I just read a report from the Credit Union Central of Canada, which seems to indicate that most Canadian credit unions will be at least partially exempt from FATCA.
Even credit unions over the 175 million asset limit (which are MOST credit unions) appear to be partially exempt. IF less than 2% of their customers are non-resident ‘US persons’ they only have to report those non-residents of Canada under the FATCA IGA presuming I am interpreting this report correctly.
Am I dreaming? I sure hope not, and if not, we should have a HUGE BANK PROTEST DAY by moving all our funds out of the big banks and into a credit union!
Select the article titled: “FATCA IGA & Guidance provide much needed details, Mar 11, 2014” from:
http://www.cucentral.ca/SitePages/Publications/Connections.aspx
Here is the link:
http://www.cucentral.ca/Connections/Connections%20FATCA%20IGA%20and%20Guidance%20Final%202.pdf
Thanks WhatAmi. I could not insert it directly into WordPress for some reason.
Great find, WhiteKat!
Damn, the CRA Guidance won’t be publicly available until “sometime in May”. I think I’ll go ahead with my plan and open accounts at about 10 CUs hoping that some of them will be deemed fully-compliant and not have to report.
Keep in mind that any given credit union is (or may be) affected by their parent company with regards to FATCA even though the CU itself appears to qualify by allowing only Canadian-resident customers. I think this detail would be in the Guidance document.
@WhatAmi, Gosh, 10 credit unions! Good luck trying to keep all that straight! Oh well, us ‘US slaves’ gotta do what we gotta do, to keep master off our backs.
“IF less than 2% of their customers are non-resident ‘US persons’ they only have to report those non-residents of Canada under the FATCA IGA”
If the USA and the Canadian Brown Shirts SS were honest and good people this is the way it should have been structured but we all know they are crooks. We also know more and more immigrants don’t speak English and that is their strategy, fill up the country with smiling know nothings who will vote for the party in power at the time of their immigration approval.
Yesterday my husband opened an account in a small credit union (had to go to another town to do it) and there was not even a hint of FATCA stink there. The only odd thing was they did a credit check — maybe because you must take a minimum value of shares to have a CU account. My husband just gave drivers license and healthcare card for ID and apparently his SIN was “optional”. Good luck, @ WhatAmI, finding 10 credit unions without doing a whole lot of driving.
Stealing a link in a tweet by Solomon Yue:
http://www.cuna.org/Stay-Informed/News-Now/Washington/Republican-senators-oppose–FATCA-in-letter-to-foreign-based-citizens/
@WhiteKat
Sounds good. I wonder if the bank I have would appreciate me transferring all my RRSPs too
Anyone know if Coast Capital has over 2% non residents?
Most credit unions are not allowed to create accounts for somebody who is not a resident of the province.
For example if you try to open an account online at vancity.com it asks “Are you a resident of British Columbia?” and if you say no it responds with “Unfortunately, we cannot offer membership outside British Columbia.” This is because provincial regulations prohibit them for creating the account for non residents. I expect that most provincially regulated credit unions will have the same kinds of legal restrictions but your mileage may vary. Federally regulated credit unions may have different rules.
This legal restriction allows the credit union to fit neatly into the “Financial Institution with a Local Client Base” and would be “deemed complaint” regardless of size.
@maryanne
coastcapitalsavings.com states “Unfortunately, we cannot offer membership outside British Columbia.” if you try to open an account as a non resident. So I am pretty sure the amount is 0%
Well hot damn! 🙂
Thank you WhiteKat…I am in the process of moving funds to credit unions although I think the best approach to defeat FATCA is through the Charter Challenge process. Credit unions seem to be better than dealing with the big banks. But how do we know which credit unions have less than 2% non-resident US customers?
I’m starting with this list of high-interest savings accounts:
http://www.highinterestsavings.ca/chart/
All but one have online banking (which sometimes means on-line application). I think all are available Canada-wide but I haven’t checked them all yet.
Implicity has Canadian residency requirements for membership, but their parent company Entegra’s membership holds some non-resident accounts. Five weeks ago a manager at Implicity told me they “might” be reporting as one entity and therefore would not be exempt. She said they are waiting for the CRA Guidance. The draft is out now, so hopefully all credit unions are making progress in figuring out where they stand.
I don’t think FIs will know for sure what they’re doing far enough in advance of the June 30 deadline in order me to wait before opening accounts. Also, some FIs may well jump the gun and start applying new account procedures before July 1. I figure once the dust settles I’ll close the accounts I don’t want.
