My advice I would get moving on submissions this weekend. I did talk to the committee clerk who said there is no formal deadline but the sooner the better will be better for them.
2. Subject-matter of Bill C-31, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 11, 2014 and other measures. Part 5 (Clauses 99 to 101)(FATCA)
Witnesses
Department of Finance Canada
– Brian Ernewein, General Director, Tax Policy Branch
– Kevin Shoom, Senior Chief, International Taxation and Special Projects
– Ted Cook, Senior Legislative Chief, Tax Legislation
@usxcanada
I find the following quote from the citation for the Campobello story interesting: “Member of Parliament John Williamson is reported to say that the Canadian government would not support the desire of the IRS to compel Canadian banks to report client funds to the United States.”
It does not seem to take long in politics before good people will go against what they know is right in order to toe the party line. I sent “Questions For My MP” to Mr Williamson (as well as Mr Armstrong) and here is the reply I received:
Dear (Canadian Cop),
Thank you for your e-mail and comments about U.S. government taxation policy, specifically the Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR) and the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA). As you can understand, this law was passed in Washington by the Obama Administration. I don’t like it and the agreement in place will protect dual-nationals. I will let Mr. Armstrong reply to your specific questions.
The Government of Canada will continue to express its strong concerns relating to FATCA with the U.S. government and advocate on behalf of Canadians on these issues.
All that said, even though many wouldn’t end up owing to the U.S. government after having filed and paid the taxes in Canada, it is the fact that it is U.S. law. Our Parliament cannot overturn this. I appreciate that the time and expense required to file returns can be overwhelming, at the end of the day, the decision to file lies with the individual.
Thank you for communicating your concerns about U.S. taxation policy.
Sincerely,
John
@Canadian Cop ” I don’t like it and the agreement in place will protect dual-nationals. ”
No it does not, that is an absurd statement. These politicians need to be asked how.
Someone needs to write;
——-
Dear John;
Thank you for your reply dated _______. For the record, I am a Canadian Citizen resident in Canada and I do not consider myself anything other than Canadian. It is unfortunate that a foreign power specifically the United States happens to consider me a citizen of that country. I understand that there are many other nations including certain former communist countries and Islamic countries that consider Canadian Citizens to be citizens of those other countries.
But I write to you as a fellow Canadian, as that is what I am. I have no allegience to any country other than Canada be that Zambia, France or Timbuktu.
You state that the IGA protects “dual nationals.”
Firstly, as a Canadian and a sworn Officer of the _________, I resent and consider racist being referred to someone as dual. My loyalty is solely and absolutely to Canada. Calling or referring to anyone as “dual” implies that they are not fully loyal.
You state that the agreement will “protect” individuals like me who are considered citizens of a foreign power (USA).
What is that protection? How is the Government of Canada protecting myself as a loyal Canadian Citizen from the over reach of a foreign power be that the USA, Russia or China or any other foreign power.
Respectfully,
Getting any kind of honest answer is nearly impossible from our elected officials. In my lifetime so far, I have never been into a challenge of what is right and what is wrong like this. I am learning of lies, two faced people and politically motivated sacrifices of good people. It seems the only enforceable laws are your own. Nobody seems to want to stand up for the little guy/gal here. If this was a different group of minorities being attacked this way, believe me, without a doubt, there would have been bloodshed long ago. I know my Elected MP is a liar and a scoundrel. I never thought these “elected” people would turn their backs on what is lawfully right. I never thought Canada would simply “dump” good Canadians the way they are here. How in the world can we get these liars in a public place, on public TV and radio stations and MAKE them answer our questions? This might be the only way to show them for what they are.
@Native Canadian, the gloves need to start coming off.
Firstly, it needs to be made known that calling a Canadian Citizen in Canada anything other than Canadian is flat out racist.
In most cases with Brockers, calling you “Dual” is racist and insulting, it questions your loyalty to Canada and HM QE II. EVERYTIME the media calls someone dual or Canadian/American the media and politicians need to be called what they are RACISTS and BIGOTS.
Next the politicians need to be asked, we need to demand point blank how they are going to protect you as Canadian Citizens.
We do not give a damn that the US passed some law.
We do not give a damn that the US has CBT, RBT or NBT.
What we care about is how we are viewed as Canadian Citizens in Canada.
Calling us Dual or making us hyphenated is questioning our loyalty and we are not going to take it any more!!
