397 thoughts on “The Canada United States FATCA Intergovernmental Agreement”
I only post this. ‘
Thanks to the IGA, Isaac Brock hits are threw the roof. 11,4661 with 1 and 1/2 hours to go. Previous record was 10,202. Not happy about this at all. Our popularity is due to the misery of Canadian citizens who are now being thrown under the bus.
@ Nick
I’m not good at these legalese things at all. I’m waiting for someone like Allison Christians to chime in. However, I did find this under the definitions part of the “agreement”:
ee) The term “U.S. Person” means
(1) a U.S. citizen or resident individual,
(2) a partnership or corporation organized in the United States or under the laws of the United States or any State thereof,
(3) a trust if
(A) a court within the United States would have authority under applicable law to render orders or judgments concerning substantially all issues regarding administration of the trust, and
(B) one or more U.S. persons have the authority to control all substantial decisions of the trust, or
(4) an estate of a decedent that is a citizen or resident of the United States.
This subparagraph 1(ee) shall be interpreted in accordance with the U.S. Internal Revenue Code.
Where did this “resident individual” thing come from? Resident where? Here or there? It’s as bad as the phrase “US citizen habitually resident in New Zealand” (even if “habitually resident” every single day of their life). I just want my own government, my own country, to define me as what I am. I am Canadian. And I want my own government, my own country, to tell the U.S. of A$$es to take their US personhood and shove it up their whatsits. And this part — “shall be interpreted in accordance with the U.S. Internal Revenue Code” — seems to be saying that Canada is not even allowed to define anything without approval from the USA. [insert bad word here] To me it means a complete sell-out of all IRS defined US persons.
We did not need certain select financial vehicles exempted from FATCA reporting; we needed Canada to show some courage and exempt all Canadian residents from IRS filing if they have no US source income.
I think it’s time for a good ol’ Rebel Hell Yeah!!!
~pissed off and betrayed.
@ The_Animal
Good work!
The_Animal says “…and if you’re NOT filing a Canadian tax return, then you’re disobeying Canadian law.”
Only one master at a time is the Animal’s rule.
I agree I only pay local protection money now that I renounced my U.S. citizenship and paid my exit tax.
Feel free for us to use it at our next FATCA protest. Perhaps we should protest out front of the US Consulate (at least for our next FATCA protest in Vancouver?).
Statelessman, I wish I had the balls to become “stateless” but that leaves me in a very tenuous position. If you’re stateless, do you have any protection at all?
I have no problem in paying my taxes to Canada and neither does my wife, because we use the roads, we use the services provided…etc, but when the US starts demanding “extortion money” for services that we have not used at all in the 14 years she’s been up here…then frankly, I will tell the US to pound sand.
@The_Animal being stateless is not that bad (been living it for a couple of years now), you get to pick your allegiances, they are not forced upon you.
@The_Animal I have the protection of the country I live in . . . I live in a country much like Canada, no one messes with me, we have the rule of law and I pay for it with my protection money.
Unfortunately, I don’t trust my own country after this IGA to protect my wife after they sold her and others like her down the river for 3 silver pieces. I figure that she’d better queue up for Canadian slave-hood which in all respects seems to be slightly better than American slave-hood.
I have to send something to YogaGirl. This website is so personal at least for those of us have been here for a year. Petros was so excellent today and I do not know what will happen tomorrow.
Hi all,
Well, looks like I just walked-in on what must have been quite the dangerous party and now all the booze is gone and the furniture is torn to pieces.
I’m still at work editing TV shows and I’m just way too exhausted for all this today. I want to kick and scream and cry and rage but it will just have to wait for now.
We knew this day was coming, but that didn’t make it any easier. Today, we are officially second-class citizens in our own country. But there will be no back of the bus for us. Instead, we’ve been forcefully thrown beneath it. I feel absolutely sick. I have no pride in any country anymore. I frankly have dwindling hopes for humanity itself.
I know that these feelings will somehow transform into more positive energies, with the help of all of you, but for now it is very hard. The cards are now out on the table and we have a monumental task ahead of us. I wish us all godspeed.