Here is what I mean about probably not getting enough information by June 30. I received this on Feb 18 from Achieva Financial:
@PatCanadian
My first pass will be to search out credit unions that require Canadian residency, period. I hope not to have to make a second pass looking for FIs under the 2% threshold. Maybe savvy FIs will advertise this fact in a huge blinking red font on their website’s home pages.
Further to @Just a Canadian:
I just minutes ago received an email reply to a website query I sent to Alterna Savings, a large Ontario credit union where I’ve been a member for nearly 40 years, asking on behalf of a non-Canadian-resident relative whether a non-resident can open an account with them (I do have relatives in the US, Germany, and Greece, none of whom would want to do this, but the CU doesn’t need to know that).
The reply is sorry, we don’t offer accounts to anyone not a permanent resident of Ontario.
Hence Alterna Savings also has 0% account holders non-resident in Canada. Hence they are FATCA-exempt. Even though they are well over the $175 million threshold.
I don’t know, but I suspect this will be true of all credit unions in Ontario and probably all provinces of Canada, though this probably needs verification.
As you close your accounts with your treasonous chartered bank, moving them to a credit union, may I suggest that you calmly invite the bank to crawl into a very deep hole and do something very rude and highly unlikely from a biological standpoint, to themselves.
Reality Check folks: I am not aware that ANY banks today require any evidence regarding place of birth. A SIN number, address and normal ID (health card, drivers license, even citizenship card) will do the trick and have no indication of birth place. They will have to start asking that question in future for NEW accounts but it is highly unlikely that any banks could locate more than 1 or 2% of US born Canadians if they had to, at least based on current account info. I don’t see them getting away with asking existing account holders for data about birth place and, if you are a Canadian and are satisfied yourself that you have relinquished, you can truthfully sign any form in future that says “are you a US citizen” by answering “no”.
New accounts will be a different matter under the IGA as will broker accounts (the latter generally ask for a W-8 or whatever the form is called – again, if you have self-relinquished even without going to the consulate, you should be able truthfully to fill that form out by swearing you are a Canadian and not US citizen). In short, while the IGA is discriminatory and bad and all that stuff, it very likely will not make a huge immediate difference. Should you want to change banks, start a business, etc, it begins to get you into trouble.
I guess what I’m saying is that – in MOST cases – there is no reason why a bank will have any record of your birthplace today nor is there any reason for your existing bank to inquire further. IF in doubt, switch banks now before they start asking about birthplace or go to a credit union if you wish. I guarantee not a single credit union is going over the 2% limit because they will all practice “don’t ask, don’t tell” in any event and will never know.
I don’t like this law any more than the rest of you, but I don’t think we need collectively lose quite as much sleep over it. If you have decided to tell the IRS to take their passport and shove it where the sun don’t shine, I don’t think you need do much. I have NEVER crossed the US border with a US passport nor ever conceded to any border official that I was a US citizen (and I’m not), although my Canadian passport has always had the nasty line about birthplace right there in plain sight. A question once or twice about why I don’t have a US passport, politely answered, and I’ve been on my way. I am across on business at least once or twice a year, the odd holiday and I am sure I have been across thirty or forty times at least in the last 30 years.
@Anne Frank
I too have crossed the border 30 to 40 times in the last 40 years without any problem. My sister was recently bullied for the first time driving across the border because of her US birth place. She was told she must have a US passport “next time”. This has been reported by several people here on IBS.
@schubert1975
That’s a good start. Would you like to ask them something like:
“The Canadian FATCA agreement states that financial institutions who refuse account services to non-residents of Canada are “deemed compliant” and totally exempt from FATCA reporting. Will you be claiming such deemed compliancy and “Non-Reporting Canadian Financial Institution” status?”
Response from Geneva bank on US clients
March 20, 2014 by Ellen Wallace
http://genevalunch.com/2014/03/20/response-geneva-bank-us-clients/
GENEVA, SWITZERLAND / EDITOR’S NOTEPAD – An editorial published here Tuesday prompted several replies, including this one from BCGE. The bank BCGE was not my target: it is simply one of several Swiss banks with whom US “persons” for IRS tax purposes had problems in the last three months of 2013.
This was the period when Swiss banks were scrambling to meet an urealistically short deadline set by the US Department of Justice; the result appears to have been administrative problems in several banks that have caused major headaches for many Americans who reside in Switzerland.
BCGE’s reply to my editorial:
Referring to the article (http://genevalunch.com/2014/03/18/american-clients-losers-us-swiss-bankers-row/), BCGE wants to react to inaccurate elements:
Among all banks, BCGE has always welcomed American citizens as it is part of its legal mission to serve all citizens living in the Geneva region. In that manner, BCGE did not intend to discriminate in any way American Citizens who wanted to open bank accounts.
