At WhiteKat’s suggestion — and, she’s right, I should have posted instead of commented.
Thanks, John Richardson, author, and to Just Me for highlighting it. Another excellent, common sense explanation — no beating around the political bush.
We need a Canadian version of John Richardson’s additional submission to NZ Select Committee.
If every Canadian MP (or other country government representative) would read the document as it pertains to Mr. and Mrs. Middle-Class Countryman, they would understand what FATCA really means for Canada, New Zealand or any other country.
The emotional trauma of FATCA combined with US citizenship-based taxation law for a so-defined ‘US Person Abroad’, as described by Dr. Donald Young and understood by Mr. Richardson, is the missing link and not dealt with anywhere else.
The US tax compliance professionals assisting us in with US tax law or US accounting for our US tax returns OR the media person trying to tell the FATCA story so the general public can understand OR government representatives deciding what to best do for their country OR our family and friends really DON’T KNOW. The only ones who know that aspect are us — the persons living the horror of the US Person round-up.
It is as essential for others to know this aspect of FATCA as for us to somehow effectively deal with our never-ending up’s and down’s of the emotional trauma we experience. There is an IQ needed to understand all this and I think, more importantly, an EQ (the Emotional Quotient of Intelligence).
(Perhaps some of you don’t experience this aspect. I can’t imagine — if so, you are exceptional.)
This is true even though neither child has ever been to the United States and probably would not be allowed to vote in the United States.
It would be interesting if someone could estimate with some level of certainty how many US citizens (living abroad), who are not eligible to vote due to the above illustration. Anybody have an idea?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080723194403/http://www.fvap.gov/reference/nev-res/index.html
It is the frustration of things -simple things that others do without thought – that makes it utterly frustrating and throws my inner child (who craves fairness) out of whack.
The fact that starting a business is nearly impossible because of the disconnect between US and Canadian tax law. It makes freelance or contract work pointless because of the double taxation.
Savings vehicles that people take for granted are rendered useless b/c of either taxation or reporting or both.
I was reading about the Conservative dust up over income splitting for tax purposes and wondered how that plays out in a mixed household. I am guessing not well so yet another potential benefit is off-limits to the USC tainted.
Simpler yet is just being allowed to travel on your passport of residence when on holiday or taking care of family issues south of the border. Few people understand the inherent problems of carrying two passports or having children traveling on a passport different from your own.
But it comes down the issue of freedom and though I have always known that freedom is mostly an illusion carefully maintained by the various governments, it’s a bit of a reality check when you are daily confronted with evidence that there is simply no such thing and we are “owned” by the various countries in which we live. It’s like being a child of divorce or maybe more aptly like a dog whose ownership is in dispute. Two countries haggling over how best to share me without resorting to Solomon’s wisdom and just hacking me in two and divvying up.
@Yogagirl, what a fantastic comment. Sadly, I don’t think as a young person moving to Canada I fully understood the implications of living outside the U.S. or taking a Canadian citizenship. Back then you see I DID think I was free to move where I liked without being assumed to be a crook for doing so. Without being seen as suspect and bad. Certainly, it had implications I wasn’t fully prepared for but, was quickly made aware of. However, I never realized how impossible this was all going to become.
It’s late in life for me to be waking up to the absolute fact that for me it was simply impossible to be a dual citizen. I could not move back as our financial situation doesn’t allow us to just up roots at our age, not that this is what I would have done. FATCA has so many negative consequences it makes one feel like a trapped animal at times.
YogaGirl,
Thanks for pointing out that starting a business is so restrictive and not at all cost-effective as an entrepreneur venture if a person in Canada (or any other country) has US status. I don’t think a lot of people realize that point.
Our Canadian savings vehicles should all come with a WARNING STICKER for anyone who would be considered a US Person. “Exempt” my foot!
Two passports for two citizenships if one of them is US while living in Canada and just crossing borders that way with children who do not need that extra one becomes ludicrous and only throws up more barriers for a family.
Having this duality does come down to lack of freedom and an attack on the values each of us holds dear. We’d best make a choice and stay in our own back yards — at least for those of us who do have that right to renounce and be rid of the extraneous US citizenship. Leaving aside the principle of the whole thing, it becomes a wise business decision if nothing else.