Concerning savings bonds and government owned institutions:
Someone wrote that one could hide from FATCA using Canada savings bonds.
A quick read of the IGA seems to indicate that the Bank of Canada is the only government owned institution still exempt, while the general FATCA requirements discussed up till now seemed to exempt all government owned institutions and departments.
Does the IGA represent a more restrictive approach? Savings bonds are issued by the Treasury, not by the Bank of Canada. Wouldn’t it be absurd if the Treasury had to report?
A lawyer from Épargne Placements Québec wrote to me a couple of months ago stating that they were definitely not subject to FATCA because they are a Québec government institution taking deposits only from residents of Québec. ( I should explain that their deposit accounts are all Quebec government debt instruments.) For Quebec residents, this could be a good place to find some perfectly legal discretion, if the IGA has not removed this refuge.
And there is also talk of Post Canada reviving postal savings accounts.
So I hope my first reading was wrong.
I’m sorry, I’m broke. I couldn’t buy booze…and anyways, my doctor says that I shouldn’t be mixing my antibiotics (for a damned throat infection I can’t seem to shake) and booze. ~sigh~ I could really use a stiff round of vodka right now.
@Petit Suisse
So, are you saying that CSB’s won’t work?
@Hdxlch, I’m so sorry you are caught in this. Especially for those like you who served in the military. It IS heartbreaking and I think the U.S. owes people like you a huge apology. They won’t give it to you so I will. I’m sorry, I apologize on behalf of every decent reasonable person. This should have never happened to you.
@ Petit Suisse
When I bought my Government of Canada bonds in advance of this, on the application form, I was asked to submit a Canadian SIN for Income Tax Purposes. That was it.
There are two types of Government of Canada bonds. Canada Savings Bonds and Canada Premium Bonds. Canada Savings Bonds are only sold through payroll deduction.
Canada Premium Bonds are sold by banks in October and November; they have an escalating interest rate and can be cashed at anytime. That is what I opted for. My reasoning being is that as long as my money is not in the computer at the bank, it won’t be reported.
There is a PDF here for Canada Premium Bonds Terms and Conditions.
As for who can own Canada Premium Bonds, it states:
At the time of purchase, bonds may be registered or recorded only in the names of bona fide residents of Canada.
Bonds may be registered in the name of:
• one individual in his/her own right, whether adult or minor; or,
• two or more individuals with right of survivorship.
“If there is any doubt whether a person is eligible to own bonds and how the bonds may be registered, the Minister of Finance has the right to make the final decision.”
Unless Flaherty changes the rules to say Americans can’t own Government of Canada bonds, it seems to be a loophole that we can exploit. Petit Suisse, I also do hope that your first reading of the IGA was wrong.
@Hdxlch and atticus,
Truly despicable. Lady Liberty cries in shame.
If the bank somehow figures out I am a so-called “US person” and they send my bank information to the IRS, I STILL will never file a US tax return nor an FBAR. If the IRS sends me a strongly worded letter, I will frame it.
@GwEvil
Exactly my stance as well! It’s just plain Wrong, Wrong, Wrong what the US Govt. is doing. I refuse to be complicit in any way whatsoever.
@Cerium398
Yes… I was aware of the Premium bond, and that will be my choice as well in October if things don’t change. Moreover they can be cashed at any time.
@GwEvil
That’s the exact approach I’m taking…I refuse to be intimidated into submitting information into a tax regime of a country which I have not lived in since the age of 10!
@hieronymus
Exactly…your money is still liquid, it’s just in another form. As a bonus, you can’t be refused by a Bank if you don’t have an account at that Bank; I looked this up myself. As long as you have the proper ID, they must cash it for you.
Granted, if you want immediate cash for a $10,000 certificate, you are not going to get it. That’s why I stuck to $1000 certificates.
The easiest and least costly way to get this information would be to pass ALL Canadian accounts to the US, who can then cross reference that database with theirs, flagging US citizens. If we dont see specific exclusions for passing ALL Cdn acct information, then that is the way they will go… (so far they say the information exchange will be determined later).
I too am dismayed and without words. I have also lost the belief in human decency. Expats are like hunted prey and there is no justice in their treatment.
