and happy about this meeting today. I hope it wakes people up.
Do we know how many people registered? I live too far from Toronto to make the trip, but can’t wait to read a summary of some of the people who attended.
I wish that I was able to make the trip. Once Europe wakes up to FATCA / IGA perhaps there will be an opportunity to have a Euro version of this meeting with the ACA.
Hopefully some video will be uploaded to YouTube and if that’s the case I eagerly await to watch them.
Good luck today.
This meeting came at such a hectic time in this household. In fact if it had been any other week I could have made it work. I lay awake last night trying to figure a way to jump a five a.m. train and it just wasn’t to be. I am so disappointed I could not go and so I am thrilled with the reports coming on this blog from the meeting!
Thank you everyone who attended and who have kept us up to date here. I am just now playing catch up with the comments. So much productivity and Rankin being there is a wonderful plus!
I agree with Shadow Raider re some of the submissions made to make CBT workable if the U.S. is never going to RBT *and I don’t think they ever will* Redefine “off shore account” to mean an account where you do not live and take into consideration some of the other ways to make CBT fair and acceptable given the fact the U.S. will always try to justify it. I have very little hope any pols in D.C. will do ANY of the amending or do anything to make CBT workable for expat families. I do think some push back in Canada and Europe might spur them to amend one day though. Thanks to ACA for bringing this meeting to Toronto.
Did anyone suggest that if they insist on maintaining CBT that they could save money and resources and probably collect more money by adopting the Eritrean model?
2% of your income. Efficient for both IRS and US citizen. Easy to collect. No need for FATCA, FBARs and all other What The Fs.
Oh wait,that means there wouldn’t be tons of work for lawyers and accountants. Defeats the purpose of the HIRE Act. Scrap that idea. Keep it as costly, inefficient, invasive and burdensome as possible. The American Way.
@Blaze, that is a very good question! However, how could they justify kicking out Eritrea from Canada and not the U.S. if the U.S. went to the 2 percent confiscation model. Even though it is FAR more fair and efficient than what the U.S. is doing right now maybe if they did go to the Eritrean model Canada could say “NO” or else have to justify in the media why Eritrea had to go but, the U.S. can stay.
@Atticus: They wouldn’t justify. Hypocrisy is too deeply imbedded in DNA of US Treasury and IRS. That is why US is one of the largest tax havens in the world while IRS is launching their FATCA Attack on high tax allies like Canada, UK, Sweden, France and New Zealand.
Speaking of Eritrea’s diaspora tax here’s an article (probably appeared at Brock before but I’m not sure) written by Theo Caldwell:
http://www.capitaleritrea.com/us-and-eritrea-tax-canadas-fatca-capitulation/
And take a look at the Eritrea tax form (yes that’s right — one form) here:
http://www.embassyeritrea.org/consular/PDF-docs/mehwey_gibri_2012.pdf
And here’s what one of our Brockers, Don Whitely, wrote a year ago:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/will-canadas-hard-line-on-eritreas-diaspora-tax-apply-to-the-us/article12224084/
Who won?
@Em: Fabulous find of the Eritrean income tax form. I tweeted it to US Treasury and IRS and gave it its own thread at Sandbox.
Theo Caldwell’s article was originally in the Financial Post and other publications, but I had no idea it was also published in Eritrea.
@Blaze and@Atticus”
From your comment:
They wouldn’t justify. Hypocrisy is too deeply imbedded in DNA of US Treasury and IRS
It isn’t hypocrisy alone that is imbedded in their DNA , it is criminal , miscreant and lawless.
@FuriousAC: “The only thing worse than a liar is a liar that’s also a hypocrite!” (Tennessee Williams)
“The only thing worse than a criminal is a criminal that’s also a hypocrite and a bully.” (Blaze)
Does anyone know where and when we can watch the video? I couldn’t find it on the ACA site.
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/ralphbenko/2014/04/15/london-mayor-boris-johnson-for-president-welcome-to-the-uksa-n1824497/page/full
“I still seethe. It’s not just the stupidity of the rule that gets me. It’s the arrogance. What other country insists that because you can be one of its nationals, then you must be one of its nationals?”
From London mayor Boris Johnson’s blog, as quoted in the article calgary411 cites.
U.S. airline agents barred Johnson from boarding a flight to New York with his family when they saw his US place of birth on his British passport.
