397 thoughts on “The Canada United States FATCA Intergovernmental Agreement”
Hdxlch, I feel for you. But transfer that “Semper Fi” code, Marine, to your fellow expats, some of whom are ex-servicemen who are suffering the same mental anguish. Yes, it does mean that everyone is now out for themselves, but at the very least, we should as a community band together. I don’t know how we’ll get through it, other than hope at the very least that we somehow make it through with minimal damage and casualties on our part.
CBE, I’ve known about the OVDP. What I’m telling you is to ignore the OVDP part of it and read what I’m telling you to. The $10,000 cap on savings before reporting kicks in. Did that part not sink in?
@ChearsBigEars
The only thing many of us “did” wrong was exit the birth canal on the American side of the border.
My parents were Canadians living in the US on work visas at the time of my birth….my family left the US when I was 10. I have never lived there since and have no intention to.
If I had known the implications of CBT, I would have renounced my citizenship on my 18th birthday. I, like many others, had no idea; now we are all caught in a Catch 22.
@The_Animal
I see what you are saying, but if the bank is not reporting you via FATCA due to aggregate balances less than $50,000, why would any reasonable person out himself by filling out an FBAR when they pass the $10,000 threshold?
The IRS has no way of enforcing FBAR penalties in Canada even if they do catch you out. To be caught out you would have to do something really stupid, like renew your US Passport (as you are required to submit a US Taxpayer ID Number with the application).
@all Lets over the course of the next few days, weeks, decipher the Surrender Treaty Flaherty made with the devils. I do have problems with this legalese. Like exactly how much money can we have in accounts, each, together, What?
AtticusinCanada…I know I feel the same way..But you have friends at Brock in the same boat. ..
@hdlxch…stay we need you…Marines are tough and so are Canadians.
I feel like someone who has been told they have terminal cancer. I know two people personally, My beloved love of my life and my beloved younger son. They did not give up but they found they could laugh together and plan for the next decade, f it came or not. They cried but they laughed And you know we all go where they went someday.. So do what you feel is right for yourself.
Try not to have too much hate. It is a heavy load to bear
“Written on the FinCEN Form 114” – This form should be used to report a financial interest in, signature authority, or other authority over one or more financial accounts in foreign countries, as required by
the Department of the Treasury Regulations 31 CFR 1010.350 . No report is required if the aggregate value of the accounts did not exceed $10,000.
So… CBE… does that tell you why I’m so pissed off whenever someone quite blase’ly states that the account is safe if you get the amount under $50,000?
@Hdxlch
I am a vet as well so renouncing was emotionally very difficult.
However, I eventually came to the realization that what America is doing to its expats today is worse than what the British had done to its expats (Americans) over 200 years ago.
So I mustered up the determination to renounce and just did it. I desparately needed to be free, its in my DNA.
When I walked out of the embassy, it felt like 1,000 kgs had just been taken off my shoulders.
Either way, Cerium, you’re still stuck to a life-savings of less than $50,000.00 then, until such time as you are financially capable of renouncing.
@atticusincanada “I feel no loyalty frankly anymore to Canada or the U.S. Canada just sold me down the river and the U.S. calls me a criminal. From now on I’m out for me and my family and nothing more. The idea of citizenship loyalty now sickens me.”
I know the feeling.
Does anyone know if ATB financial is a non-reporting/exempt institution?
@The_Animal
No I understood it that way years ago when I filed my TDFs. and filed accordingly. I am wondering what you think about a mass exodus from Canadian banks to teach Harper and our economy a lesson…by switching that toilet paper Canadian dollar for Gold. Do you get it?
We can affect the economy by doing this and this is what we should do for what they just did to us. Spread the word, Some gold, whether it goes up or down in price, is better than money in the banks. Of course make sure you have cash nearby as well to spend but if one has gold they can easily cash it in if they need cash. PEOPLE, SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE, STOP BELIEVING AND USING TRANSNATIONAL BANKS. They are our enemy.
Based on how the treaty is written, I could open up a TFSA and stack it with Mutual Funds to generate higher returns; the IRS can kiss my ass, as the Canadian Bank would not be reporting on it as it is not eligible to be reported.
