From Life Behind the IRon Drape, a blog by Mark Hubbard which critiques New Zealand’s IRD (Inland Revenue Department):
FATCA: The (NZ) Officials’ Report – A Crime That Deserves a Revolution
Here is an excerpt from this powerful evisceration of New Zealand’s new tax policy report heralding that country’s own IGA with the US:
Yesterday IRD Tax Policy published a 310 page document, part of which was the officials’ response to the IGA between NZ and the US, and FATCA, and the submissions made against both by the public. That report becomes a good object lesson to all submitters of what a whitewash such exercises are, and what a sham our statist captured democratic processes have become. The report proper started at page 112 of the document: it is sadly unsurprising the first 111 pages dealt with what you might have thought was such a simple thing as how employee allowances are to be dealt with (such is the complexity of our taxing legislation). Although I could only make it to page 117 before my eyes were so blurred with tears of fury, and I had no interest in reading on, even in these five pages, look at what this report says about our society, and our world, in 2014.
New Zealand tax officials have just confessed, quite casually, to the creation of the full, one-world police surveillance state under the auspices, sorry, the outright bullying, of our US masters.
On a lighter note (sort of), in case you haven’t seen this funny from some time ago…
http://thebilzerianreport.com/fatca-explained/fatca-cartoon/
My opinion (today as I have been known to change my mind) is that to procure false documents to defend oneself against FATCA is morally justified, but very risky and probably not the smartest idea. There are too many things that could go drastically wrong, and one could easily end up in more hot water than they started in.
@Bubblebustin, Just my two cents. I don’t think those two approaches are divergent. They are different ways of attacking the enemy. All is fair in love and war. FATCA is war. Good people will do things they otherwise would think was horrendous when they are at war, in defense of themselves and their families and their society.
Well for one thing, you can forget about any part of a damage settlement with the banks, if there ever is one.
I strongly agree with @Concerned Maple Leaf. Making a false document (forgery) is a serious crime in Canada. While it is sometimes difficult to prove who forged a document, once you Utter a Forged Document (Section 368 Criminal Code) you have also committed a serious crime. By presenting a passport with an altered place of birth at a bank, with the intent that they act on it as if it were genuine, you have violated section 368 CC. In my opinion, a properly instructed jury would have no choice but to find you guilty of this offence despite where their sympathies might fall. While what is happening here is unjust, I do not believe it justifies anyone committing crimes and placing themselves in jeopardy. We are law-abiding citizens who are branded as criminals. Let’s not take actions that cause us to actually become criminals, despite how aggrieved we feel. Hopefully we can still fight this successfully while maintaining the moral high ground.
Close your bank account. Get them where it really hurts.
@Canadian Cop
Thank u for your comment. I understand why they would get *false* papers but to me… its making a bad law that has already branded all US persons criminals… U are proving to them, u are a criminal… I won’t compound the issue by being a real criminal… So far… we are criminals to the US and 2nd class in Canada… There will be other *legal* means to protect what is ours… If the canadian gov’t won’t do it for us… then we find the way to legally do it… As noted by some here… the gov’t is using our funds to screw us over & to fight a lawsuit… And we have to raise additional funds to protect ourselves… I never thought I would ever see such bs in my lifetime
If people start moving their funds into Credit Unions this summer, won’t that be a strong signal to their bank that they might be a US person? Might they not report you out of spite? Remember the banks can choose to report you even if your account technically falls under the threshold. Of course they would be reporting you to CRA who would likely ignore it if the account value is below $50K.
I can’t help but think there must be more creative ways to move your money around that won’t be as easily detected. And I’m not talking about burying gold in your backyard! I don’t want to post the alternative methods of spreading your funds around that won’t be detected because that would be letting the cat out of the bag but what I have in mind is perfectly legal and would not get flagged.
@omgheestillanamerican
U are right… I spoke to some of my family… what we need to do… one relative decided to lower his accounts… all in 1 day… bank called to ask why… good thing relative just gave him a bs answer… if u do shuffle your funds… don’t do it quickly… have a game plan… but do it before the deadly day… Also.. if u keep the balance at the bank below the amount… vary the amount kept there… another words… don’t stay at that balance all the time… Also… do not keep anything of value in your safety deposit box… that sucker can be seized & u can be screwed… its legal to have the box… its legal to hold whatever for now… how do I know the US won’t start to want to seize the box cause they suspect u have more? I can’t rely on the govt or banks to protect me… I rather earn no interest then have no funds…
@OMG
Why would a bank report someone who’s no longer a customer. As a matter if fact, if they suspect you are a USP, they may just be happy to see you go – unless you are a high net worth individual. Spite? That would see the lawsuits rolling in. Better to be in the extortion racket, with that kind of mentality on their part.
