Presenter for this session: John Richardson, Citizenshipsolutions.ca
($20 to offset costs – payable at the door)
CALGARY, AB – Saturday, APRIL 19, 2014, 2:30 – 5:30 p.m.
http://www.kensingtonlegion.ca/ (free parking /Legion restaurant will be open)
Map: North Calgary Kensington Royal Canadian Legion No. 264, 1910 Kensington Road NW, Calgary, AB
This session comes with the “No one But Someone Who Is Going Through This Can Really Understand” element. John Richardson, like us who need information and SUPPORT, is a US Person in Canada.
A lot of grass-roots volunteerism by generous persons committed to this goes into these sessions. We don’t offer polish; we do offer information and support to help you come to the right decision for you and your family.
(John will be leaving for the airport right after the session as he will present at the Edmonton Information Session, Sunday, April 20, 2014, details to be announced.)
I hope to meet MANY Calgary and area persons on April 19th — this is your Alberta opportunity to attend ours in the series of Canadian and European information sessions.
Thanks, Wren.
It feels good to now have the date, the time, the Calgary facility confirmed as John Richardson makes travel arrangements to come from Toronto. Offered to Albertans will be things to think about in making difficult decisions for themselves and their families — Albertans who want information on what the approach of July 1, 2014 means for those deemed ‘US Persons in Canada’.
John will not provide legal advice, rather things to consider
– before jumping into hasty decisions that might be adverse to financial plans, retirement savings;
– before ignoring it all on advice from their MPs they have nothing to worry about, as government representatives boast that Canada negotiated a good deal with the US in the IGA signed for FATCA; or
– in weighing decisions to retain US citizenship which may provide US work and other opportunities and, with full realization of their US tax and reporting requirements or consequences, going forward
This will be information for Albertans who may have heard they are now described by the Canadian government as ‘Americans who happen to live in Canada’, ‘US citizens resident in Canada’ or ‘US taxpayers resident in Canada’ when they thought they were CANADIANS as others in this great country. It may be sinking in that the Canadian government is now describing them as second-class to any other Canadians, no matter their ‘national origin’.
@Wren: When I first joined Brock in January, 2012, Schubert posted information on the relinquish don’t renounce thread that we can all get a copy of our signed oath from our Citizenship and Immigration (CIC) immigration file.
Tiger and I wrote for information from our files. We had the documents in two or three weeks. Both of us became Canadian citizens at a time when it was a requirement to renounce any other citizenship. I remembered signing that document and was delighted when it arrived in the mail. Interestingly, it arrived just minutes before Tiger, Somerfugl and I had our first consultation with Joe Arvay on March 9, 2012.
I was on a high when I saw the document. It’s a bit difficult to read because it was stored on microfiche, but it is legible. I have a copy in my safety deposit box, at home and with my accountant and lawyer. The IRS may not accept that document, but I don’t see how any Canadian financial institution could refuse to accept it as proof that I am not a “US person.”
Anyone can obtain a copy of their signed oath from their citizenship file, but the renunciation was only required until April, 1973, so anyone who became a citizen after that date will not have the renunciation oath. I just squeaked in when I became Canadian on April 27, 1973.
An 86 year old man who became a Canadian citizen in 1970 asked me this week if the renunciation would be included in his oath because he was able to become a Canadian citizen as a British subject through his Scottish mother. He remembers signing a document and swearing an oath on the Bible, but he doesn’t know if it actually included renunciation of US citizenship. Does anyone else know the answer to that? His wife, on the other hand, had no British subject connection and was required to take the test and meet with the Citizenship Judge, so her documents should have the renunciation oath. He was hopeful the renunciation would be there for both of them because travel to the US Consulate in Toronto would be challenging for both of them.
Here is how to get the information from your citizenship file.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/DEPARTMENT/atip/requests-atip.asp
You can either apply on line or mail a letter requesting the information. Be sure to provide as much information as possible–date of citizenship, place of citizenship, citizenship certificate number if you have it. If you apply by mail, but you give your e-mail address, you will receive the information faster.
The cost is $5.00. It was the best $5.00 I’ve ever spent.