I only post this. ‘
Thanks to the IGA, Isaac Brock hits are threw the roof. 11,4661 with 1 and 1/2 hours to go. Previous record was 10,202. Not happy about this at all. Our popularity is due to the misery of Canadian citizens who are now being thrown under the bus.
@ Nick
I’m not good at these legalese things at all. I’m waiting for someone like Allison Christians to chime in. However, I did find this under the definitions part of the “agreement”:
ee) The term “U.S. Person” means
(1) a U.S. citizen or resident individual,
(2) a partnership or corporation organized in the United States or under the laws of the United States or any State thereof,
(3) a trust if
(A) a court within the United States would have authority under applicable law to render orders or judgments concerning substantially all issues regarding administration of the trust, and
(B) one or more U.S. persons have the authority to control all substantial decisions of the trust, or
(4) an estate of a decedent that is a citizen or resident of the United States.
This subparagraph 1(ee) shall be interpreted in accordance with the U.S. Internal Revenue Code.
Where did this “resident individual” thing come from? Resident where? Here or there? It’s as bad as the phrase “US citizen habitually resident in New Zealand” (even if “habitually resident” every single day of their life). I just want my own government, my own country, to define me as what I am. I am Canadian. And I want my own government, my own country, to tell the U.S. of A$$es to take their US personhood and shove it up their whatsits. And this part — “shall be interpreted in accordance with the U.S. Internal Revenue Code” — seems to be saying that Canada is not even allowed to define anything without approval from the USA. [insert bad word here] To me it means a complete sell-out of all IRS defined US persons.
We did not need certain select financial vehicles exempted from FATCA reporting; we needed Canada to show some courage and exempt all Canadian residents from IRS filing if they have no US source income.
I think it’s time for a good ol’ Rebel Hell Yeah!!!
~pissed off and betrayed.
@ The_Animal
Good work!
The_Animal says “…and if you’re NOT filing a Canadian tax return, then you’re disobeying Canadian law.”
Only one master at a time is the Animal’s rule.
I agree I only pay local protection money now that I renounced my U.S. citizenship and paid my exit tax.
Feel free for us to use it at our next FATCA protest. Perhaps we should protest out front of the US Consulate (at least for our next FATCA protest in Vancouver?).
Statelessman, I wish I had the balls to become “stateless” but that leaves me in a very tenuous position. If you’re stateless, do you have any protection at all?
I have no problem in paying my taxes to Canada and neither does my wife, because we use the roads, we use the services provided…etc, but when the US starts demanding “extortion money” for services that we have not used at all in the 14 years she’s been up here…then frankly, I will tell the US to pound sand.
@The_Animal being stateless is not that bad (been living it for a couple of years now), you get to pick your allegiances, they are not forced upon you.
@The_Animal I have the protection of the country I live in . . . I live in a country much like Canada, no one messes with me, we have the rule of law and I pay for it with my protection money.
Unfortunately, I don’t trust my own country after this IGA to protect my wife after they sold her and others like her down the river for 3 silver pieces. I figure that she’d better queue up for Canadian slave-hood which in all respects seems to be slightly better than American slave-hood.
I have to send something to YogaGirl. This website is so personal at least for those of us have been here for a year. Petros was so excellent today and I do not know what will happen tomorrow.
Hi all,
Well, looks like I just walked-in on what must have been quite the dangerous party and now all the booze is gone and the furniture is torn to pieces.
I’m still at work editing TV shows and I’m just way too exhausted for all this today. I want to kick and scream and cry and rage but it will just have to wait for now.
We knew this day was coming, but that didn’t make it any easier. Today, we are officially second-class citizens in our own country. But there will be no back of the bus for us. Instead, we’ve been forcefully thrown beneath it. I feel absolutely sick. I have no pride in any country anymore. I frankly have dwindling hopes for humanity itself.
I know that these feelings will somehow transform into more positive energies, with the help of all of you, but for now it is very hard. The cards are now out on the table and we have a monumental task ahead of us. I wish us all godspeed.
Concerning savings bonds and government owned institutions:
Someone wrote that one could hide from FATCA using Canada savings bonds.