Canadian Cop, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@US_Person_Foreigner, I’m obsessing about the high balance we carry in our checking account and we’re nowhere near the reporting limit. I have these nightmares about what will happen when my husband gets his Christmas bonus and the balance goes to almost $25K. Of course we whittle that balance down during the course of the year paying for things like car repairs and other extraordinary expenses. We live in a crazy world when having a cash buffer which everybody is recommended to have becomes a potential problem.
I also worry that because I keep my business accounts at the same bank and the accounts are linked, they might add all the amounts together and think geez the total balance is getting high. My husband’s name is not on my business accounts but he does have signing authority since he does the bookkeeping. I know for a fact the bank does not have any US indicia on him since we opened the account about a year and a half ago and we were extremely careful.
Also the threshold for reporting on business accounts is $250K so I’m probably working myself into a tizzy over nothing.
I strongly agree with Concerned Maple Leaf, Anne Frank, Canadian Cop, BB & OMG re. the use of false passports, although it’s perfectly understandable why people are tempted to break rules when targeted by injustice. We must fight this without losing our own integrity. Remember the actions of truly great men who fought injustice such as Martin Luther King & Gandhi.
OMG, you can’t tease us like that! (lol) I have also been concerned about this, as I have already been moving money out of my Big 5 bank into a credit union. If anyone at the bank in tune with FATCA has been watching my account activity they would think that I look awfully suspicious for a USP – hopefully this is not the case but it has crossed my mind. Please reconsider telling us your idea(s)…
(And we are way off the New Zealand thread here)
@Anne Frank: I agree completely no one should be getting a fake passport.
I asked for a passport without my place of birth several years ago before I ever heard about FATCA. The passport officer said “We can do that, but you should be aware 16 countries will not admit anyone traveling on a passport without place of birth. The United States is one of them.”
I did not ask what the other 15 countries were. Because my mother was still alive, I needed to be able to travel to the U.S. Since her death a few months ago, I probably have made my last trip across US border.
So before anyone asks for a passport without place of birth, you should determine if you will be traveling to or through United States. In addition, you may want to find out what the other 15 countries are that will not admit someone without a place of birth on their passport.
How did a tread about New Zealand capitulation to FATCA become a discussion about cloned passports?
@Bubblebustin
I was arguing about the basic morality and justification in one’s actions when defending oneself against a perceived significant threat, but was definitely NOT promoting the actual procurement of false documents.
I see a strong parallel with such an illegal act done in order to fend off FATCA, with a situation say where one is being physically harmed by an intruder who has broken into ones’ home, and then physically striking back. The modes of the attack and defense, are different, but the principle of right to defend oneself is the same, in my opinion. People do get exonerated of the crime of killing someone ( a far WORSE crime than forging documents) under the defense of self principle.
Once again, I repeat, I do not think it is a good idea for anyone to be procuring illegal documents – We’re not at a point where we do not have other alternatives – just saying that I can understand the motivation behind it, and that motivation is not without moral validity, imho.
The jury will decide whether or not Oscar Pistorious is guilty of murdering his girlfriend, but he is using the self defense argument for all its worth.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-what-pistorius-claims-what-the-prosecution-claims–and-how-the-two-different-versions-dont-add-up-9263835.html
@ Concerned Maple Leaf
It can’t be such a big deal. After all, the Canadian gov’t does nothing when the Mossad uses forged passports to help them commit dirty deeds.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/commentary-and-analysis/692-why-are-we-surprised-that-mossad-used-fake-passports
However, I don’t recommend that honest Canadians that we are resort to such tactics. As for transferring funds … that’s tough … no matter which way you do it the bank can flag your file (and you’ll never know it). I decided to leave things be but mostly because everything I’ve got is not in a Big Fiver. What I am prepared to do is remove every single cent if they challenge me about my Canadian citizenship. It’s the only citizenship I have ever had and I’m going to get very uppity if anyone in Canada tries to lay a foreign country’s personhood on me. As for that foreign country, it can pound sand with its frickin personhood claims.