Canadian girl.403,
Your son was likely not able to “claim” US citizenship as you did not live in the US for the required amount of time so could not transmit yours to him. http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-child-born-abroad.html
You, though, are a US citizen having been born in the US from all I read. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401
I don’t think you can rely on wrong information given from the lawyer retained for adoption. (I hired a Washington, DC immigration / nationality lawyer to confirm the citizenships of my children, born in Canada to US citizen parents. It is indeed the same as what I am able to read in the US regulations, so likely not money well spent.) But, others here may have better information to offer you.
I do agree that your working for CRA will be the best avenue for you now to be able to RELINQUISH that US citizenship and eventually have in hand a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. You might also note: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/22/a-thank-you-to-all-brockers/comment-page-1/#comment-1277003
@calgary; This is from the CRA Draft Guidance which is not meant to be public.
@all, read through this and apply it to your own situation or that of friends and family.
So if you were born in the US but committed a relinquishing act and do not have a valid US passport you would have likely considered yourself not a US person today under FATCA or yesterday pre-FATCA.
Now if that argument and guidance held which I do not believe the US will allow in the end, I would personally have little problem.
The link to the document was posted by someone else on the credit union thread;
—–
Determination of whether an individual is a U.S. citizen
8.64 An account holder may be unsure whether he or she is a U.S. citizen and may ask a financial institution for clarification about the rules for U.S. citizenship. These rules are complex, and financial institutions are not expected to provide information on all aspects of U.S. citizenship rules. If an account holder asks for such a clarification, a financial institution should be prepared to provide the following information.
In general, you should consider yourself to be a U.S. citizen if any of the following apply:
– You were born in the U.S. and have not relinquished U.S. citizenship;
– You are a naturalized U.S. citizen; or
– You hold a valid U.S. passport.
George, thanks for that from the CRA Draft Guidance (that is nice to have though we shouldn’t!).
For my own family, I do hope that the banks use the definition in that CRA Draft Guidance (though, you’re probably correct, the US will have something to say about that!):
as none apply to my son! Would it be too wonderful if my son were really out of consideration and this whole family is safe!
So do I have to fill out the 4079, 4081 and 4083 if I am going to make an appointment with the US embassy to apply for the CLN.
Canadian girl.403
First of all, you should email the Calgary Consulate, Calgary-ACS@state.gov, requesting an appointment. I did so as the first process for renunciation; yours, a claim to relinquishment (and all of your documentation for working for CRA) will be a little different. They will email back to you information to read and eventually forms they require you to fill out and return by email. They will have everything ready for when you go in for your appointment. Calgary, by all reports (including mine) was pretty straight-forward to deal with.
You should go over all the forms and the answer for them to acquaint yourself with questions you may be asked at the Consulate.
If you have already relinquished your citizenship (eg. upon obtaining citizenship in another country — or other reason) and are now applying for a CLN:
4079
.Request for determination of loss of citizenship
.This has four pages of questions, requiring dates; it’s best to fill it out in advance of your consulate meeting.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
4081
.Statement of understanding of consequences (The Consulate will have this filled out.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
4083
.Certificate of loss of nationality (The Consulate will have filled out and it will go on to Washington, DC for approval.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf
Statement
.Not necessary, but can be useful to supplement your 4079 with a written statement to show that your relinquishment was intentional and that your post-relinquishment conduct has been consistent with having relinquished.
@calgary, one more ditty from that draft guidance that the peasants are not suppossed to see right now;
8.66 A financial institution should assume that an account holder is not a U.S. citizen unless the account holder self-certifies that he or she is a U.S. citizen, or provides documentation that either identifies the account holder as a U.S. citizen (e.g., a U.S. passport), or reveals an unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth.
@Canadian girl.403
You mentioned a passport. You have a U.S. passport? When did you acquire it?
Sigh. I don’t know how many times I think I’m on the page with the most recent comments only to discover after I post that there are 15 people ahead of me. I will learn!
I was just going to mention that if @Canadian girl 403 acquired a U.S. passport since her relinquishing act it may hinder the process of getting a CLN on those grounds.
@Blaze – Wow, I had no idea. I will hold onto this info to pass on to others. I asked because I was hopeful my mother might be able to do something like this, as she really isn’t fit to travel to the nearest consulate and, more important, there is the matter of stress. Unfortunately we arrived in Canada in 1974 – so, close but no cigar. 🙁
George, let the financial institutions assume away. Thanks for the additional! (Of course, if the US puts one and one together with the information provided on my FBARs for the accounts that I hold for my son, it may all be in vain. I am hoping those FBARs ARE in train cars in Philadelphia (as someone facetiously prior suggested), no one knowing what to do with them all.)