A quick read of the IGA seems to indicate that the Bank of Canada is the only government owned institution still exempt, while the general FATCA requirements discussed up till now seemed to exempt all government owned institutions and departments.
Does the IGA represent a more restrictive approach? Savings bonds are issued by the Treasury, not by the Bank of Canada. Wouldn’t it be absurd if the Treasury had to report?
A lawyer from Épargne Placements Québec wrote to me a couple of months ago stating that they were definitely not subject to FATCA because they are a Québec government institution taking deposits only from residents of Québec. ( I should explain that their deposit accounts are all Quebec government debt instruments.) For Quebec residents, this could be a good place to find some perfectly legal discretion, if the IGA has not removed this refuge.
And there is also talk of Post Canada reviving postal savings accounts.
So I hope my first reading was wrong.
I’m sorry, I’m broke. I couldn’t buy booze…and anyways, my doctor says that I shouldn’t be mixing my antibiotics (for a damned throat infection I can’t seem to shake) and booze. ~sigh~ I could really use a stiff round of vodka right now.
@Petit Suisse
So, are you saying that CSB’s won’t work?
@Hdxlch, I’m so sorry you are caught in this. Especially for those like you who served in the military. It IS heartbreaking and I think the U.S. owes people like you a huge apology. They won’t give it to you so I will. I’m sorry, I apologize on behalf of every decent reasonable person. This should have never happened to you.
@ Petit Suisse
When I bought my Government of Canada bonds in advance of this, on the application form, I was asked to submit a Canadian SIN for Income Tax Purposes. That was it.
There are two types of Government of Canada bonds. Canada Savings Bonds and Canada Premium Bonds. Canada Savings Bonds are only sold through payroll deduction.
Canada Premium Bonds are sold by banks in October and November; they have an escalating interest rate and can be cashed at anytime. That is what I opted for. My reasoning being is that as long as my money is not in the computer at the bank, it won’t be reported.
@ All
http://www.csb.gc.ca/terms-and-conditions-declaration-of-trust/
There is a PDF here for Canada Premium Bonds Terms and Conditions.
As for who can own Canada Premium Bonds, it states:
At the time of purchase, bonds may be registered or recorded only in the names of bona fide residents of Canada.
Bonds may be registered in the name of:
• one individual in his/her own right, whether adult or minor; or,
• two or more individuals with right of survivorship.
“If there is any doubt whether a person is eligible to own bonds and how the bonds may be registered, the Minister of Finance has the right to make the final decision.”
Unless Flaherty changes the rules to say Americans can’t own Government of Canada bonds, it seems to be a loophole that we can exploit. Petit Suisse, I also do hope that your first reading of the IGA was wrong.
@Hdxlch and atticus,
Truly despicable. Lady Liberty cries in shame.
If the bank somehow figures out I am a so-called “US person” and they send my bank information to the IRS, I STILL will never file a US tax return nor an FBAR. If the IRS sends me a strongly worded letter, I will frame it.
@GwEvil
Exactly my stance as well! It’s just plain Wrong, Wrong, Wrong what the US Govt. is doing. I refuse to be complicit in any way whatsoever.
@Cerium398
Yes… I was aware of the Premium bond, and that will be my choice as well in October if things don’t change. Moreover they can be cashed at any time.
@GwEvil
That’s the exact approach I’m taking…I refuse to be intimidated into submitting information into a tax regime of a country which I have not lived in since the age of 10!
@hieronymus
Exactly…your money is still liquid, it’s just in another form. As a bonus, you can’t be refused by a Bank if you don’t have an account at that Bank; I looked this up myself. As long as you have the proper ID, they must cash it for you.
Granted, if you want immediate cash for a $10,000 certificate, you are not going to get it. That’s why I stuck to $1000 certificates.
The easiest and least costly way to get this information would be to pass ALL Canadian accounts to the US, who can then cross reference that database with theirs, flagging US citizens. If we dont see specific exclusions for passing ALL Cdn acct information, then that is the way they will go… (so far they say the information exchange will be determined later).
I too am dismayed and without words. I have also lost the belief in human decency. Expats are like hunted prey and there is no justice in their treatment.