(Note that I am not Canadian but you get the point. Though I do often now wear a Maple Leaf lapel pin. 😉 )
@George. I agree 100%. For all the years of her life that she can remember, my wife has lived in Canada. She was born to Canadian mother. She grew up singing the Canadian national anthem since her first school day. She would not know George Washington from George of the jungle and doesn’t care. She knows her Canadian history only. The idea of ANY Canadian government representative calling her a Dual is RACIST. We are Canadians. It will be over my dead body to sign Fbars or anything American. USA’s taxes aer theirs. We are PURE Canadian here. Now, to all Canadian government officials…. protect Canadians or be Racist. We aera minority group here and need help. The Government needs to be EXPOSED for what they are doing to Minority groups in Canada. This message needs to get out. I agree, time for the gloves to come off. What do people do when we are being swindled and the normal channels don’t work????
@NativeCanadian
*minority group*
There are more Americans then u think in Canada since the borders to the 2 Separate countries are so close… No one thought anything about it. All these so called politicians who are suppose to represent our best interest need to remember… we have a long memory… The age group most hit by this is the over +40… coming up to retirement or retired… We do what is being done now… we protest any way we can or lawsuits…getting the message out to as many people we can… to ensure our rights as Citizens of Canada… not dual or whatever buzz words they use. I never thought I would see my gov’t toss us under the bus then hide this in a thick bill they thought no one would see with no discussion…. its dirty… If we don’t stop this dirty game they are playing… what other things will be done to violate our rights without us knowing because they slip it into a bill… What if they decide… to hand over info about citizens to their birth country so the birth country can do whatever they want with the info? Or decide to build some stupid thing & we are require to empty our savings to pay for it… it can go on & on… it needs to be stopped now…
I’ve posted this now in more than one thread here, but those making submissions might want to read this to add ammunition to their arguments against FATCA – and how it will negatively impact Canada, Canadian citizens and residents, AND the Canadian mutual fund industry – even with an IGA. Read the entire article – has many useful arguments – and specifically references Canada, Canadian mutual funds, and FATCA. The fulltext is available at the PDF below:
http://fordhamilj.org/articles/getting-caught-between-the-borders-the-proposed-exemption-of-the-canadian-mutual-fund-from-the-passive-foreign-investment-company-rules/
http://fordhamilj.org/files/2014/04/Ray_FILJ_GettingCaught.pdf
Stephanie Ray, Comment, Getting Caught Between the Borders: The Proposed Exemption of the Canadian Mutual Fund from the Passive Foreign Investment Company Rules, 37 Fordham Int’l L.J. 823 (2014)
The letter to Canadian Cop looks a whole lot like talking points have been provided to government MP’s. They likely believe what they say to be true – our job is to persuade them otherwise.
What all MP’s need to understand is:
– no foreign government has any right, under international law or Canadian law to tax, attempt to tax or threaten to tax any Canadian or permanent resident of Canada in respect of their earnings in Canada. Period. That statement can be verified with any competent lawyer with knowledge of international law and particularly international tax law. They can pass whatever laws suit their twisted fancy at home and seek to enforce them behind their own borders – they have no right and we have no interest in enforcing them outside their borders. We can’t tell North Korea what to do with its own citizens – or those it deems their citizens – when they are under its jurisdiction. We can’t tell the United States either, although in both cases we can express our opinions strongly through diplomatic channels. This is a REALLY key point because I frankly think the Finance seems rather defeatist in its view that “hey, it’s their law, we can’t do anything about it”. It IS their law, but it has no more validity than North Korean law beyond their borders and they bloody well know it. If we don’t breathe life into it here, it is a nothing.
– this is not a case of a couple of people caught as unfortunate collateral damage – there are hundreds of thousands of Canadians who are threatened quite distinctly by laws of a country that they do not consider to be theirs with a nationality they neither chose nor, for the most part, have any desire to retain. Even renunciation is not an option for a great number since the act of doing so would expose them to exit taxes and potentially ruinous demands for fines and penalties for never having been “in” the US system in their lives (and fewer than 5% of potential “US Persons” are “in” the system according to the IRS data).
– the threat to these people goes far beyond the “expense and bother” of filling out a couple of forms. The US system involves a massive invasion of privacy not only of affected individuals with US ancestry or birth but also their business associates, spouses and children whose privacy is involuntarily (and without notice) invaded by the transmission of their private financial data abroad beyond any protection of Canadian law. Many Canadians legitimately fear for their jobs or livelihoods being placed at risk should Canada reveal their ancestry to the US government as their business associates may have no knowledge that their Canadian partner or senior employee is also claimed as a citizen by the United States and, as a result, their businesses may unwittingly become subject to onerous filing obligations to the United States. – The threat to the vast majority affected is not only the taxes which the US may claim is owing – even the US admits this to be a trivial sum in the aggregate – the threat is the massive and disproportionate penalties for failure to file over a life time by people who had no idea that the US made such extravagant demands upon them. The non-filing penalties for FBAR forms alone can amount to several hundred times the net worth of the wealthiest individual since the penalties can be 50% of the highest balance in any unreported account per year without limit (most have never filed anything in their lives).