BCGE was one of the first bank to communicate in its press releases (September 12th2013: http://www.bcge.ch/pdf/communiques-presse-20130912.pdf and December 16th2014: http://www.bcge.ch/pdf/communiques-presse-20121216-en.pdf ) and to specify it did not intend to discriminate US clients in the following statements:
· “As a public bank, BCGE is a retail bank whose services (…) are offered to all residents. It has thus also provided services to American nationals domiciled and working in Geneva and its surrounding area. Committed to operating in a non-discriminatory manner, it continues today to serve this clientele and accepts new clients as long as they meet very stringent declarative requirements.”
· “La banque entend préciser à l’égard de ses actionnaires que comme banque publique ayant le souci de n’effectuer aucune discrimination, elle continue aujourd’hui à offrir des prestations de banque de détail à cette clientèle et accepte de nouveaux clients pour autant que ceux-ci remplissent des conditions déclaratives très strictes. »
As a principle, the bank has the right and the obligation in certain circumstances to operate, on advance notice, a transactional blocking. It is the case in particular when after a certain deadline a customer does not send back a specific document or information requested for the normal pursuit of his/her business relationship.
At present, the bank carries out numerous controls within the framework of the program opened by the American department of Justice. The collection of documentation and information are both done in the interest of the customer and of the bank. It is likely that certain customers have some difficulty to understand or accept this complex procedure. Therefore, the bank recommends to its clients to contact their personal advisor.
The letter sent by the BCGE to the holders of US accounts was only sent to the customers among whom assets with the BCGE, for the applicable period of the US program (August 1st 2008 until now), exceed the limit of USD 50’000 fixed in the aforementioned program.Although we do not have knowledge of the particular situation you are referring to, our policy is not close any accounts without advance notice and information to the clients.”
Something just feels to good to be true about this. In any event, even if we can avoid FATCA by dealing only with credit unions, it is still a work around, and does nothing to mitigate my resolve to see FATCA die. We should be free like all other Canadians to bank wherever and however we like. Of course it would be nice to see CBT die also, and I would LOVE to be able to get rid of the gum stuck to my shoe (i.e. my US personhood) without having to become ‘compliant’, but my main desire is to have MY country stand up for me against the bully to the south.
@WhatAmi,
Yes, we need the answer to that question, or else we might be making some very incorrect assumptions. Like I said in the above comment, this feels almost too good to be true.
@WhatAmI I don’t see any value in asking that question of any credit union staff until after May 27. First, most credit union staff won’t likely even be aware of any of this stuff, until it gets finalized (or as final as anything ever will get, the way the IRS keeps f***ing around with the regs ever week or two, I’m amazed all the world’s FFIs and governments haven’t told them and the US to get stuffed already by now, because of that). Second, as far as I can tell none of this is in the wording of the IGA itself nor in the Finance discussion document on the legislative changes, I’ve searched for “credit union” and “2%” separately in both PDFs and didn’t hit any paydirt. The reference, as WhiteKat notes, is in a Credit Union Central of Canada document (supposedly not for public release, though that horse has obviously long left the corral already) and refers to some technical documents on their website which I haven’t seen and aren’t final yet. But CUCC sounds pretty confident this is the way it’s going to unfold.
If anyone wants to ask their own questions of credit unions or banks about this, though, be my guest. I’ve satisfied myself on this score re Alterna, and like Anne Frank I don’t see any need to lose sleep over things at this point. But then I have a CLN, as does my wife, so it’s maybe too easy for me to say that.
I’m just sitting back and enjoying the wheels falling off the FATCA bus as it careens down the cliff. And waiting eagerly for the next federal election, to get rid of what’s left of the Harperhood. And wondering if and when and what Flaherty will say in his memoirs about all this. Timing of his resignation seems rather interesting. Anyone who’s watched his body language in Question Period since the Senate scandal opened up can’t be in much doubt about no love lost between Flaherty and Harper … and likely on more things than the Senate and the income-splitting business.
I have news for you. I just opened a savings account at Alterna credit union and the manager asked me point blank where I was born…on the form there is a field for Country of citizenship(s) and Residence Status. also
Foreign Taxation (List all countries to which taxes accrue and are payable)
They are getting ready for FATCA!!!
Imposed or not. If this is not privacy intrusive what is…makes me fill sick.
The good news is a driver’s licence and a bill to your home address will do to open an account.
And don’t ask me what my answer was…. I was tempted to say Eritrea but I did not have the right accent…