WTF does Pistorius have to do with IBS? P.S. There is no jury.
Just rambling on a rainy Friday….
Not filing US tax returns and FBARS is a crime too. There are some Brockers who are compliant whose decision to became compliant had a lot to do with their believe that it was the right, moral thing to do, and not just because they thought it was the least costly, risky path out for them. However, many other Brockers (some compliant, some not), strongly feel that sometimes the lawful thing to do, does not equate with the right, moral thing to do
Those US persons who have decided NOT to comply are being treated like criminals by lawyers, bankers, compliance condors, homeland Americans, fellow citizens, the US government; and even our own governments through their acquiescence act as though they agree we are such.
Maybe we should all just obey the laws, Canadian and US, and file the damn paperwork regardless of the personal cost, and deal with the fact of FATCA. How come forging documents seems to be some line crossed, whereas not filing income US income tax and reporting laws is not – at least for some of us?
Again, I am not promoting the act of procuring forged documents ( I think it will not help our cause as a group, and is too much of a risk for anyone), just saying that technically, a lot of us are actually criminals – depending on who you ask.
oooops, please excuse the typos.
@Kalc, Oh really, I didn’t know there was no jury. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
Re: your question: “WTF does Pistorius have to do with IBS?
I was just doing some philosophizing on morality, law, justification of crimes, etc. Sorry if you found it a bit off topic. Have you become the topic moderator?
WhiteKat, you raise important ethical questions.
Yes we are criminals according to US law for not filing our US tax returns but we must all follow our innate sense of right and wrong in deciding our actions. We all feel that the US laws of CBT & FATCA are bad unjust laws and that we are not compromising our integrity in not complying with them. As a Canadian living in Canada I feel no moral obligation to obey a bad foreign law – I know that you feel the same way.
Falsifying a passport, even in “self defense” against a bad unjust law, crosses a line for me. This is a good and just Canadian law and we should not break it. I sense that we really are in agreement about this. You have made many admirable passionate arguments against the injustice of our situation.
At any rate, further getting of topic on the New Zealand capitulation post, consider that the CANADIAN CHALLENGE may be best for what needs to be done to put something legally in place to protect the SOVEREIGNTY OF CANADA and other nations from such foreign country assault as FATCA and ensure that the law of the land applies to all, that US Persons in those countries will not be second-class to any other because of their national origin — and a precedent for blocking similar future assaults by other countries.
@calgary411, it is so very important that we defeat the Canadian government and by extension the US government in court. If the Americans get away with looting our Treasury, other countries will see Canada as weak and fair game. We have the soundest banking system in the world, we have natural resources. Canada will become a free for all for foreign Treasuries to start raiding it through Canadian citizens who were born elsewhere. We are a country of immigrants. That has always been a good thing but now it could be the end of us.
Imagine that India will start dreaming of ways to extract wealth from their expatriates. There must be at least a million Canadians who were originally born in India, I am one of them. They may not have all the tools the US does to extort Canada but they have plenty of tools to extort Indians. India is a rising power and don’t be surprised if they start flexing their muscles too. How will the Canadian government defend Indians when they did not defend US expatriates? They will have lost the moral high ground.
Imagine France who had the audacity to hold elections in Canada. What might they dream up next to carve out their piece of the pie in Canada?
Canada is on the verge of greatness. Wouldn’t it be a shame if our country was picked apart by vulture foreign governments who used their expatriates to extract wealth from Canada.
Life as we know it now in Canada will be forgotten. Free healthcare? Forget about it. We won’t be able to afford it if our citizens start going bankrupt because other countries start picking away at their resources.
@ Mr. A. I agree with the general nuance of your last comment, except for the following statement: “We all feel that the US laws of CBT & FATCA are bad unjust laws and that we are not compromising our integrity in not complying with them. ”
For some ‘US persons’, becoming compliant IS NECESSARY in order to not compromise their integrity. For a subset of this group, this does not result in financial devastation, but for many others, it does. How sad is that?
@Calgary, Yes. I hope ‘US persons’ everywhere will recognize the significance of the fight that is taking place in Canada, and will help to finance this LEGAL challenge to put right the wrongs of FATCA and CBT.