In response to her being mentioned in an article in the Globe & Mail (major Canadian newspaper), Green Party leader Elizabeth May submitted the following letter, published February 14:
Acts of renunciation
Re Citizenship For Sale (letters – Feb. 12):
I am not a dual citizen. I am a Canadian citizen and have been since 1978. Any doubt about citizenship is resolved in swearing the oath to Her Majesty the Queen in becoming a Member of Parliament. The U.S. accepts such acts as renunciation, lest there be any doubt.
Elizabeth May, O.C., M.P., Sidney, B.C.
I have no idea why she cites the oath she made on taking her seat as an MP. The wording of that oath is substantially the same as the citizenship oath.
Oath on taking office as MP:
I, [name], do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors. So help me God.
Citizenship oath:
I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
Yes, but did May ever get her CLN? If not, she may be in the same perdicament as many of us, who do not recognize our U.S. person status even though the U.S. claims us as their property.
If the Canadian banks behave like European banks they will most likely demand a CLN or they will make an excuse to decline to open accounts for new customers and close the existing accounts of anyone who is deemed as being infected with US indicia / leprosy.
This is happening all over Europe now. Why would Canada be any different?
Why would any bank want to risk losing 30% on ALL of their customer payments coming from the US?
@usxcanada,
You’re right about the AND being the important word. It makes me wonder how banks will deal with the first part of that conjunction:
“(1) A self-certification that the Account Holder is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);”
The “U.S. resident for tax purposes” part could be construed to apply to ex-citizens who have CLNs but do not have an IRS Form W-8 or other documentation showing that the IRS does not still claim us as U.S. residents for tax purposes.
So, will banks require documentation from the IRS in addition to a CLN? If so, we who have CLNs back-dated to long ago, but who have not dealt with the IRS since expatriating, will still be in difficulty with our banks.
A CLN is still pretty good protection against blood-sucking bankers…
Anon anon
“So, will banks require documentation from the IRS in addition to a CLN? If so, we who have CLNs back-dated to long ago, but who have not dealt with the IRS since expatriating, will still be in difficulty with our banks.”
No that’s not how it works.
You have a CLN. You have citizenship in another country. All that is required is that you (self) certify that you are un American. To do that you sign a W8-ben(eficiary) form supplied by your FI that you are not American. It’s no big deal. It’s done every day. Take time to google W8.
Deckard,
How did you do that? — looks more official than the one I have.
@ calgary411
Ah, the magic of Photoshop… If only we could so easily Photoshop the US out of our lives.
@ Schubert1975
“Getting and even using a US passport does not seem to be a deal-breaker, if you can swear that you only did so because a US border guard told you that you wouldn’t be admitted to the US again with a non-US passport showing a US birthplace (unless you have a CLN, which they don’t generally seem to mention), and especially if the visa stamps on the passport are US-only, showing that you haven’t used your US passport to travel to countries other than the US (and have only used your Canadian or other passport for such purposes).”
Later in your comment you state that this is “hearsay”. I just wonder where you heard it. I’ve never before seen that a passport application, made for any reason, could be waived by the State Department when faced with a person wishing to relinquish rather than renounce. I would really love to know if there have actually been situations like this. Has a precedent been established that some of us might be able to cite when contacting a consulate?