John mentioned the lack of anywhere to discuss the emotional trauma too. Quite honestly lately I have been thinking of going to see a therapist over this. I feel as if half my identity has been stripped away and stolen. I haven’t a clue how to feel about a lot of this. Yesterday someone asked me how I felt the first time I went back to the U.S. after not being a citizen any longer. I don’t know, I haven’t done it yet but, the reality is I will likely put it off just because it’s going to feel so different and be so odd. I am still full of resentment at the forced decision I had to make and sorrow too. It’s like a roller coaster.
I’ve thought about this long and hard and given that I lost five family members the year I found out about FATCA and now have lost my U.S. citizenship too I made some comparison. It’s very different when a family member dies and you go through a grieving process which is to be expected. It’s another thing entirely to be boxed in at my age into losing your birthright. I feel adrift like I don’t belong to anyplace at all. Yes, I’m Canadian but, that’s only HALF my story and I feel like I’ve been forced to deny the other half for having done literally nothing wrong. If I talk about that outside this group I’m called a ‘tax evader” or worse. Reading the message on the NPR article or lack thereof from Treasury was the icing on the case. They know this is happening, they knew when they did this it would and have decided that’s okay. Fall on your sword because this is what is best for us. It’s such an outrage but, we’re kept silent by the lack of proper reporting. ANYTHING to keep the “image” up that FATCA is a good thing.
What depths won’t they sink to? Or will they sink to next?
@atticus.. I can totally relate to your comment about seeing a therapist. While I have not done so yet… Finding all this out a month ago has set me in such a panic mode that I have had literally RUN to my doctor to get meds deal with the panic attacks and to be able to shut my mind down long enough to sleep.
Its NOT that I have done ANYTHING wrong, it’s the fact I did not know I was obligated to do IRS and fbar. I have no problem doing the streamlined catch up.. In fact all forms are done and sitting in the “evil box” as I call it. Its pure panic at the thought of the outrageous “fines” that “could” be imposed.. For what? Working my ass off in canada, trying to save up in canada for my retirement in canada.. Sigh!
@ atticus, I was just thinking about that this morning b/c I have been told to expect to be contacted about my test date for Canadian citizenship in the next month or so. How will it feel to still be connected to the US via family and visit there as a non-USC. It’s not as small a thing as people might think and it goes beyond simply not technically being one of them.
My Canadian husband is quite the handyman and on occasion he has been pressed into do little things around my parents’ home but he has pointed out to me each time that this is something he doesn’t want to make a habit of simply because the USG views it as illegal. A non-USC can’t do things like a simple home repair or even care for a relative because it’s “work” that an American can be paid for doing.
So if my elderly mother, or another relative, has a fall or is ill and needs someone to stay with them for a time to help out, I would be violating the law to do so if it falls under the classification of work that an American could be paid to do. Crazy, huh? But when you are checking past the border and the guard asks what are you planning to do? Telling him or her that you are heading to your mom’s to take care of her while she recovers from this or that could get you turned back.
I know people who came to Canada as adults and still have bank accounts and whatnot in the States. Those can be closed once you give up citizenship if the bank or financial entity discovers that.
As far as identity goes, I already feel weird when I go to visit there now. I know my way around. I am not shocked by things like my husband and daughter sometimes are. But I am definitely not one of them in the strictest of senses.
Although, I am not entirely Canadian as I pointed out to my husband the other evening as I dealt with yet another glitch on the immigration hamster wheel here. It’s disconcerting and even scary to be not either fully American (b/c the USG views me as suspect) and a second class resident of Canada via the permanent residence status.
And I do feel second class. I told my husband that the only difference between me and the Asian and Filipino nannies I see milling about the library and parks on weekday mornings is that I pass for Canadian with far less effort than they do. Aside from my slight accent, and everyone in Alberta has an accent because of the current boom situation, no one guesses me a USC.
I am hoping that becoming just a Canadian will help me feel settled at last. There would be no going back to the US even if I retained citizenship. These days you can’t step up the treadmill down there and expect to ever get back on – not as a middle aged women especially. That bridge was burnt long ago.