– Were the 1 million affected Canadians actually to “come into compliance” with the US, the cost to Canada could literally be in the hundreds of billions of possible fines and penalties since the entire net worth of every affected Canadian would be at risk due to the potential magnitude of the fines and penalties the US has the discretion to levy if it so chooses. Even if Canada provided no aid in the collection of these fines and penalties, this is an intolerable threat for Canada to assist another country in making and an intolerable risk to Canada’s wealth that any portion of it should be at risk of being transferred to a foreign country in that fashion.
– the information Canada might be sending to the US in this fashion could potentially be used in future to threaten to detain and arrest innocent Canadians transiting through the United States or vacationing there unless such fines and penalties are paid. Again, while Canada can’t control what other countries do to dual citizens travelling abroad to a country that claims them as a citizen, it certainly can control what assistance it provides those countries and Canada has no obligation to assist in this fashion.
– the root of the problem is of course the perverse US insistence upon taxing those permanent non-residents whom it claims as citizens under its own rules. No other country save Eritrea does so and no principle of international law obliges Canada to assist in furthering this objective of one country at variance with Canadian public policy and public international law. The only solution is to exclude Canadian citizens and permanent residents from the operation of this law in Canada.
– whatever official has told you that dual citizens are protected under the Agreement is misinformed. There is no protection whatsoever for dual citizens (who – while in Canada and under Canadian jurisdiction are, as a matter of international and Canadian law ONLY Canadian citizens) in the Agreement. The tax treaty does not permit the collection of taxes from such “dual citizens” by Canada on behalf of the United States, but the Bill will nevertheless provide for the violation of their privacy and the transmission of their financial data to a the United States against their wishes regardless.
Best of luck Canadian Cop. I do think you should attempt to get something along these lines back to them and we should all be sure that ALL of our MP’s understand these points. Finance clearly does not.
Appreciate your very good comments here and on other threads @Anne Frank.
Another point that Canadian MPs appear not to have considered is that it is very likely that even just under the FBAR rules, there are Canadians who in their workplaces during the official performance of their duties – some very highly placed – there will be those who under the US Bank Secrecy Act FBAR laws will have signatory or co-signatory powers over their employer’s Canadian accounts – which will be deemed ‘foreign’ reportable accts in US eyes wherever a deemed US taxable person has certain powers in relationship to those ‘foreign’ non-personal accts. Or in relationship to the accounts of others in their care if they are trustees for accounts that they have a fiduciary duty to protect and to manage (ex. for those deemed incompetent, handling Canadian estates, managing assets on behalf of others, etc.). Some of those deemed to be UStaxablePersons may be federal or provincial or municipal government employees – and access to accounts will be part of their formal employment duties. They will either have to choose not to report those non-personal accounts on their FBARs where they have co/signatory powers if they are attempting to become compliant, or to try to obtain official permission to disclose the accounts belonging to Canadian employers and entities and individuals who are not USPs and who have no obligation to the US – or to do so without permission, thus abridging their fiduciary duty and duty of care to the actual acct holders/owners. This huge problem has never been acknowledged. As I have written before, it is highly unlikely that any Canadian employer, government entity, estate, non-profit, charity, voluntary organization, etc. will give those who have the FBAR burden a green light to report on their Canadian accounts in order for an individual who is not the owner of the accts to satisfy the IRS and Treasury. Thus, those in this reporting but non-ownership position are either forced not to file FBARs, or to file incomplete ones (leaving off the non-owned non-personal accts), or to report these non-personal non-owned accts on their FBAR, or not to take jobs in which they would have co/signatory powers over other people’s/entities’/organizations’ accts.
This situation can include those who are merely voluntary Board members, or Treasurers or fundraisers in community/charitable/non-profit/professional organizations (small or large) where they can be co-signatories on accts, as well as those formally employed to look after accts which belong to an employer or other people.
This is an absurd situation which MPs and the federal government must be forced to confront.
@Anne Frank and @Canadian Cop:
Mightily appreciate both submissions and multiple comments that are of invaluable aid to those of us who simply do not know what to do.