1st Installment of List of Gold Dealers – British Columbia
LIST OF BULLION DEALERS IN CANADA
DO YOU OWN DUE DILIGENCE AS I CAN NOT RESEARCH ALL OF THESE SO ASSUME ANY RISK YOURSELVES. Don’t deal with “gold buyers” only with legitimate bullion dealers
BRITISH COLUMBIA
Western Coins & Stamp Ltd 2-6380 No. 3 Rd, Richmond, BC V6Y 2B3 604-238-0670
Van Isle Coin & Stamp 831 Fort St, Victoria, BC V8W 1H6 250-382-6331
Kelowna Coin & Currency Precious Metals, Coin, Currency & Collectibles 1272 Ellis St, Kelowna, BC V1Y 1Z4 250-763-2718
Canadian Gold & Silver 426 Bernard Ave, Kelowna, BC V1Y 6N7 778-484-505
Express Currency Exchange & Express Gold Ltd 15223 Russell Ave, White Rock, BC V4B 5C3 604-542-4266 1-888-542-4266
Five Star Jewellery Exchange & Loan 455 Tranquille Rd, Kamloops, BC V2B 3H3 778-470-558
Clearbrook Coin Stamp & Cards 106-32885 Ventura Ave, Abbotsford, BC V2S 6A3 604-850-6614
Bluenose Coins & Precious Metals 210 Main St, Penticton, BC V2A 5B2 250-493-6515 1-866-493-6515
Kamloops Bullion 455 Tranquille Rd, Kamloops, BC V2B 3H3 778-470-5588
Gold Silver Guy 558 England Ave, Courtenay, BC V9N 2N3 250-871-4653
Gold Silver Guy 619 Townsite Rd, Nanaimo, BC V9S 1L4 250-591-5511
A A A Stamp Coin Jewellery Inc 809 Fort St, Victoria, BC V8W 1H6 250-384-1315
Benny Lee & Co 619 Hastings St W, Vancouver, BC V6B 1M8 604-683-4241
Gold Silver Guy 1-171 Canada Ave, Duncan, BC V9L 1T4 250-597-8332
J & M Coin & Jewellery 127 Broadway E, Vancouver, BC V5T 1W1 604-695-1654 1-888-244-9999
St Thomas Gold & Silver 140-736 View St, Victoria, BC V8W 1J8 250-380-7698
Summerland Gold & Silver Exchange 101-13209 Victoria Rd N, Summerland, BC V0H 1Z0 778-516-5888
West Coast Stamp Coin 4061 Norwell Dr, Nanaimo, BC V9T 1Y8 250-758-5896
Border Gold Corp 15234 North Bluff Rd, White Rock, BC V4B 3E6 604-535-3287 1-888-312-2288
Gold Silver Guy 19-826 Island Hwy W, Parksville, BC V9P 2B7 250-586-2555
Oak Bay Gold & Silver Coin Inc 2029 Oak Bay Ave, Victoria, BC V8R 1E5 250-592-3808
Surrey Bullion & Foreign Exchange Suite 109-12827 76 Ave, SURREY, BC V3W 2V3 604-598-2007 604-503-2982
Scothill Bullion Currency Exchange 9369 120 St, Delta, BC V4C 6R9 604-497-0909
Vancouver Bullion & Currency Exchange Ltd 118-6061 No. 3 Rd, Richmond, BC V6Y 2B2 604-248-0777
Vancouver Bullion & Currency Exchange Ltd 2576 Granville St, Vancouver, BC V6H 3G8 604-739-3997
Vancouver Bullion & Currency Exchange Ltd 555 Howe St, Vancouver, BC V6C 2C2 604-336-8036
Vancouver Bullion & Currency Exchange Ltd 120-800 Pender St W, Vancouver, BC V6C 2V6 604-685-1008
@ MuzzledNoMore
There are three reports on Brock of relinquishment-based CLN being issued despite passport use (I’m aware of one other, which occurred inanother country, which was not reported on here).
It seems that although an act indicative of US citizenship, which occurs after performing a relinquishing act, can negate the relinquishing act, it does not absolutely/automatically do so. It seems, based on the passport use cases and on cases in which the person had filed taxes all of a sudden due to misinformation, after the relinquishing act occurred, that the circumstances are an important factor (eg duress, misunderstanding, etc.) because the circumstances indicate the intent.
Vancouver. p. 80-81.
Toronto. p. 55
Halifax. comment on thread
Immigration and Nationality Act
“349(b). Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.”
