397 thoughts on “The Canada United States FATCA Intergovernmental Agreement”
As much as it pains me to say all of this, I’m going to have to say it: This Harper government is about as scummy as one can get.
By signing on to FATCA, he has basically thrown ALL Canada/US duals under the bus. This disgusts me more than the fact that I already knew I’d be thrown to the wolves, being just a US citizen/Canada PR and all….. (but I was expecting that)
….but not just duals, every 100% Canadian that happens to be married to an American has just been thrown under that same bus, too.
From what I’ve read on the above link, the Harper Government is not done. After the audacity of signing up for FATCA, he’s going to want me to wait yet another year before I get to pledge loyalty to a government that has clearly already backstabbed some of its own people. The reasoning for this? To teach us the value of citizenship. Unbelievable! Where does a government get off by backstabbing some of its own citizens, and then lectures to me the value of ‘citizenship’?
Oh, and ‘dual citizenship’ will be looked at as dual tiered citizenship by the Harper government. They want to revoke the citizenships of those whom they believe may be linked to ‘terr’ism’. I guess that really could be anyone that speaks out against the Harper Government if it is taken to it’s illogical, yet totally predictable conclusion.
I’m beginning to believe that outside of the US plantation, there is an empty void where there once was promise. How much longer will it be before I’ll be completely hamstrung from the ability to keep my spouse safe from EITHER government? I have already done all I can.
I know one thing is for sure, as long as the Harper Government is in power, I will NEVER swear an oath of allegiance to them. Now, it seems that I don’t have a lot of options other than to consider the painful prospect of heading back.
Up to about a week ago, I felt strong in spirit, and sure of my convictions. Given the events of the past couple of days, it now seems as though nothing even matters anymore. I truly feel damned by everyone. She knows what’s going on. She knows how deeply troubled I am over these recent events and she is also quite upset with her government as well. We’re going to have a lot of issues to discuss, and a lot of hard choices will need to be made.
All I know right now is that, as unhappy as I am with the US, my wife and I are now even more unhappy with Canada.
May later days give us the clarity of mind that we desperately need in this dark hour.
8^(
@Animal,
Unfortunatley, complicated Citizenship cases can take 40 months. (I know from personal exprience, very recent personal experience. Run, run to get the paperwork started. and best of Luck!!
@ Marge, Will do, as soon as possible which is hopefully in my books by this month, we will be able to free up enough $$$ to get the ball rolling – in which case will be a waiting game of lay low and hope to hell that they don’t find us in the interim. I hate to get put right in the cross-hairs of the IRS and I’ll take every available precaution to prevent that from happening. Other than that, all that my family can do is to continue to live our lives. I can’t afford to freeze as a result of the stress inflicted.
@Fifi Today is Privacy and Security Day in our fair province of British Columbia. Boy…that must come with a full cup of irony after what happened yesterday. I guess BC just has to kick us when we’re down.
I don’t want to contribute anything that might be deemed positive about this agreement, but I would like to add a few comments that might provide some comfort. Please note: I am not an expert in this field; we need to have some expert commentary, and that will require some days or months.
First, the IGA may not be the worst possible outcome, but it the worst that can actually happen. With resistance, terms might be improved; class action suits get action; the Privacy Commissioner may intervene.
And what do we have that is ok?
1. It appears that all tax-free accounts in Canada will not be treated as “US reportable accounts”. (See p. 45 of Agreement.)
2. Accounts under $50K are exempt
3. Accounts more than $50K and less than $1 million will be subject to automated review, looking for US indicia. Most financial institutions have not heretofore asked for place of birth, certainly not banks. If they don’t have the data, then they can’t report it. That’s the situation at present.
4. For accounts over $1 million, there a paper search is required and possibly interview with a relationship manager. Good luck to anyone in this situation. Won’t ever apply to me.
There are plenty of reasons to object to FATCA and the IGA; I just hope these facts (if I am right) might allow a few people to breathe more easily.
@All
I don’t know if this is on Brock yet.
FBARs are not a tax form, however.
On my commute every morning I walk through Trafalgar Square in London, and right past the front of Canada House, the High Commission of Canada in the UK. I always allow myself just a little private fist-pump when passing. Guess I should stop with that now. And I’m sorry, Canada, that my own stupid lapdog govt led the way on FATCA IGAs. If the UK had more backbone the outcomes might have been different.
