From Life Behind the IRon Drape, a blog by Mark Hubbard which critiques New Zealand’s IRD (Inland Revenue Department):
FATCA: The (NZ) Officials’ Report – A Crime That Deserves a Revolution
Here is an excerpt from this powerful evisceration of New Zealand’s new tax policy report heralding that country’s own IGA with the US:
Yesterday IRD Tax Policy published a 310 page document, part of which was the officials’ response to the IGA between NZ and the US, and FATCA, and the submissions made against both by the public. That report becomes a good object lesson to all submitters of what a whitewash such exercises are, and what a sham our statist captured democratic processes have become. The report proper started at page 112 of the document: it is sadly unsurprising the first 111 pages dealt with what you might have thought was such a simple thing as how employee allowances are to be dealt with (such is the complexity of our taxing legislation). Although I could only make it to page 117 before my eyes were so blurred with tears of fury, and I had no interest in reading on, even in these five pages, look at what this report says about our society, and our world, in 2014.
New Zealand tax officials have just confessed, quite casually, to the creation of the full, one-world police surveillance state under the auspices, sorry, the outright bullying, of our US masters.
@WK – Point taken.
Couldn’t agree more re: the charter challenge. My pen is poised to write cheque(s) because it seems like this is our last and hopefully most effective kick at the FATCA can of worms. (At least it is money being spent in Canada.) I wish we could muster an assault on CBT too but Americans won’t listen to Canadians or Kiwis or anyone else “whining” about what they believe to be a most exceptional system. I know we will do our best to enhance the challenge with PR and I hope we can maintain our energy throughout the long and uncertain period ahead of us. I know my energy rises and falls and I’m going to apologize in advance for that.
@WhiteKat – I agree some ex-pats may choose to be compliant, but the truth of the matter is 95% of US citizens abroad do not feel the need, the morality, or it is the US’ right to force them to become compliant.
If an referendum was held among US citizens abroad, I suspect it would be 95% against FATCA.
All I know is on 1 July 2014, not only ex-pats loose their financial freedom across the world so do over 300M Homelanders. The only difference is they don’t know it.
Ironically our fight helps the very Homelanders who have thrown all US ex-pats under the proverbial bus. Isn’t that a kicker?
@Don re: “All I know is on 1 July 2014, not only ex-pats loose their financial freedom across the world so do over 300M Homelanders. The only difference is they don’t know it. ”
Yup. So do people everywhere.
Let’s put the passport forging stuff to bed. Banks aren’t asking for passports anyway!
I keep feeling a need to remind people to retain perspective. Barring the handful of people who MAY have opened a bank account with a passport instead of a driver’s license or similar piece of id, your bank neither knows nor cares about your nationality if you are a Canadian resident with a valid SIN card. I am positive that they would rather almost anything else then hear you say “Oh, by the way, does it matter that I was born int he US 50 years ago?” Their policy is “don’t ask, don’t tell”. FATCA is going to change that – a little, and only for new accounts. Judging by the CRA guidelines, the change will be not much more than asking you to self certify that you are not a US citizen. Banks don’t assume you are a US Person and will take your word for it that you are not. If you have legitimately expatriated, with or without a CLN, you can put your hand on your heart and say “I am not a US citizen”. They won’t ask whether you used to be and trust me, they DON’T WANT YOU TO TELL THEM! Sign away. You are being honest and have every right to certify to a Canadian bank that you are not a US citizen because you are not. If you have not expatriated by acquiring Canadian nationality, joining the Canadian army or smoking crack and becoming Mayor of Toronto, there are plenty of resources on this board to help you get that job done by July 1 although time is getting a bit short I guess.
US law does not apply in Canada and you are breaching no law in not complying with it as to filing of FBAR’s, tax returns etc. There is no need to take on a Jesse James mentality and start breaching Canadian law just because the US is gone a little off its rocker. There are plenty of laws that don’t apply in Canada. Heck, with my haircut I am probably breaching laws in North Korea right now. Luckily, they don’t apply here. Neither do American ones.
I guess you are ALL criminals. You need to go and turn yourself in. That would solve all of the arguments here. Our government did no wrong, they just made sacrifices and you are it. No point in fighting this any more…… That is the only LEGAL thing left to do.
@Anne Frank – I don’t know where you’re living, but indeed in Europe banks do often require passports or national identity cards. It’s different in Canada and the US.
For the UK they’ll ask for utility bills, credit cards, council tax or some other documentation to relate you to residency or a certain address.
However it’s not to say that there hasn’t been an industry already producing the above as well. That’s already happening in the UK.
That’s what I mean the documents are the weak link in FATCA as it stands.
In Europe, if you’re moving from one country to another and having changed your second passport’s place of birth and have no other record in the new country it’s going to be as task to ‘connect the dots’ for the USG. The EU doesn’t work like the US or Canada.
It’s all work in progress – we’ll see what happens.