@calgary411
Good spot on that article. It seems unlikely that Boris Johnson ever formally renounced or relinquished, not that one of the “elite” will have to worry about such trivial matters as FATCA or FBAR.
@Em
I would imagine it will be several days to at least a week until the video is up. Expecting that there will be some editing (out).
I would agree with Tricia. There will definitely be some editing. Unfortunately some of the best parts will be probably be edited out.
@Em,
I suspect that it will take one month or so before the video is posted.
@Tim, the editing will be done by the ACA Global Foundation (not the ACA) which owns the video. Dead time has to be edited out, but I do not want any of the speaker or audience comments removed. All comments and discussions were made with good courtesy.
Murray Rankin, the Canadian NDP Member of Parliament and National Revenue critic attended the entire conference. He mentioned his efforts in confronting the FATCA IGA enabling legislation our government wishes to impose on us and let us know that we could contact him with our thoughts. His presence at the conference was a real morale booster.
I just got back from Toronto last night after an incredible day of welcoming hospitality from the Brockers who helped organize the May 2 seminar. My thanks to all of you, with a special note to Stephen and his wife. It was a thrilling day for me!
The RBT side won the debate (of course!). A high spot was the presence of Murray Rankin who was with us *all* day. That is an important measure of how seriously he is taking this issue.
There is a lot of reading to catch up on (including all the comments on this post!) so I’ll disappear for now and get started.
Here is one of my observations from the May 2 seminar:
While he never stated this in so many words Prof. Kirsch, who argued the pro-CBT position, appeared to found his opinion primarily on the idea that CBT was some sort of “membership fee”. He seemed to feel that if you had strong feelings for the USA and felt, in some way, a relationship to the USA, that you should be willing to pay taxes to the USA. He down-played the idea that the benefits one receives from a government have anything to do with one’s tax “obligations”.
For my entire life I have had very strong emotional ties to the USA. I was born there, all my blood relatives have lived there since the days of their respective emigrations from their own native lands, most as far back as 1630. All my ancestors who lived in America at the time of the Revolutionary War were American Patriots some of whom fought and died to create the USA. I have spent my life doing serious genealogical study with regard to my heritage. My own life circumstances brought me to live in Canada, a country I have come to love as my own. Canada, with great magnanimity, has never asked me to love the land of my heritage any less. But Prof. Kirsch’s position, and, of course, that of the U.S. government, places a financial cost on this emotional attachment.
No other nation on earth (with the one exception) requires this of its native sons and daughters who choose to live, or who find themselves living, in other lands. No other nation places a dollar value on one’s natural and “God-given” right to feel a certain passion about where one comes from. I have always regarded such passion as priceless.
@MuzzledNoMore
So paying taxes is what good citizens do to prove their loyalty to country? If citizenship is contingent on paying taxes, then the US should allow the non-payment of taxes as an expatriating act, without penalty!
Did anyone suggest to Professor Kirsch. If US must do CBT why don’t you just adopt Eritrean model.
One simple form. 2%. Send the check
(I used American spelling instead of cheque to ensure it is understood by US Treasury.).
For those who haven’t had a look at the Eritrean CBT tax form it appears at MapleSandbox.ca: http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/how-eritrea-does-cbt-no-fatca-fbar/
http://www.embassyeritrea.org/consular/PDF-docs/mehwey_gibri_2012.pdf
@Blaze
Although I like to use the term “diaspora tax” over “citizenship based taxation” for the emotions it elicits, the tax the Eritrean government levies against its non-residents is more of a true diaspora tax, in that it’s levied only on its diaspora. The issue with the US’s CBT is that the same rules apply to to everyone – resident and non- resident (with some work-arounds like the FEIE, tax credits, and other treaty carve-outs) and takes nothing else under consideration, such as the fact that we get virtually nothing in return.
I can see also see how proponents of CBT would think that a one-size-fits-all is the epitome of “fairness”, even though there’s no regard for the the fact that it makes it impossible to thrive as US citizens outside the US. I wonder how Americans would react to the prospect of levying something that’s more like a membership fee? Would they find it repugnant since so many think that we don’t end up paying taxes anyway because of tax credits.
I detest the idea of paying any kind of tribute, 2% or the cockamamie scheme the US has going on.