All communication with our mps have had the same result as others here have had.
The only bright spot I have seen for a very long time is Anne Franks submission for an amendment.
I fear those who are making these decisions in Parliament neither really know nor do they care about us or the country. For this invasion by the US via FATCA (and the illegal machinations of the Treasury Dept the government of the day seems to think is qualified to make deals with foreign sovereign nations which they are not) will end any sovereignty Canada claims or aspires to in future. This is the equivalent of Putin invading The North which Harper has stated is ” Canadian sovereign ground” and is prepared to defend it. While his eyes search the skies there the evil is poised at the 49th parallel to invade every aspect of life in Canada and that invasion will completely destroy the country from within. As pointed out here with many and several posts to the consequences of the insidiousness of FATCA and how inadequate this IGA agreed to really is we here are the watchers on the wall crying out warning of an invasion on all sides of the fort in overwhelming numbers to destroy us.
Save for a few words inserted in the IGA and something akin to a backbone by those entrusted to this task of protecting Canada this country is lost.
@FuriousAC – all is not lost for Canada. The supreme court has struck down move after move by PM Harper in his numerous attempts to dismantle our democracy and the rule of law. We will also prevail in our Charter challenge against this assault on Canadian sovereignty and against Canadians. We will need to get the word out and amass the funds to mount this challenge, and that’s where all Brockers and Sandboxers come in. Together we WILL prevail. Just remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Do not lose hope. We are on the side of righteousness.
@GwEvil:
Thank you for the encouragement, through my tears.
Does this feel like salt in the wounds to anyone else?
http://www.johnweston.ca/?p=6213
@ bubblebustin
Salt in the wounds? I’m not sure about that but it sure is weird for someone who is “thrilled” about Canada’s capitulation to FATCA to be posting that. What’s his game anyway?
I don’t know what his game is Em. Maybe he would like us to remember Flaherty more favourably, and that he really didn’t have a choice to do what he did. Sorry, but Mr Flaherty’s life ended on the wrong side of history on this matter and unless he is somehow vindicated along the way, that’s what 1m Canadians and their families will remember him for.
@GwEvil, good point. I wonder if burying the FATCA capitulation into a budget bill with no chance allowed for debate, does this violate any law, whether charter or parliamentary procedure? Also the first reading vote for the budget bill April 8 was 100% Conservatives for, and 100% Green, Liberal, Bloc, NDP against. This is worse than the political polarization in the USA.
@George and @Anne Frank
I worked a night shift last night and a day shift today so I have been pressed for time. I tried to combine your suggestions (while watching the “Northern Uprising” on TV – go Raps!). Following is what I sent:
Dear Mr Williamson;
Thank you for your reply dated 2014-04-10. I would like to preface my reply by stating that I have always held you in high regard and was very pleased when you were elected to represent New Brunswick Southwest. While I do not currently reside there, Campobello Island will always be “home” to me. You represent a large contingent of people who will be affected by FATCA and subsequently FBAR (once the CRA exposes Canadian banking records to the IRS). I believe you have an excellent pedigree and you have shown a willingness in the past to stand for what you believe, even if it is at odds with the Conservative Party stance.
I believe you when you say that you do not like this US government taxation policy. It is a vast overreach by a bloated government, the type of overreach that should rile the former head of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and be anathema to any true conservative.
You ended your response by stating, “Thank you for communicating your concerns about U.S. taxation policy.” I was not expressing concerns about U.S. taxation policy. They can pass whatever laws suit their twisted fancy at home and seek to enforce them behind their own borders. However, they have no right and the Canadian government should have no interest in enforcing them outside the U.S. border. No foreign government has any right, under international law or Canadian law to tax, attempt to tax or threaten to tax any Canadian or permanent resident of Canada in respect of their earnings in Canada. That statement can be verified with any competent lawyer with knowledge of international law and particularly international tax law.
You also state that, “it is the fact that it is U.S. law. Our Parliament cannot overturn this.” You are allowing the U.S. to define what constitutes a “U.S. person for taxation purposes”. Should the U.S. deem anyone who has spent a weekend in Bangor shopping a “U.S. person”, we cannot overturn that either. The point is that it is their law, but it has no validity beyond their borders without Canadian complicity. If the Canadian government does not breathe life into it here, it is nothing.