@Anne Frank
Double and triple dittos on everything you wrote above.
In Canada its don’t ask, don’t tell.
If they ask you if you are a US Citizen, give them the honest answer which for many is NO. If you have a US Passport, vote, and everything else, then answer YES. A CLN is NOT a requirement in the IGA if you get to that stage anyway.
Under the CRA, if you give them documentation that says you were born in New York, New York, that is an AMBIGUOUS place of birth. Its unambiguous if it says, New York, New York, USA.
Be happy a drivers license does not show place of birth. Be happy you can get a passport without place of birth.
But again if you have a valid US Passport and accept all the trappings of US Citizenship then you need to be honest about that OR get out and renounce or relinquish ASAP.
I’ve been practicing showing my Canadian passport opened to the relevant page while holding it in an iron grip with my thumb covering that US birthplace. They won’t get that little book out of my hand. This helps with my golf swing as well!
@NativeCanadian. “I guess you are ALL criminals. You need to go and turn yourself in. ”
What laws have been broken? Saudi Arabian driving laws?
We’re getting a taste for what it’s like to live life under the Taliban. Remember that brave Pakistani girl who dared to speak against the Taliban? We Canadians dare to speak against the American government and their evil tax system where taxation has no relationship to services received.
@WhiteKat, “Those US persons who have decided NOT to comply are being treated like criminals by lawyers, bankers, compliance condors, homeland Americans, fellow citizens, the US government; and even our own governments through their acquiescence act as though they agree we are such.”
Let me give you part of my history as it relates to the above in a round about manner.
During the Cold War, because of parentage I was considered a citizen of a certain communist country.
I no doubt broke many laws that applied to citizens of the country and had I stepped foot in that country during that era could have been put on trial for treason because of my job description.
Did I care? No.
Did I loose sleep over it? No.
That country said I was a citizen under their law, my reply no. They would have given me a passport too!
Do you consider yourself a US Person?
If a person considers themselve a US Person and accept the benefits they better damn well comply with US Law.
But if you relinquished regardless of CLN, this is largely academic. But just as I determined it would be wise to never visit that communist country, there may be a price to pay in never visiting the USA.
@George. You have broken AMERICAN laws which are enforced in Canada. When this is signed into power, Canada considers you all tax cheats and will aid the USA in prosecuting you all. This is the message we have… Do you think you have protection when they come for you?
We can look at what is “legal” and what the “jury” would think. When the farmers drove their tractors down the 401 in protest of the government, they did something ILLEGAL. They wanted to gain attention and support to their plight. The “jury” they were looking for was the population of Canada. Even though they broke the law, nobody was charged. The “Jury” on Fatca needs to be the population of Canada as well. The fight now is between the secret of Fatca and the jury. So, what is legal?
@Native Canadian. I am not in Canada, though my heart surely is. That all aside.
At one point in my life I was and considered myself a US Citizen. In accordance with US Code, I relinquished that citizenship very clearly.
I am no more a US Citizen today than I am/was a citizen of a certain communist country in the 1980s that did in fact consider me a citizen because of parentage, said communist country which would have likely tried me for treason had I stepped foot on their soil. I will not travel to that country today for fears.
I have already traveled the road of having clinging nationality that I disputed.
The American law that you reference is neither enforced in Canada nor in my home country, the country of my citizenship.
Now they have passed rules which are discriminatory and which complicate things but I can continue my life while supporting legal challenges……in Canada which will have spillover effect.
So lets look ten years down the road.
Would a jury of my peers find me to be a so called US Person or would they find me to fellow citizen? International law is very clear on that point and I am very confident that a court where I live would find me not to be a US Citizen. I think Canadian Courts would determine the same for many Canadians.
The evolution that I think we shall see is the destruction of the quasi recognition of dual/multi nationality. That will in turn render FATCA moot.
EM, “My pen is poised to write cheque(s) because it seems like this is our last and hopefully most effective kick at the FATCA can of worms. (At least it is money being spent in Canada.) I wish we could muster an assault on CBT too but Americans won’t listen to Canadians or Kiwis or anyone else “whining” about what they believe to be a most exceptional system.”
I am also ready to send more money to the charter challenge. I am ready to up my prior contribution by a factor of ten. Blaze et al, take note….
I know what you are saying about CBT and homelanders but there is another path. We need to get back to the old rules about citizenship before the US Courts interfered. Homelanders would like to throw us all out!! They do not want us, we do not want to belong. US Law needs to be changed so they can get rid of the emigrants and destroy the underlying citizenship. If the old rules were still on the books, there would be no FATCA problem because there would be few people with clinging nationality!! All the border babies would have lost their US Citizenship simply by voting!