So what if the IRS considers them to be Income Trusts and PFICs, respectively? – I don’t give a damn about any of that! I am a Canadian citizen and I am entitled to invest in this product. No way would I be self-reporting that to the IRS! Why would I??
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t like the thought of an IGA like the rest of you. I think the exemption for the registered plans was an important piece that Flaherty fought for.
[quote]I see what you are saying, but if the bank is not reporting you via FATCA due to aggregate balances less than $50,000, why would any reasonable person out himself by filling out an FBAR when they pass the $10,000 threshold?[/quote]
My question to you, Cerium, is what the hell happens when the IRS sees your account balances after seeing a tax return…and correlating the interest earned based on a <$10,000 account and then finding out that it doesn't match up? There will be serious questions asked. After all, Canada has just said that they would pass over via the CRA the tax records of all Canadian duals and landed immigrants.
And although I'm not in that situation considering that my bank account barely breaks $1,200.00 a month which promptly goes away thanks to several pairs of hands sticking out their hands for their share, I usually end up with zero savings, I would be very wary as to what actions I take which could potentially be actionable in the future.
@The Animal
Yes; up to $50,000 in non-registered deposits, plus what you can put in an RRSP or TFSA (as those are not FATCA reportable).
There is also the option of hiding your savings in Canada Premium Bonds; as a Canadian citizen, you are eligible to own up to $500,000 in Government of Canada debt. And you can also go the gold route as ChearsBigEars has mentioned.
@Animal
I think its a choice between paying 450 now or paying a lot more later, not to mention all the nerves lost in the process.
If you are able to relinquish, then you can save paying the 450 beans.
I personally, as my right as a first Nations Aboriginal, can take the matter of breach of trust and privacy into “Native” court. If my rights are compromised, Mr. harper, just watch me. I won’t be alone either. Many Natives will follow…… This IGA is simply about money. I have never in my life, seen a government hand over the rights of the people that Canada claims to protect. To anyone interested in immigrating to Canada, they need to see this for what it is and realize that the Canadian government will not protect them against the government of the country they left to come to Canada. this is living proof.
Gold unfortunately is a commodity and subject to fluctuations on the open market. And frankly it’s only worth as much as someone will buy it for. You some sort of prepper or something? I’ll tell you one thing, when it comes down to it, if the financial markets crash thanks to everyone buying up gold and eschewing banks, that rock won’t be worth anything. A lump of gold isn’t going to feed my family unless it’s backed up by legal tender (which means an assigned value).
Then we’ll all end up back on the “barter” system of payment.
@The Animal
“My question to you, Cerium, is what the hell happens when the IRS sees your account balances after seeing a tax return…and correlating the interest earned based on a <$10,000 account and then finding out that it doesn't match up? There will be serious questions asked. After all, Canada has just said that they would pass over via the CRA the tax records of all Canadian duals and landed immigrants. "
True, but who says the IRS will see a tax return? I haven't filed a US tax return before, and I am not about to start.
The way I see it, as long as I am not flagged by my bank (there is no US Indica on my customer file), so that the bank passes off my account info to the CRA;
and I keep my balances under the thresholds which would require the Bank to ascertain if I am a US Person;
and I don't out myself to the IRS via filing a return, or an FBAR, or renewing a US Passport, I can fly under the radar.
You don’t think they’ll be checking Canadian tax records to see if everything correlates?
…and if you’re NOT filing a Canadian tax return, then you’re disobeying Canadian law.
@northernstar July 1, 2013 at 5:07 pm ‘I go for my relinquishment in Toronto on July 15th…I will as for it to be backdated to 1993 when I became a Canadian Citizen. I will let you all know how it went.’
How did it go? ours is a similar situation- Nov-1994 pled allegiance to the Queen. Can one ‘Relinquish’ by writing to DOS? or must one go to an Embassy- 8 hr drive through mountain passes for us!
If the CRA (Canada) will not collect penalties on behalf of the IRS, why not just avoid ever setting foot in the US again?
@The_Animal
Read my post more carefully! I referred to never filing a US Tax Return; I file Canadian taxes!
Who has the job of screening for the US Persons? The banks; unless you are suggesting that now the CRA will include on your T1 a section where I must self-certify if I am an American. But that is not what is happening here! The onus is on the Banks to identify and report.