You state that the IGA protects “dual nationals.” There is no protection whatsoever for dual citizens (who – while in Canada and under Canadian jurisdiction are, as a matter of international and Canadian law ONLY Canadian citizens) in the Agreement. The tax treaty does not permit the collection of taxes from such “dual citizens” by Canada on behalf of the United States, but the Bill will nevertheless provide for the violation of their privacy and the transmission of their financial data to the United States against their wishes. My mother still lives on Campobello, necessitating travel through the U.S. to visit her for ten months of the year. Any information provided to the U.S. by Canada could potentially be used in the future to threaten, detain or arrest me for attempting to visit my mother. Canada has no obligation to assist the U.S. in this fashion.
As you are aware, renunciation is not an option due to the draconian penalties the IRS would impose. Becoming “U.S. tax compliant” would drain the financial resources of 1,000,000 +/- Canadians. The cost to the Canadian economy could be hundreds of billions of dollars.
It is unfortunate that a foreign power, specifically the United States, happens to consider me a citizen of that country. The fact of the matter is that I am a Canadian citizen resident in Canada. After 32 years enforcing the law in Canada, I find it inconceivable that a Conservative government would sacrifice my constitutionally protected rights in obeisance to what can only be described as a hostile foreign government. Based on your pedigree, I believe you feel the same way. I trust you will do all in your power to right this wrong being foisted on Canada hidden away in an omnibus bill subject to a confidence vote.
Respectfully
(Canadian Cop)
Pacifica and Canadian Cop –
If you have a half decent citation (“something about Campobello from two or three years ago” not so good) and really want the complete text of an article, there are legitimate ways to get it. Ways that respect copyright law. For starters, ask at your local library.
@ Canadian Cop,
Great letter! Hit’s the nail on the head and demolishes the talking point, “Thank you for communicating your concerns about U.S. taxation policy.”
If you have not done so already, suggest send to the Senate Finance Committee.
Chair of Committee Senator Joseph Day is from New Brunswick
cc: Clerk of committee
Senate Committee on National Finance
The Senate of Canada
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A4
Senator Joseph Day, Chair of Senate National Finance Committee
joseph.day@sen.parl.gc.ca
Clerk: Jodi Turner 613 990 4995
email: nffn@sen.parl.gc.ca
Assistant: Louise Martel 613 990 5285
General Information: 613 990 0088 or 1-800-267-7362
Fax: 613 947 2104
Maybe the individual Senate NFC members as well.
Members of Senate National Finance Committee:
joseph.day@sen.parl.gc.ca;
joanne.buth@sen.parl.gc.ca;
nicole.eaton@sen.parl.gc.ca;
percy.mockler@sen.parl.gc.ca;
larry.smith@sen.parl.gc.ca;
catherine.callbeck@sen.parl.gc.ca;
irving.gerstein@sen.parl.gc.ca;
asha.seth@sen.parl.gc.ca;
diane.bellemare@sen.parl.gc.ca;
maria.chaput@sen.parl.gc.ca;
celine.hervieux-payette@sen.parl.gc.ca
@Canadian Cop, you hit the nail squarely.
@ALL this is the model we need to take going forward. 1.) I am a Canadian Citizen, period. Stop this nonsense about dual, its insulting. 2.) We do not care about US Law, N. Korea Law or Katmandu Law,
For all writing letters. This is from another thread (Eric) and Hong Kong has drafted an information sharing agreement with the USA. Take the time to read this to see what real negotiating is like.
This is not an IGA, I assume. But it lays the ground work. They did NOT simply accept a boiler plate agreement.
There are ample statements in this agreement that can be thrown back at our own week knee politicians.
—
The HK–U.S. TIEA order was gazetted last Friday, to come into operation on 20 June 2014.
http://www.gld.gov.hk/egazette/english/gazette/pdf.php?extra=0&year=2014&month=04&day=25&vol=18&no=17&gn=&type=2&id=54
It’s on the Legislative Council agenda for this Wednesday
http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr13-14/english/counmtg/agenda/cm20140430.htm
@Wondering and @Calgary411
I just forwarded the John Williamson email to all the names you provided on Senate Committee on National Finance. I put the following introduction, but did not tweak the email itself due to time constraints:
To: Senate Committee on National Finance
Please consider the following submission in relation to Omnibus Bill C-31. It is a copy of an email forwarded to John Williamson as part of an exchange in relation to FATCA. Thank you for giving sober second thought to this serious assault on Canadian sovereignty hidden away in an omnibus bill. Canada should not submit to extortionist U.S. practices and should have the protection of legal Canadian permanent residents and citizens as its top priority.
Thank you.
Canadian Cop, yours will be a strong and compelling submission. Thanks for fitting it into your tight schedule. We all appreciate your contributions here and now your submission. Mine finally went in to day as well.
Done.