7 FAM 1210 Dept of State Manual on Loss and Restoration of US Citizenship
“1211(d). Who has the burden of proving that loss of US nationality occurred and what is the burden of proof: The party claiming that loss of citizenship opccurred must establish this by a preponderance of the evidence. Black’s Law Dictionary defines a preponderance of the evidence as “[g]reater weight of evidence, or evidence which is more credible and convincing to the mind.” Preponderance of the evidence equates to “more likely than not.” This is also known as the “balance of probabilities.” This is the standard required in most civil cases.”
2nd Installment List of Gold Dealers — ALBERTA
ALBERTA
Highglow Jewellers Ltd 122 Millbourne Shopping Centre NW, Edmonton, AB T6K 3L6 780-461-0942
Diverse Equities Inc 200-222 16 Ave NE, Calgary, AB T2E 1J8 403-230-9321
Albern Coins & Foreign Exchange Ltd 1615 Centre St NW, Calgary, AB T2E 2S2 403-727-0244
Canadian Gold & Silver 1601 Centre St NW, Calgary, AB T2E 2S2 403-250-9773
MRCS Canada 12303 118 Ave NW, Edmonton, AB T5L 2K2 1-877-879-6727
Jaxville 4901 48 St, Red Deer, AB T4N 6M4 403-346-5266
Alberta Bullion Dealers & Refiners Ltd 101-10054 112 St NW, Edmonton, AB T5K 1L9 780-421-0808
West Edmonton Coin & Stamp Corporation 2720-8882 170 St NW, Edmonton, AB T5T 4J2 780-444-1156
Alberta Gold & Precious Metals 403-870-4177
VGS Precious Metals Inc 100-1717 10 St NW, Calgary, AB T2M 4S2 403-282-8877
Northgate Stamp & Coin 12516 118 Ave NW, Edmonton, AB T5L 2K6 780-613-0311
“You have a CLN. You have citizenship in another country. All that is required is that you (self) certify that you are un American. To do that you sign a W8-ben(eficiary) form supplied by your FI that you are not American. It’s no big deal. It’s done every day. Take time to google W8.”
I have some concerns with this, and I’ve been thinking about it for a while now.
I take the position that the IRS has no jurisdiction in my country, and no jurisdiction over me or my wife. If my Canadian bank/credit union is not satisfied with (my wife’s) CLN that shows a 1974 expatriation date, will they ask us to sign an IRS W-8?
And if we are stupid enough to fill out and sign an IRS W-8, have we just tacitly conceded that we recognize IRS jurisdiction over us? I think that is a distinct possibility (I’d like to hear what a lawyer thinks of this) and therefore we won’t be signing a W-8 or any other form from the IRS. What we can offer the bank, if they insist on the W-8, is a statutory declaration to the effect that we are not US citizens, or US residents for tax purposes — in other words they can have a Canadian legal document that says the same thing the W-8 says.
The question is — how are the banks going to deal with this? There is nothing in the language so far that “requires” a W-8 to be signed — it is simply put forward as an example of something that would be acceptable. Could they refuse a Canadian legal document that says the same thing? Would they? Are they so in thrall to the IRS that they will bend over backwards to do their bidding?
Maybe I’m paranoid — but I truly fear signing any document that appears to give the IRS the jurisdiction that I refuse to accept. The banks may want to play ball with the IRS, but I have no intention of doing do.
@Arrow, I think the W-8 is a great form to sign if you have NEVER been a US person but reside in Canada and do a lot of business with US companies. It’s basically a way of telling the IRS to go fly a kite because they have no jurisdiction over you even though most of your income comes from the US, as is the case for me.
I am not now nor have I ever been a US person but the majority of my income comes from the US through my internet business. My American customers ask me to sign W-9’s all the time to which I reply NO WAY but I will sign a W-8 . Oh the joys of never having been an American!
However if I had ever been a US person I might be leery about signing a W-8 just in case they used it as a way to dig deeper into your personal situation to see if they could claw you back into their web.
Arrow,
Thanks (we know that saying about being paranoid!). Very good points. Neither do I wish to sign any US document in my Canadian financial institution.
Hope you are doing well!