I’m going to live up to my name and get drunk tonight
Hdxlch, I feel for you. But transfer that “Semper Fi” code, Marine, to your fellow expats, some of whom are ex-servicemen who are suffering the same mental anguish. Yes, it does mean that everyone is now out for themselves, but at the very least, we should as a community band together. I don’t know how we’ll get through it, other than hope at the very least that we somehow make it through with minimal damage and casualties on our part.
CBE, I’ve known about the OVDP. What I’m telling you is to ignore the OVDP part of it and read what I’m telling you to. The $10,000 cap on savings before reporting kicks in. Did that part not sink in?
@ChearsBigEars
The only thing many of us “did” wrong was exit the birth canal on the American side of the border.
My parents were Canadians living in the US on work visas at the time of my birth….my family left the US when I was 10. I have never lived there since and have no intention to.
If I had known the implications of CBT, I would have renounced my citizenship on my 18th birthday. I, like many others, had no idea; now we are all caught in a Catch 22.
@The_Animal
I see what you are saying, but if the bank is not reporting you via FATCA due to aggregate balances less than $50,000, why would any reasonable person out himself by filling out an FBAR when they pass the $10,000 threshold?
The IRS has no way of enforcing FBAR penalties in Canada even if they do catch you out. To be caught out you would have to do something really stupid, like renew your US Passport (as you are required to submit a US Taxpayer ID Number with the application).
@all Lets over the course of the next few days, weeks, decipher the Surrender Treaty Flaherty made with the devils. I do have problems with this legalese. Like exactly how much money can we have in accounts, each, together, What?
AtticusinCanada…I know I feel the same way..But you have friends at Brock in the same boat. ..
@hdlxch…stay we need you…Marines are tough and so are Canadians.
I feel like someone who has been told they have terminal cancer. I know two people personally, My beloved love of my life and my beloved younger son. They did not give up but they found they could laugh together and plan for the next decade, f it came or not. They cried but they laughed And you know we all go where they went someday.. So do what you feel is right for yourself.
Try not to have too much hate. It is a heavy load to bear
“Written on the FinCEN Form 114” – This form should be used to report a financial interest in, signature authority, or other authority over one or more financial accounts in foreign countries, as required by
the Department of the Treasury Regulations 31 CFR 1010.350 . No report is required if the aggregate value of the accounts did not exceed $10,000.
So… CBE… does that tell you why I’m so pissed off whenever someone quite blase’ly states that the account is safe if you get the amount under $50,000?
@Hdxlch
I am a vet as well so renouncing was emotionally very difficult.
However, I eventually came to the realization that what America is doing to its expats today is worse than what the British had done to its expats (Americans) over 200 years ago.
So I mustered up the determination to renounce and just did it. I desparately needed to be free, its in my DNA.
When I walked out of the embassy, it felt like 1,000 kgs had just been taken off my shoulders.
Either way, Cerium, you’re still stuck to a life-savings of less than $50,000.00 then, until such time as you are financially capable of renouncing.
@atticusincanada “I feel no loyalty frankly anymore to Canada or the U.S. Canada just sold me down the river and the U.S. calls me a criminal. From now on I’m out for me and my family and nothing more. The idea of citizenship loyalty now sickens me.”
I know the feeling.
Does anyone know if ATB financial is a non-reporting/exempt institution?
@The_Animal
No I understood it that way years ago when I filed my TDFs. and filed accordingly. I am wondering what you think about a mass exodus from Canadian banks to teach Harper and our economy a lesson…by switching that toilet paper Canadian dollar for Gold. Do you get it?
We can affect the economy by doing this and this is what we should do for what they just did to us. Spread the word, Some gold, whether it goes up or down in price, is better than money in the banks. Of course make sure you have cash nearby as well to spend but if one has gold they can easily cash it in if they need cash. PEOPLE, SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE, STOP BELIEVING AND USING TRANSNATIONAL BANKS. They are our enemy.
Based on how the treaty is written, I could open up a TFSA and stack it with Mutual Funds to generate higher returns; the IRS can kiss my ass, as the Canadian Bank would not be reporting on it as it is not eligible to be reported.
So what if the IRS considers them to be Income Trusts and PFICs, respectively? – I don’t give a damn about any of that! I am a Canadian citizen and I am entitled to invest in this product. No way would I be self-reporting that to the IRS! Why would I??
