Northernstar emailed Justin Trudeau in July 2013 regarding her concerns about FATCA. Today she received the following email in response:
Dear XXXXXXX,
Thank you for taking the time to write to me with your concerns regarding the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
Despite its good intentions, the unfortunate consequence of FATCA is that Americans who hold dual citizenship still fall under its authority, and it requires access to their financial information through their banks. As a result of FATCA, there has been a surge in US citizenship renunciations over the past few years, and this trend continues to grow.
I share your concerns about personal privacy, an issue that is increasingly important to all Canadians. The Conservative government’s efforts to protect the personal privacy of Canadians have been inadequate. The implications of having Canadian banks report directly to a foreign government agency are troublesome. The Liberal Party of Canada will continue to press the government on this issue, and demand a closer examination of FATCA’s effects.
Thank you once again for writing to me and taking the time to share your concerns with me. It is through such exchanges of ideas and opinions that I can best represent not only my constituents, but all Canadians.
Sincerely,
Justin P. J. Trudeau
Member of Parliament for Papineau
Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada
Offline, a friend of Isaac Brock Society says:
It is one thing for the USA to say to individuals across the planet: if you have status under our law you must follow all of our laws no matter where you are. It is another thing entirely for Canada as a nation to voluntarily, with no compensation except the conditional promise of removal of a threat of economic sanctions, assist the United States in globally rounding people up to force them to comply with its patently untenable and unjustifiable position. Such assistance fundamentally conflicts with a universally recognized (and far more just) jurisdictional claim based on actual residence, which Canada practices along with the rest of the world.
Sadly too many do not “get it.”
The US Embassy website in Canada;
“However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. ”
But that statement is blatantly FALSE and is contradictory to the OFFICIAL and current dated US State Department publication 7 Fam 080 which states a dual living in one of their countries owes “paramount allegience.”
That language is extremely clear!
Paramount is defined in the dictionary as “more important than anything else; supreme.”
Further according to the US State Department, Canada “has the right to assert its claim without interference from the” United States.
JT and the other MPs please assert your claims without interferrence!!
@mettleman
The Canadian government can only do so much to protect dual Canada/US persons from their US obligations. Especially if such a dual gets arrested in the US, the Canadian consulate will likely be told to get bent if you ask for their assistance, and there is nothing that you, or they, can do about it.
As a US citizen, you cannot legally buy, or smoke, a Cuban cigar, from anywhere. That is regardless if you’re enjoying said cigar in Canada, and even if you’re doing so legally as a Canadian citizen otherwise, because you’re still breaking US law. You might even get away with doing it for many years, or even decades, but that changes nothing in their eyes. They also don’t care if you didn’t know about the law, and all they’ll say about it is ‘ignorance is no excuse’.
Think that is absurd? Of course it is. It is completely ridiculous. However, this is exactly where dual citizenship becomes an untenable absurdity. Especially when the US is involved.
Look, I’m not trying to be hard on you, but you need to be prepared for the fact that the life of a US person abroad is a very hard life to live, because the US flat out despises US persons living abroad. This is whether you become surprised by your US personhood while living abroad all your life, or when you’ve left the US in search of a better life, and are learning about your continued obligations to the plantation. Now with FATCA looming, foreign nations, foreign banks, etc… are not wanting to deal with us, either, because they don’t want to deal with the US. It is unfair to us, but looking at it from their point of view, I really can’t blame them.
We are an endangered species, and we’re being poached for extinction. We will either return to the homeland, or else renounce our homeland forever. Nobody is going to tell our stories for us. We have to do that part ourselves. We’re all a part of that story. Even you.
@mjh49783
i totaly understand that i have to live under the law of the land and that if i did something illegal in the us i would not expect canada to bail my butt out.
i take exception with the cuban cigar example as i am a canadian first as this is my home and residence and i will abide by canadian law when in canada and the americans can go f*&k themselves if they want to stop me smoking my cuban cigar.
i agree with you as well that life as an american not in america is already hard and getting harder. absoutly no argument there from me. and nor do i blame any instituion from having to deal with americans.
i believe you as well that we have to tell our stories and that is what we are doing here and on other websites and in the media.
we are all walking down this road together.
united we stand divided we fall…….i really believe we are going to stand united and beat this darn thing called FATCA!!!!!!
@George
The US government will use its own rules and laws to serve its own self interests. Not ours.
Why else can the US claim some people as theirs without effort, and scaring the living hell out of people over something they had NO control over, like being born in the US 30-40 some years ago, while their parents had to struggle to even get them recognized as US citizens, and perhaps some parents never even sought recognition of US personhood for their kids in the first place.
Some ex-US citizens have relinquished their US citizenship when they claimed a foreign nationality, just to have their relinquishments rescinded on them, even when the rule at that time (back in the 1970’s, I think) was clear that, you lost your US citizenship upon acquiring another.
@mettleman
You have every right to be pissed off at the US. We all are pissed off at the US for what they’re doing. But you can’t let the anger from what they’re doing consume you.
You should also take exception of the Cuban cigar dilemma, because it is absurd. You clearly see it. Everybody with a brain sees it. That’s why I use it, in order to point out absurdities.
But with all of that being said, if you renounce, don’t bother with the US taxes, and don’t visit the US, then the US can’t do much to you while you stay outside of US jurisdiction. After that, you can choose to become compliant with back taxes, or not, and do so on your terms if you choose to bother with it, while not worrying about future US taxes past your expatriation date. Canada is unlikely to allow one of her own to be extradited to the US for US tax issues, so in some ways, you’re actually in much better shape than I am. Here, I’m only a permanent resident. Not a citizen. I can’t afford to be a US tax scofflaw and reasonably expect Canada to save me from the IRS, though it would be nice if they did. So, I have to live as a pauper, and stay compliant. Sure, I don’t like it, but I also know that I won’t have to do it forever.