@George… You are correct. You are NOT a US person. My wife is a Canadian but was born in the US. The only laws being broken are human rights laws. The problem we all have is that you would be considered a “fugitive” from the US if you “hide out” in Canada. I know those are strong words, but they do fit the situation. My wife would be happy to Never set foot in the US again. Luckily for her, there are no family ties there. for a lot of people in this, they have family there. From what we see here, penalties and fines are given to people “guilty” of a crime. Ignorance of the “law” does not seem to be any kind of an excuse. So if no laws were broken, why the fines and penalties? doesn’t completely make sense to me. I’ve seen people do illegal things to prove they were not guilty of breaking any laws. Ironic? yes, but what do people do when those who they were told would protect them, turn their backs and make them a sacrifice? Terrible place to be.
@NativeCanadian, we agree.
I benefit from the clarity of the 1980s when the USG spelled out for me because of my job what a certain communist country would likely do to me if I stepped foot in their territory or one of many other countries in their sphere of influence. It was spelled out to me by the USG that I would likely be placed on trial as a Citizen of that country for treason and there was nothing the USG could do to help.
Roles now have changed and I left the US both physically and in spirit.
I think the important thing is that all Canadian Citizens in Canada be treated EQUALLY. Ditto French in France, Itlalians in Italy and on and on…
Saudi law concerning Canadian women driving in Canada has as much bearing as any US law imposed in Canada on a Canadian.
Now overseas US permanent residents, hate to say it but they are likely screwed. Thats the likely sacrificial lamb.
But will these sacrificial lambs be enough to satisfy the FATCA gods, or will they insist on take our first born too?
@concerned. …….. yawn. Yes Mommy. You do not speak for me in the face of persecution. You’re lucky they don’t make a movie called Parliament Down. There are a million of us in Canada who no longer respect the Canadian government or its laws. Since Harper betrayed this country my opinion is that Canada stands for nothing and is illegitimate so please go away with that nonsense. Where I live in BC tens of thousands of Chinese are driving with faked Chinese drivers licences and that is a serious direct to my life everyday.
USPersonForeigner –
Re: Bank teller asks “what is purpose” or “are you going on vacation” or …
Standard routine is shift the frame. Ask: “Is this a script that you’re trained to follow?” Stops ’em dead. Makes ’em nervous. They can’t / won’t admit it. Then they keep their yap shut and do the business.
Don, George, Anne Frank et al.
I asked my bank rep last week about my US Indicia (I am a former US citizen and opened my bank account in Toronto but transferred it to Vancouver). This is his reply. I posted this on another thread at IBS. He says:
“We usually look at client’s (1) current address, (2) residence tax code and (3) identification to determine if we were meeting with a resident of Canada or a resident of a foreign country.”
I am afraid that he does not know the IRS will pursue US persons to their grave no matter where they live in the world. I am not a resident of a foreign country, I live in and pay taxes to Canada. I will have to get back to him next week.
I’ve never seen such paranoia in my life here. Just get out of the banks. Why is anyone even debating this???I did and told them I’m moving to a credit union because I don’t like all the stories about crooked banks in the news and I want to support local business.
They don’t care. The Credit Unions I now deal with think the USA stinks and are in no mood to rat out anybody but even if they do I like the Credit Unions better as they are not transnational and not at all part of the problem.
Some people here are simply wimping out. Sorry, you cannot win any battles if you don’t fight them. You must be in it to win it. You can’t expect to act like Christians in 1st century Rome. Remember this: χαῖρε, αὐτοκράτορ· οἱ ἀπολούμενοί σε ἀσπαζόμεθα
You can run and hide like criminals and worry about what others may think about what you are doing with your hard earned money but it is your RIGHT to live as free Canadian men and women and do whatever you want with your money, buy what you want, invest where you want and take your money and fight them preemptively if you think they will take some of your money. People here who have paid fines or let themselves be intimidated are doomed to regret their existence and live in shame. To all those ‘plants’ here telling people to obey bullshit laws please take a hike and sell your Girl Guide cookies to real Canadians who are involved in this society and have respect for your hypocritical immoral laws. We are no longer full fledged Canadians, having now been stripped of our status as such, and certainly no longer Americans by any stretch. In my own perspective those who are holding on to US connections are needing to break all connections no matter how painful. Those who come here and tell us that we need to live by some stupid unenforceable laws are victimizing people here. ALL’S FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR. Don’t forget it. There are two things for sure they say, death and taxes. Give me LIBERTY and fairness in taxes or give me death. I am not afraid nor should anyone else here be. Nothing to fear but fear itself. Get ready for a fight and civil disobedience on a grand scale. If you don’t have the stomach for it then line up for the yellow badges.
It is a difficult situation – you may be compliant with the tax laws where you live, and even in other countries where you earn money via investments but because of the way the USA defines US person and CBT you are a criminal IN the USA if you don’t comply with US law – a place you don’t live, work in or invest in. This is the same as an Canadian Iranian living Canada but technically in violation of Iranian laws. It is surreal
@anne frank
” Banks aren’t asking for passports anyway! ”
Philippine banks are asking unless you look Filipino.