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t like the thought of an IGA like the rest of you. I think the exemption for the registered plans was an important piece that Flaherty fought for.
@nomad……
NO, do not trust ATB
https://www.atb.com/about/Pages/our-business.aspx
Trust gold
[quote]I see what you are saying, but if the bank is not reporting you via FATCA due to aggregate balances less than $50,000, why would any reasonable person out himself by filling out an FBAR when they pass the $10,000 threshold?[/quote]
My question to you, Cerium, is what the hell happens when the IRS sees your account balances after seeing a tax return…and correlating the interest earned based on a <$10,000 account and then finding out that it doesn't match up? There will be serious questions asked. After all, Canada has just said that they would pass over via the CRA the tax records of all Canadian duals and landed immigrants.
And although I'm not in that situation considering that my bank account barely breaks $1,200.00 a month which promptly goes away thanks to several pairs of hands sticking out their hands for their share, I usually end up with zero savings, I would be very wary as to what actions I take which could potentially be actionable in the future.
@The Animal
Yes; up to $50,000 in non-registered deposits, plus what you can put in an RRSP or TFSA (as those are not FATCA reportable).
There is also the option of hiding your savings in Canada Premium Bonds; as a Canadian citizen, you are eligible to own up to $500,000 in Government of Canada debt. And you can also go the gold route as ChearsBigEars has mentioned.
@Animal
I think its a choice between paying 450 now or paying a lot more later, not to mention all the nerves lost in the process.
If you are able to relinquish, then you can save paying the 450 beans.
I personally, as my right as a first Nations Aboriginal, can take the matter of breach of trust and privacy into “Native” court. If my rights are compromised, Mr. harper, just watch me. I won’t be alone either. Many Natives will follow…… This IGA is simply about money. I have never in my life, seen a government hand over the rights of the people that Canada claims to protect. To anyone interested in immigrating to Canada, they need to see this for what it is and realize that the Canadian government will not protect them against the government of the country they left to come to Canada. this is living proof.
Gold unfortunately is a commodity and subject to fluctuations on the open market. And frankly it’s only worth as much as someone will buy it for. You some sort of prepper or something? I’ll tell you one thing, when it comes down to it, if the financial markets crash thanks to everyone buying up gold and eschewing banks, that rock won’t be worth anything. A lump of gold isn’t going to feed my family unless it’s backed up by legal tender (which means an assigned value).
Then we’ll all end up back on the “barter” system of payment.
@The Animal
“My question to you, Cerium, is what the hell happens when the IRS sees your account balances after seeing a tax return…and correlating the interest earned based on a <$10,000 account and then finding out that it doesn't match up? There will be serious questions asked. After all, Canada has just said that they would pass over via the CRA the tax records of all Canadian duals and landed immigrants. "
True, but who says the IRS will see a tax return? I haven't filed a US tax return before, and I am not about to start.
The way I see it, as long as I am not flagged by my bank (there is no US Indica on my customer file), so that the bank passes off my account info to the CRA;
and I keep my balances under the thresholds which would require the Bank to ascertain if I am a US Person;
and I don't out myself to the IRS via filing a return, or an FBAR, or renewing a US Passport, I can fly under the radar.
You don’t think they’ll be checking Canadian tax records to see if everything correlates?
…and if you’re NOT filing a Canadian tax return, then you’re disobeying Canadian law.
@northernstar July 1, 2013 at 5:07 pm ‘I go for my relinquishment in Toronto on July 15th…I will as for it to be backdated to 1993 when I became a Canadian Citizen. I will let you all know how it went.’
How did it go? ours is a similar situation- Nov-1994 pled allegiance to the Queen. Can one ‘Relinquish’ by writing to DOS? or must one go to an Embassy- 8 hr drive through mountain passes for us!
If the CRA (Canada) will not collect penalties on behalf of the IRS, why not just avoid ever setting foot in the US again?
@The_Animal
Read my post more carefully! I referred to never filing a US Tax Return; I file Canadian taxes!
Who has the job of screening for the US Persons? The banks; unless you are suggesting that now the CRA will include on your T1 a section where I must self-certify if I am an American. But that is not what is happening here! The onus is on the Banks to identify and report.
I’m going to live up to my name and get drunk tonight
Anything to dull the pain..