I was just thinking how cruel it is that expat Americans are being put through hell and made to give up their birthright at great expense so that people like me (born in India, now a Canadian citizen) can live the American dream without ever having to pay $1 in US taxes.
Oh my God, I’m just like the Canadian banks! You suffer so I can gain. Actually I suffer too since I’m married to someone who is enslaved by his US citizenship. I feel like hiding him in my basement.
@ Arrow. A quote from a friend of mine long ago: “One man’s paranoia is another man’s common sense.”
I totally agree; a notarized statement should suffice. The bank can pay for the notary.
Since the W-8 is about telling the IRS that the US income you are receiving is not taxable because you are a foreign person, I wonder if you would need to sign it if you had NO US INVESTMENTS.
What if you invested only in Canadian companies (pretty hard to do). If you have a CLN and Canadian citizenship and no US investments how could a bank justify making you sign a W-8?
@pacifica777
The relinquishing application, DS-4079— in ‘Vancouver. p. 80-81.’ says it expires Dec 31, 2013 in top right corner page 1. Is it the latest form to use, or is it an administrative DOS indicator?
RE: Question 13 (g) Have you registered your children as citizens of the United States? Can one plead the 5th Amendment? I don’t want to bring them to DOS attention. I don’t know why DOS needs to know. They are adults that can make their own decisions to keep USC or not.
The form that DoS currently has up on the internet says “Expires: 12/31/2013.”
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
When you write Vancouver to book an appointment, their reply includes a link to the 4079 and other required forms. So, I’d just use that link, of course.
It may be that they’re still using the 2013 form – or if there’s a new form, it’s may be pretty similar — so it’s probably worthwhile to look at the 2013 form and possibly filling in as a draft.
About 13(g), I don’t know because I didn’t register children. Someone who has will probably answer.
From what I’ve heard, the consulates haven’t been asking people for details about their children (they generally don’t ask much, if anything, about the 4079), that basically they look at the 4079 to see if the person had registered any children, as it is an indicator of US citizenship, and doing so (or not doing so) after the relinquishing act was performed would be relevant. I haven’t heard of them asking who or where the children are. But this is just what I’ve heard through word of mouth.
Concerning the financial institution’s request for a CLN:
IGA, annex 1, II, B , 4,a),
(3) A copy of the Account Holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
(a) The reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship
Since the CRA IGA FAQ states:
17. Does the Agreement require Canadian financial institutions to report to the CRA on any individuals who were told that they relinquished their U.S. citizenship when they became Canadian citizens?
The Agreement does not require Canadian financial institutions to report on any individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship and are not residents of the U.S.
Individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship may be asked by their financial institution for documentation to this effect.
it is really important tp push CRA for a clarification. Both the IGA and CRA’s FAQ seem to address the problem of old relinquishers, but there is no clear info on the reasonable explanation or required documentation. CRA should inform the financial institutions that a Canadian citizenship certificate is both a reasonable explanation and adequate documentation when it shows that one became a Canadian citizen at a time when the US automatically revoked one’s US citizenship. Why do they pussyfoot around this question?
They pussy-foot around a few questions, this one particularly perturbing in that it’s leading to a lot of confusion:
16. I am a U.S. citizen living in Canada and was not aware that the U.S. wants me to file tax returns. Will the Agreement mean that I now have to pay U.S. tax?
The Agreement is strictly an information-sharing agreement and does not involve any new or higher taxes.
Unlike Canada, the U.S. taxes its citizens who reside in other countries on their worldwide income. The U.S. citizenship-based tax regime has been in place for many years and is not altered by the Agreement. For more information, please refer to the U.S. IRS Instructions for New Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident, Non-Filer U.S. Taxpayers.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/fq-eng.html
I believe that the question asked for a yes or no answer.
@Always Something Says
All the questions on form 4079 should be interpreted in terms of their relevancy to determing your intention at the time you performed the expatriating act.
For example, if your children were born after the expatriating act, and you then attempted to register them as U.S. citizens, this suggests you did NOT perform the expatriating act with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.