I wonder when the draft guidance becomes final.
Canadian girl.403,
I see your mention of a ‘passport’ now. I missed that comment. I had read earlier,
If you do, in fact, have a US passport, you will likely have to renounce instead of relinquish (unless you were somehow forced into applying for it to cross the border).
Wren & Calgary411.
I do not have nor have I ever had or tried to acquire a US passport or social security number.
Was just reading how you do not need to have the CLN to have relinquished. So if my bank asks I can say I have no connection to the US based on my losing my US citizenship when I became an officer for CRA.
Still I think I will try to get the hard copy so I will have it. I think it might be safer to have it in writing. I started work in 2001. I do not plan to file any taxes with the IRS.
Wren & Calgary411.
I do not have nor have I ever had or tried to acquire a US passport or social security number.
Was just reading how you do not need to have the CLN to have relinquished. So if my bank asks I can say I have no connection to the US based on my losing my US citizenship when I became an officer for CRA.
Still I think I will try to get the hard copy so I will have it. I think it might be safer to have it in writing. I started work in 2001 with CRA. I do not plan to file any taxes with the IRS.
@Canadian girl 403
No passport – Well, yay! That can make a mess of things. There are some here who say you would not need a CLN but I would worry about not having any kind of paper record. For me, I would feel safer. Whether to file taxes is a complicated issue and that really depends on your personal situation. I’m still working a lot out, myself. I’ve been waiting a year for my Canadian citizenship (after 40 years of living here) and I plan on going to a consulate and relinquishing once that comes through (which could be a year or more, yet – ugh!).
Indeed good, Canadian girl.403 — I presume by “if not my passport” means your “place of birth” noted on your Canadian passport. I think your CRA employment history is the avenue to pursue. Good luck. Let us know how you are doing and if you need further help.
Yes I was referring to my place of birth on my Canadian passport.
I am trying to read everything you have provided and then I will make the app with the US consulate to apply for my CLN.
Thank you again for all this information and willingness to help.
@wren “I’ve been waiting a year for my Canadian citizenship (after 40 years of living here) ”
Thats Step One, the giant step over the rainbow.
Five years ago, you probably saw no need to do a thing as the “greatest nation on earth” would never treat you badly.
I am running into more people like you and urging them if they never plan on going back, then they need to get citizenship of their new home, ASAP. With that step, you can take a deep breath.
Blessings on your journey.Praying for an expedited process of your application.
@George,
How nice! Thank you. Not even 5 years ago for me: I was shamefully (but blissfully) ignorant of all of this until only a few months ago. I finally sent out my application largely because of the suspicion and red tape now involved in being a PR (thanks to 9/11 of course). I figured it would save me some hassle. Boy, I had no idea! Now I’m full of anxiety while I wait for the thing. At least I’ve gotten to know the ladies at the post office quite well. 🙂
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I have done my reading and am in the process of putting all the documents I need together, but I have a couple of questions in regard to relinquishing. I have emailed and booked my App for May 28/14 at 8:00 am. I was sent a loss of Nationality questionnaire.
One of the questions is Will you be providing a written statement regarding your reason for renouncing your US citizenship yes or no. I am not renouncing I am relinquishing based on my work with the Federal Government so should I fill this out?
Another question when you take the oath of renunciation will you____swear or____affirm to the oath? What is the difference?
Final question they want my current address should I fill this out?
@ Canadian girl.
I would not write a statement with a renunciation.
With a relinquishment, as you are, it`s also not necessary but some people do. Not so much to give a reason (which isn’t required anyway) –but because it can be useful to supplement your 4079 with a written statement to show that your relinquishment was intentional and that your post-relinquishment conduct has been consistent with having relinquished. Some people do. Some people don`t. I did – as I rather enjoyed throwing the kitchen sink at them 🙂
Oath/Affirmation? The words are the same for both, except the oath ends with “so help me God.” Also with oath you put your hand on a Holy Book and with an affirmation you don’t.
Current address? Yes, so they can mail the CLN 🙂 Also your current address will be on your CLN.