Eyes on the prize. Renounce, get that CLN, and show it to your bank. The CLN is the best weapon you can have against FATCA, and it may prove to be the most important document in your possession.
I am wondering if anyone who has filed a 8854 has ever received a confirmation from the IRS that the form was filed and accepted. I have a CLN. This does not prove that I am not a “covered expatriate” How does one prove the IRS does not consider a person a “US Person”?
American smoking Cuban cigars..in Canada – breaking the law – how about this one.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/06/02/report-gov-arnold-schwarzenegger-lit-up-cuban-cigar-in-canada/
Another interesting case that I wonder if can be compared to FATCA.
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/01/30/italy-amanda-knox-retrial-verdict-hostin-analysis.cnn-ap.html
Worldwide,
Likely the only confirmation we’ll get from the IRS is, not that it was received and accepted as filed, but whatever receipt you have from whatever courier service you used to deliver the package to the US that it was delivered and hopefully signed for or stamped “Rec’d”. Staple that receipt, if you have such, to your copy of your 8854.
Probably the best we can hope for is: No News Is Good News. The IRS doesn’t seem to do too much of anything in what you would think should be good customer service. There certainly, for instance, is no action on their part, like sending a “Notice of Assessment” as CRA does for our yearly tax returns here in Canada. Any action must be initiated on our part.
George, Don’t you think that the contradictions btwn the “official” State Dept policy and its embassy reveal that the US isn’t all that concerned in presenting facts because they really don’t believe that bi-nationals are the citizens of the countries where they reside but are in fact the US’s to command or not depending the circumstances?
There is conflicting info on the US’s stance and practices in regards to this all over and I don’t think that is accidental at all.
Bottom line is what our govt in Canada believes and it believes that we can be subject to US law if the US feels like applying it. How helpful or not they are willing to be remains to be seen.
The meeting minutes I read today were enlightening. Canada is keen to pursue a multi-lateral financial data sharing program though rather than simply a bi-lateral one with the US, and while they realize that there will be damage (to people and even the banks), they think it will be worth it.
We are serfs. Better though to be merely the serf of one country rather than two.
So if a CLN does not prove the a person is not beholding to the IRS, why would we think that a bank would take it as proof? Is there something in FATCA that says a CLN can be used to nullify a reporting obligation? I see the in the law that which would lead a bank to suspect a tax-cheat. What document frees a person?
@Worldwide,
I was wondering the same thing. So what if you have a CLN, that doesn’t mean you are tax compliant. Will a CLN be enough for the banks to treat you as a 1st class Canadian, or will the banks want proof you are also up to date on your US tax ‘obligations’?
Is up to the bank to decide what evidence is required to clear me from having my account report to the IRS? Is a proof of citizenship of a county enough? Is a letter from my mother ok? I know by my SIN one can deduce my country of origin/sex/race and a few other things. I can’t remember if I ever disclosed this to my bank. Likely on some past mortgage or loan application.
This is what it says about the procedure for former citizens to avoid being classified a USC in the UK FATCA Agreement, Annex 1, s. 4 a)(3), states:
Well, if its that easy, and for some reason the bank knows you were born in USA, just tell them you became a Canadian as an adult (even if you were born dual), but you never applied for a CLN. Show them your Canadian certificate as proof of Canadian citizenship. Done.
Oh, and make sure they know that obtaining Canadian citizenship was a relinquishing act, and that you have not been American since then.
So I will just have to wait for the IGA before I know if Justin would throw me under the bus.
This is off topic for this thread, but since conversation has veered off a bit, I thought I would mention that credit unions are probably going to be a lot more accepting of your ‘explanation as to why you are not a US citizen’ than the big banks. Here is a link to a Dec 17, 2013 report from the Credit Union Central of Canada that may lure you over to your local credit union: http://www.cucentral.ca/_layouts/download.aspx?SourceUrl=http://www.cucentral.ca/Connections/Connections%20Dec%202013%20FATCA%20FINAL.pdf
I know I am speculating here, but I worry when people talk about renouncing without intending on becoming compliant. It is possible that to renounce will bring you to IRS attention, which might kick off communications to CRA that you are a non-compliant US person whose banking data needs to be forwarded to the IRS. At this point, until we know exactly HOW banks are going to smoke us out, it might be better for those who are contemplating renouncing just to get a coveted CLN to show to the banks, to wait a bit. If it turns out that a ‘reasonable explanation’ is enough, then it would be safer to go this route than to bring oneself to the attention of the IRS. Just a thought.
livin’ the dream
a waking nightmare is more like it!
#WhiteKat
A ‘non-compliant US person’ with a CLN in hand has every right to demand that the CRA not forward his tax information to the IRS, as he is no longer a US person anymore. It would even be incorrect to call him a US person.
Same thing goes to the banks here as well.
Perhaps a credit union may be okay with an explanation, but I want the CLN paper, anyway. I’m no dummy. I want ALL of my bases covered. Why even take that kind of chance?
@mj
Is it even possible to have all your bases covered? To renounce without becoming compliant is taking a chance.
My morning tweet to J Tru:
“as a Canadian living in Canada I don’t fall under the jurisdiction of the US”
I could hear him thinking: “Yah, obviously!”
@Worldwide
If you are no longer a US person, and you can prove that with a CLN, then the IRS no longer has a claim on you. You are not resolved of any past issues, but they can’t touch you for any current or future issues. The bank is also under no obligation to report you to the IRS under FATCA as you would be no longer a US person.
@mj
I have a CLN. That did not stop the IRS from sending me demand for payment after that date. And the continue to access penalties and interest.