@mjh49783, if it’s any consolation, the oath of Canadian citizenship (when I took it quite some time ago) requires one to swear allegiance to the Queen (or perhaps just to Canada now), not to the current government. With any luck the Conservatives may not be the government after the next federal election.
@AnonAnon
Then the most important question on my mind, and perhaps in many Canadian’s minds here is: Will Canada actually stand for her own? I’m sure that without a doubt, there are plenty of people here that are willing to sue the Harper government to rightfully demand protection from the US government as Canadians. Nevertheless, I can already see from the actions of the Conservatives that, some Canadians matter, and some just don’t. Is this really the direction that Canada needs to go?
Well, if they decide to vote in the Conservatives again in 2015, then I guess I’ll have my answer, and then I’ll be out of here for sure. It’s one thing to be shit on by your own government, but it’s another thing to watch another government shit on it’s own people. Especially so if they’re in any way connected with the shittiness of the US government, and all of it for the sake of the Harper government wanting to be some ass kissing toady to the US. I just cannot respect a toady.
Treating the Canadian registered accounts as “non-reportable” only gets the banks off the hook, not the taxpayers. Taxpayers still need to report every bank account, registered or not, and pay the full tax pop to the IRS, basically making these accounts totally useless for certain Canadians.
At the very least it pushes many below the threshold and do not have to worry about the IRS finding out they exist.
@NorthernShrike
As it turns out the exemptions will place me below the $50,000 threshold for foreseeable future… Don;t have to worry about a knock at the door.
@AnonAnon
When I swore the oath in 2008, it was still to the Queen.
This appears to be the FATCA enacting legislation. Note closing date for comments to Department of Finance – March 10
FATCA enacting legislation
An Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States for the enhanced exchange of tax information under the Canada-United States Tax Convention was signed on February 5, 2014, in Ottawa.
The IGA will enter into force once Canada has notified the United States that the procedures required by Canadian law for the bringing into force of the IGA have been completed. It is proposed that the IGA have effect as of July 1, 2014.
Detailed draft legislative proposals and accompanying explanatory notes in respect of changes to the Income Tax Act to implement the IGA are attached.
Comments on the legislative proposals can be submitted to the Department of Finance at IGA-AIG@fin.gc.ca or to the address below. The closing date for comments is March 10, 2014.
Tax Policy Branch
Department of Finance
140 O’Connor Street
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0G5
Intergovernmental Agreement for the Enhanced Exchange of Tax Information under the Canada-U.S. Tax Convention (to see agreement already posted on Brock site)
Canada and U.S. Reach Agreement on Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (News Release 2014-018)
Legislative Proposals and Explanatory Notes Relating to the Canada-United States Enhanced Tax Information Exchange Agreement (click on this or go directly to)
I see that existing accounts are to be reviewed as of 30th June 2014 and reporting will be required for 2014 if the account is over $50,000 and there is indication of US Indicia (i.e. US birthplace).
If someone has renounced in 2014 prior to 30th June, does this mean their existing account data will still be reported for 2014? I would hope that production of a CLN showing non-US citizenship on 30th June 2014 would result in no possibility of being reported even for 2014?
I plan to renounce prior to the start date and am currently over the threshold. Will I be safe?
If the IGA carves out the FATCA reporting of RRSP’s, RDSP’s, RESP’s, TFSA’s etc, and US persons are still required to report those things to the IRS, isn’t the IGA actually encouraging non-compliance? I can’t see how the US agreed to this.
@Hogwarth,
“I see that existing accounts are to be reviewed as of 30th June 2014 and reporting will be required for 2014 if the account is over $50,000 and there is indication of US Indicia (i.e. US birthplace).”
This reporting will have to be for all account holders, no matter their citizenship — Canadians included. Plus, what enforcement mechanism will be implemented. Will people be fined for lying to a bank? Will everybody have to have a passport to open or continue having a bank account, to prove where their birth place is or isnt?
If I was going to open a new account I’d tell them I don’t have a passport. Not everyone does, so how can they insist? I can open an account with a driver’s license and my Canadian citizenship card.
I opened up an account today in a credit union with a driver’s license and a credit card.
All banks and credit unions require a SIN card for interest bearing or chequing accounts. It’s not legally required, they say, but they do insist on their right to refuse service…
So if they don’t need it, you can put in any number you want, as they will have no occasion to use it for anything and won’t ever find out if its real or not.
New account – plus of course the Social Insurance Number.