Pingback: Further submission to the New Zealand budget committee on #FATCA and the Exit Tax | Citizenship Counselling For U.S. Citizens in Canada and Abroad
@ Atticus; maybe all Brockers should flock to their MD’s requesting anti-depressants and sleeping pills.We could become a drain on the health care system. The Canadian Medical Association would come up with a name for our disease ie FATCA- associated PTSD. Then perhaps the Medical establishment might lobby government to kill IGA.
@Disgusted, I don’t think we’ll need to flock there. I already know people whose blood pressure was affected, people who have had other health issues over this so doctors are already seeing it happen. I doubt Canadian docs would lobby for us. We deserve it don’t you know. We had the gall to be an American who left the U.S. and are now using their medical services. I had two nasty nurses in my life time here, one when my son was born and one when I had surgery another time who flat out told me they resented my being here and “using OUR services” after they had seen I was “American” on the paperwork.
Being a U.S. expat was never an easy thing. Disliked down there for “leaving” and here at times for just being an American. That is the reason American kids traveled with maple leafs on their back packs. U.S. persons have never been loved around this world. I’m not looking for sympathy or empathy. In fact that’s another side affect of this. It’s made me distrustful. I have done just fine managing this as best I can with the support of Brockers. Outside of this group I won’t be asking anyone for their support nor do I want it.
@Not That Tara
It is would be nearly impossible to tell how many children would be affected. 30 out of 50 states currently provide some voting rights, although sometimes with strange limits (South Dakota seems to allow voting only until age 22) and considerable variation (Kansas doesn’t even seem to have a clear, state-level policy). The District of Columbia also provides voting rights. Determining how big this problem is would requiring knowing where people lived before they emigrated and how many children they had abroad. The U.S. government has attempted to do a census, but this turned out to be too difficult.
For the full details: http://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter/reside
It is only because of Brockers and Maple Sand Boxers that I haven’t totally “lost it”. (Rather feel like I’m in a version of the movie “Her”, having my most important relationships at the moment with a computer). When I talk with my Canadian friends about my depression the response is basically, poor you, that is totally crazy and then hoping I will just shut up. In my paranoia I assume they are thinking just what you “entitled Americans” deserve and now we are going to have to pay for our banks becoming compliant, what did you come here for anyway. My American family’s feelings are rather similar…got what you deserve for leaving, we have to get those tax dodgers guess you got caught in the fallout, too bad, now will you just shut up. My young adult children think…mom, there you go obsessing again would you just “chill”. Unfortunately it is all I can think about at the moment.
Just having learnt about FBAR last month I spend my entire waking hours think about what to do. I can’t afford the FBAR penalties let alone an accountant, seems the IRS is starting criminal investigations of relinquishers, have to sell my recently deceased mother’s house in the US and all the IRS worries about how to handle that, my son is in the US, what if something happens to him and I can’t go. On and on go my worries. I am a senior that worked very hard all of my life in Canada, have saved miserly for my retirement and now I will be bankrupt. Yup, makes me feel sick all over… mentally and physically.
On a deeper level what is truly deeply depressing me is I adored Obama, couldn’t stand being in the same room with a Republican. I was a loyal fan of the liberals; MSNBC, Jon Stewart, Bill Maher have written to all of them regarding FATCA and no one will listen, will take up the unintended fallout. So I’m left with hoping the Republicans take over the government. At a visceral level, that just makes me sick. I can’t stand myself and my own hypocrisy.
Charl, there are more than enough of us here: for example, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/28/an-historic-day-help-canada-stand-up-to-the-american-bully-donate-now-to-the-canadian-charter-challenge-fund-2/comment-page-9/#comment-1167367 and comments after that.
That Canadian Charter Challenge is our fight and you are part of that and another part in the letters you are writing — Yes, the Canadian government should be doing better to protect you, me, us, our children. We DO UNDERSTAND exactly what you are going through. It is horrible. Talk about it here — the only real place you will have support!
Remember that you are protected in Canada from any FBAR penalties!
Pingback: #FATCA – A US law to keep the poorest nations poor | Citizenship Counselling For U.S. Citizens in Canada and Abroad