3rd Installment Bullion Dealers — Ontario and Manitoba
MANITOBA AND ONTARIO
Gatewest Coin Ltd 1711 Corydon Ave, Winnipeg, MB R3N 0J9 204-489-9112 1-800-565-2646
A B Coin & Collectibles 1418 Main St, Winnipeg, MB R2W 3V4 204-339-4988
Collectibles Canada Coin And Currency Store 2211 McPhillips St, Winnipeg, MB R2V 3M5 204-586-6263
EDI INC 15 Progress Dr, Orillia, ON L3V 6H1 705-327-8691
Central Stamp & Coin 5324 Dundas St W, Toronto, ON M9B 1B4 416-755-9349
Arcade Coins 10 King St E, Toronto, ON M5C 1C3 647-693-9751
Century Stamps & Coins 1723 Lakeshore Rd W, Mississauga, ON L5J 1J4 289-327-0771
Finest Gold Gallery 10271 Yonge St, Richmond Hill, ON L4C 3B5 905-884-7227 1-877-884-7227
Alliance Coin & Banknote 88 Mill St, Almonte, ON K0A 1A0 613-317-1787
G & G Jewellery & Coins 28 University Ave E, Windsor, ON N9A 2Y4 519-256-0712
K L Coin Co 817A Queen St E, Toronto, ON M4M 1H8 416-461-5252
Maple Leaf Coins Kingston, ON 613-531-9632
NorthshoreGoldAndSilver.com 705-497-1009
NorthshoreGoldAndSilver.com ON 705-691-1599
Universal Coins 2440 Bank St, Ottawa, ON K1V 8S1 613-699-2573
Alliance Coin & Banknote Inc 88 Mill, Almonte, ON K0A 1A0 613-256-7319
Altaif Inc Money Exchange 1967 Lawrence Ave E, Scarborough, ON M1R 2Z2 416-285-9669
Cache Metals Inc 166 Davenport Rd, Toronto, ON M5R 1J2 416-975-4603
Can-Am Precious Metals Exchange 277 Front, ON K8N 2Z6 613-962-7547
Colonial Acres Coins 991 Victoria St N, Kitchener, ON N2B 3C7 519-579-9048
DMC Gold 3866 Bloor St W, Etobicoke, ON M9B 1L1 416-821-7213
Guardian International Gold Corporation 21 Dundas Sq, Toronto, ON M5B 1B7 416-861-1888
Ottawa Gold 1309 Carling Ave Westgate Shopping Centre, Ottawa, ON K1Z 7L3 613-979-4653
Sprott Money Ltd 200 Bay St, Toronto, ON M5J 2J2 416-861-0775
The Bullion Mart Inc ON 416-928-0707
Toronto Gold 829 Bloor St W, Toronto, ON M6G 1M1 416-434-4653
Forest City Coins & Stamps 354 Richmond St, London, ON N6A 3C3 226-213-3314
Kitchener Coin 618 King St E, Kitchener, ON N2G 2M1 519-742-9181
Coins Unlimited 150 Thorold Rd, Welland, ON L3C 3V4 905-788-0376
A Coin & Collectibles House of Stamps Square One Shopping Centre, Mississauga, ON L5B 2C9 905-848-2646
Bullion Management Services Inc 60 Renfrew Dr, Markham, ON L3R 0E1 905-474-1001
Warning…..take delivery. Don’t store your physical with anyone
Spot market open
Those who bought already are making money. Opened at 14.51oz CAD
Don’t wait. Protect yourself
The IGAs require a W8-BEN-ish type document, and their country is allowed to determine what that is–as long as it has the same contents. Whereas some countries make you jump through hoops (like SwitzerlandI think some countries are going to bury it in their terms and conditions, for which you must click “I agree”. That’s the way they do it for the Bank Securities Act of 1933, which doesn’t allow any foreign institution to sell US securities to a US person.
Remember, the 30% economic sanctions go away when they sign the IGA.