I would not use the Canadian citizenship card if at all possible. My Certificate of Canadian Citizenship has the year I became a citizen. The next question could then be “Where were you born?”, a topic I have no desire to discuss.
GwEvil says
February 6, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Regarding the SIN they have been insisting on it for new accounts for several years now — with a photocopy accompanied by original. If not, you are simply refused a new account. It isnt a leap to realise for this new disclosure reporting they will do the same for passports, or some other id which gives them the required info they’re seeking. And this doesnt even cover the spouses or offspring or investments of targeted people — in which cases, they’ll have to delve alot deeper into your personal life…
I just find it hard to believe the authorities will dump all this data mining on the banks, the front end, where data collection will be sloppy and unreliable. The real gold mine of data is with the Cdn govt which has the most accurate info the IRS needs to cross check their data bases.
My citizenship card just has the date of issue. I have been a Canadian since birth and just decided to apply for the card lately as its easier to tote around than my registration of Canadian birth abroad.
@All
Listen to what Voyons said:
“I opened up an account today in a credit union with a driver’s license and a credit card.”
You generally need two pieces of ID to open a bank account. One should be photo ID, like your Driver’s License (or Photo Card if you don’t drive).
The second piece could be a debit card, credit card, or Employee ID card from a well known company.
You only have to give your SIN out if it is an interest bearing account. SIN is not required for chequing accounts. The only reason they could refuse to open an account is if you do not have two pieces of ID.
You can even open an account with just a Driver’s License, PROVIDED you get a client of that bank branch who is well known, that also knows you, to vouch for your identity.
The requirements to open an account is listed on all the major banks websites. ID is segmented into either Section A or Section B. You need either two pieces of Section A or one piece Section A and B to open the account.
Driver’s License is Section A. Debit card, credit card, employee ID card is considered Section B.
Different banks have different requirements. At CIBC, a US Passport is considered Section A. At BMO, a foreign passport is Section B.
I’ve worked in banking, I know what I’m talking about.
As much as it pains me to say all of this, I’m going to have to say it: This Harper government is about as scummy as one can get.
By signing on to FATCA, he has basically thrown ALL Canada/US duals under the bus. This disgusts me more than the fact that I already knew I’d be thrown to the wolves, being just a US citizen/Canada PR and all….. (but I was expecting that)
….but not just duals, every 100% Canadian that happens to be married to an American has just been thrown under that same bus, too.
And it gets worse….
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-citizenship-revamp-to-lengthen-permanent-residents-waiting-period/article16723176/comments/
From what I’ve read on the above link, the Harper Government is not done. After the audacity of signing up for FATCA, he’s going to want me to wait yet another year before I get to pledge loyalty to a government that has clearly already backstabbed some of its own people. The reasoning for this? To teach us the value of citizenship. Unbelievable! Where does a government get off by backstabbing some of its own citizens, and then lectures to me the value of ‘citizenship’?
Oh, and ‘dual citizenship’ will be looked at as dual tiered citizenship by the Harper government. They want to revoke the citizenships of those whom they believe may be linked to ‘terr’ism’. I guess that really could be anyone that speaks out against the Harper Government if it is taken to it’s illogical, yet totally predictable conclusion.
I’m beginning to believe that outside of the US plantation, there is an empty void where there once was promise. How much longer will it be before I’ll be completely hamstrung from the ability to keep my spouse safe from EITHER government? I have already done all I can.
I know one thing is for sure, as long as the Harper Government is in power, I will NEVER swear an oath of allegiance to them. Now, it seems that I don’t have a lot of options other than to consider the painful prospect of heading back.
Up to about a week ago, I felt strong in spirit, and sure of my convictions. Given the events of the past couple of days, it now seems as though nothing even matters anymore. I truly feel damned by everyone. She knows what’s going on. She knows how deeply troubled I am over these recent events and she is also quite upset with her government as well. We’re going to have a lot of issues to discuss, and a lot of hard choices will need to be made.
All I know right now is that, as unhappy as I am with the US, my wife and I are now even more unhappy with Canada.
May later days give us the clarity of mind that we desperately need in this dark hour.
8^(
@Animal,
Unfortunatley, complicated Citizenship cases can take 40 months. (I know from personal exprience, very recent personal experience. Run, run to get the paperwork started. and best of Luck!!
@ Marge, Will do, as soon as possible which is hopefully in my books by this month, we will be able to free up enough $$$ to get the ball rolling – in which case will be a waiting game of lay low and hope to hell that they don’t find us in the interim. I hate to get put right in the cross-hairs of the IRS and I’ll take every available precaution to prevent that from happening. Other than that, all that my family can do is to continue to live our lives. I can’t afford to freeze as a result of the stress inflicted.
@Fifi Today is Privacy and Security Day in our fair province of British Columbia. Boy…that must come with a full cup of irony after what happened yesterday. I guess BC just has to kick us when we’re down.
I don’t want to contribute anything that might be deemed positive about this agreement, but I would like to add a few comments that might provide some comfort. Please note: I am not an expert in this field; we need to have some expert commentary, and that will require some days or months.
First, the IGA may not be the worst possible outcome, but it the worst that can actually happen. With resistance, terms might be improved; class action suits get action; the Privacy Commissioner may intervene.
And what do we have that is ok?
1. It appears that all tax-free accounts in Canada will not be treated as “US reportable accounts”. (See p. 45 of Agreement.)
2. Accounts under $50K are exempt
3. Accounts more than $50K and less than $1 million will be subject to automated review, looking for US indicia. Most financial institutions have not heretofore asked for place of birth, certainly not banks. If they don’t have the data, then they can’t report it. That’s the situation at present.
4. For accounts over $1 million, there a paper search is required and possibly interview with a relationship manager. Good luck to anyone in this situation. Won’t ever apply to me.
There are plenty of reasons to object to FATCA and the IGA; I just hope these facts (if I am right) might allow a few people to breathe more easily.
@All
I don’t know if this is on Brock yet.
FBARs are not a tax form, however.
Because FBARs are a Treasury Department form, the strict confidentiality rules of section 6103 do not apply.
http://taxconnections.com/taxblog/law-enforcement-can-access-fbar-records/
On my commute every morning I walk through Trafalgar Square in London, and right past the front of Canada House, the High Commission of Canada in the UK. I always allow myself just a little private fist-pump when passing. Guess I should stop with that now. And I’m sorry, Canada, that my own stupid lapdog govt led the way on FATCA IGAs. If the UK had more backbone the outcomes might have been different.
@mjh49783, if it’s any consolation, the oath of Canadian citizenship (when I took it quite some time ago) requires one to swear allegiance to the Queen (or perhaps just to Canada now), not to the current government. With any luck the Conservatives may not be the government after the next federal election.
@AnonAnon
Then the most important question on my mind, and perhaps in many Canadian’s minds here is: Will Canada actually stand for her own? I’m sure that without a doubt, there are plenty of people here that are willing to sue the Harper government to rightfully demand protection from the US government as Canadians. Nevertheless, I can already see from the actions of the Conservatives that, some Canadians matter, and some just don’t. Is this really the direction that Canada needs to go?
Well, if they decide to vote in the Conservatives again in 2015, then I guess I’ll have my answer, and then I’ll be out of here for sure. It’s one thing to be shit on by your own government, but it’s another thing to watch another government shit on it’s own people. Especially so if they’re in any way connected with the shittiness of the US government, and all of it for the sake of the Harper government wanting to be some ass kissing toady to the US. I just cannot respect a toady.
Treating the Canadian registered accounts as “non-reportable” only gets the banks off the hook, not the taxpayers. Taxpayers still need to report every bank account, registered or not, and pay the full tax pop to the IRS, basically making these accounts totally useless for certain Canadians.
At the very least it pushes many below the threshold and do not have to worry about the IRS finding out they exist.
@NorthernShrike
As it turns out the exemptions will place me below the $50,000 threshold for foreseeable future… Don;t have to worry about a knock at the door.
@AnonAnon
When I swore the oath in 2008, it was still to the Queen.
This appears to be the FATCA enacting legislation. Note closing date for comments to Department of Finance – March 10
FATCA enacting legislation
An Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States for the enhanced exchange of tax information under the Canada-United States Tax Convention was signed on February 5, 2014, in Ottawa.
The IGA will enter into force once Canada has notified the United States that the procedures required by Canadian law for the bringing into force of the IGA have been completed. It is proposed that the IGA have effect as of July 1, 2014.
Detailed draft legislative proposals and accompanying explanatory notes in respect of changes to the Income Tax Act to implement the IGA are attached.
Comments on the legislative proposals can be submitted to the Department of Finance at IGA-AIG@fin.gc.ca or to the address below. The closing date for comments is March 10, 2014.
Tax Policy Branch
Department of Finance
140 O’Connor Street
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0G5
http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/notices/fatca-eng.asp
Intergovernmental Agreement for the Enhanced Exchange of Tax Information under the Canada-U.S. Tax Convention (to see agreement already posted on Brock site)
Canada and U.S. Reach Agreement on Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (News Release 2014-018)
Legislative Proposals and Explanatory Notes Relating to the Canada-United States Enhanced Tax Information Exchange Agreement (click on this or go directly to)
http://www.fin.gc.ca/drleg-apl/2014/can-us-eu-0214-eng.asp
to see:
Legislative Proposals and Explanatory Notes Relating to the Canada-United States Enhanced Tax Information Exchange Agreement
I see that existing accounts are to be reviewed as of 30th June 2014 and reporting will be required for 2014 if the account is over $50,000 and there is indication of US Indicia (i.e. US birthplace).
If someone has renounced in 2014 prior to 30th June, does this mean their existing account data will still be reported for 2014? I would hope that production of a CLN showing non-US citizenship on 30th June 2014 would result in no possibility of being reported even for 2014?
I plan to renounce prior to the start date and am currently over the threshold. Will I be safe?
If the IGA carves out the FATCA reporting of RRSP’s, RDSP’s, RESP’s, TFSA’s etc, and US persons are still required to report those things to the IRS, isn’t the IGA actually encouraging non-compliance? I can’t see how the US agreed to this.
@Hogwarth,
“I see that existing accounts are to be reviewed as of 30th June 2014 and reporting will be required for 2014 if the account is over $50,000 and there is indication of US Indicia (i.e. US birthplace).”
This reporting will have to be for all account holders, no matter their citizenship — Canadians included. Plus, what enforcement mechanism will be implemented. Will people be fined for lying to a bank? Will everybody have to have a passport to open or continue having a bank account, to prove where their birth place is or isnt?
If I was going to open a new account I’d tell them I don’t have a passport. Not everyone does, so how can they insist? I can open an account with a driver’s license and my Canadian citizenship card.
I opened up an account today in a credit union with a driver’s license and a credit card.
All banks and credit unions require a SIN card for interest bearing or chequing accounts. It’s not legally required, they say, but they do insist on their right to refuse service…
So if they don’t need it, you can put in any number you want, as they will have no occasion to use it for anything and won’t ever find out if its real or not.
New account – plus of course the Social Insurance Number.
I would not use the Canadian citizenship card if at all possible. My Certificate of Canadian Citizenship has the year I became a citizen. The next question could then be “Where were you born?”, a topic I have no desire to discuss.
GwEvil says
February 6, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Regarding the SIN they have been insisting on it for new accounts for several years now — with a photocopy accompanied by original. If not, you are simply refused a new account. It isnt a leap to realise for this new disclosure reporting they will do the same for passports, or some other id which gives them the required info they’re seeking. And this doesnt even cover the spouses or offspring or investments of targeted people — in which cases, they’ll have to delve alot deeper into your personal life…
I just find it hard to believe the authorities will dump all this data mining on the banks, the front end, where data collection will be sloppy and unreliable. The real gold mine of data is with the Cdn govt which has the most accurate info the IRS needs to cross check their data bases.
My citizenship card just has the date of issue. I have been a Canadian since birth and just decided to apply for the card lately as its easier to tote around than my registration of Canadian birth abroad.
@All
Listen to what Voyons said:
“I opened up an account today in a credit union with a driver’s license and a credit card.”
You generally need two pieces of ID to open a bank account. One should be photo ID, like your Driver’s License (or Photo Card if you don’t drive).
The second piece could be a debit card, credit card, or Employee ID card from a well known company.
You only have to give your SIN out if it is an interest bearing account. SIN is not required for chequing accounts. The only reason they could refuse to open an account is if you do not have two pieces of ID.
You can even open an account with just a Driver’s License, PROVIDED you get a client of that bank branch who is well known, that also knows you, to vouch for your identity.
The requirements to open an account is listed on all the major banks websites. ID is segmented into either Section A or Section B. You need either two pieces of Section A or one piece Section A and B to open the account.
Driver’s License is Section A. Debit card, credit card, employee ID card is considered Section B.
Different banks have different requirements. At CIBC, a US Passport is considered Section A. At BMO, a foreign passport is Section B.
I’ve worked in banking, I know what I’m talking about.