Northernstar emailed Justin Trudeau in July 2013 regarding her concerns about FATCA. Today she received the following email in response:
Dear XXXXXXX,
Thank you for taking the time to write to me with your concerns regarding the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
Despite its good intentions, the unfortunate consequence of FATCA is that Americans who hold dual citizenship still fall under its authority, and it requires access to their financial information through their banks. As a result of FATCA, there has been a surge in US citizenship renunciations over the past few years, and this trend continues to grow.
I share your concerns about personal privacy, an issue that is increasingly important to all Canadians. The Conservative government’s efforts to protect the personal privacy of Canadians have been inadequate. The implications of having Canadian banks report directly to a foreign government agency are troublesome. The Liberal Party of Canada will continue to press the government on this issue, and demand a closer examination of FATCA’s effects.
Thank you once again for writing to me and taking the time to share your concerns with me. It is through such exchanges of ideas and opinions that I can best represent not only my constituents, but all Canadians.
Sincerely,
Justin P. J. Trudeau
Member of Parliament for Papineau
Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada
Offline, a friend of Isaac Brock Society says:
It is one thing for the USA to say to individuals across the planet: if you have status under our law you must follow all of our laws no matter where you are. It is another thing entirely for Canada as a nation to voluntarily, with no compensation except the conditional promise of removal of a threat of economic sanctions, assist the United States in globally rounding people up to force them to comply with its patently untenable and unjustifiable position. Such assistance fundamentally conflicts with a universally recognized (and far more just) jurisdictional claim based on actual residence, which Canada practices along with the rest of the world.
@northernstar
Some in my family wish for me to go back as well, because they are ‘oh so concerned’ that I may be overwhelmed in my cargiving for my wife.
Yeah, I’m still waiting for them to come visit and display some real concern. And my family is puzzled as to why I don’t want to go back.
No need to apologize; I think you are pretty much right on all points. Here’s hoping your Canadian citizenship is acquired in timely fashion and you can give the US a final one finger salute on the same day.
The only point on which I might differ is that we don’t get to choose which laws to obey. As a moral person we always have the right to disobey laws which are unjust or immoral. One might even say we have a duty. This is the basis of conscientious objection or civil disobedience. Of course that objection or disobedience may have negative consequences for that person, but if and when FATCA is implemented, I don’t think you need to immediately book your return ticket back to the plantation.
Canada at least has a precedent of protecting those who are not yet citizens. Think of all the refugees from all the despotic countries (including the US) who have fled to Canada over the years. I think you are in pretty good company.
mjh,
Thanks for your reference to my son’s situation.
Regarding your family puzzled as to why you don’t want to go back, do you relate with this? I do; it rawly conveys what many of us feel. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/01/27/todays-must-read-us-senate-finance-committee-submission-by-john-richardson-willard-yates-stephen-kish/comment-page-2/#comment-1043921
I really agree with maz57:
mjh49783,
I am a dual from birth who has only lived in Canada, only as a Canadian. I have never had any benefit or convenience from my supposed US citizenship, which I have no need or desire for.
I do sympathize with your situation of only having US citizenship as a resident of Canada, but I do not agree that I have a choice to lose my US citizenship – the cost of the taxes & FBAR penalties that the US would impose on me for renouncing are just ridiculous and could wipe out my life savings (unless I just renounced and then refused to pay).
This aspect of the injustice of the US’ CBT is particularly galling: if the US wants to tax its citizens worldwide it could at least give US citizens the choice of being willing to comply or let them go at no or minimal cost.
@MJH, I have learned that dual citizenship has pros and cons. Up to three years ago, I had only perceived the advantages. I could understand that young people finding out that they also have US citizenship might even be pleased, as it could offer them many career opportunities, plus I know that there are multitudes who would die for a green card.
Where the USA went wrong was in its lack of clearly communicating what these tax and filing/reporting obligations are for duals and other US Persons such as green card holders. Perhaps if I had fully understood all the tax ramifications back when I started saving for retirement, I might have still considered it worth retaining both citizenships and used specialist tax preparers and financial advisors from the beginning had I known.
Me being me, I would probably have even decided just to forego using the conventional retirement vehicles and just have saved into a simple savings account so that I could file simple tax returns to the US. Instead, I had been oblivious and had done all my financial planning like my fellow Brits, naively assuming that the tax treaty was protecting me from double tax since I am not a high earner or rich. I fell into the PFIC taxation trap via my locally owned mutual funds.
These seemed to make perfect sense because funds provide a way for those of more modest means to spread out their investment risk. I had believed that the USA would honour the UK’s tax-free ISA status, as they are similar to IRA’s in the US. Blah, blah, blah.
Anyhow, what’s done is done; as I couldn’t fully undo the mess, especially as I’d entered into a pension plan through my employer which the US might even consider a foreign grantor trust. I can’t undo this account or investment no matter how I much I pleaded with the administrators. I had thus reached the point of no return.
Even had I gone back to the US to live, I would have continued to suffer complicating reporting requirements for my UK pension plan. On the other hand, a young person just starting out could nowadays still choose to retain both citizenships because they’d more easily enjoy a far better understanding of what the potential obligations entail. Where many of us feel embittered is that we feel as though we were entrapped into a huge mess.
Had I understood things back then like I do now, I could have done things completely differently and perhaps not felt the need to renounce.
@MJH why must i be forced to choose which citzenship i wish to retain when i am being thrust into this mess through no fault of my own.
america has done one heck of a poor job letting its citizens know just exactly what was expected of them. i have lived in canada since 1989 and only found out a couple of years ago i was expeceted to file every year with the irs.
i have absoutly no convience of american citizenship other than to file form after form and have the threat of fines if i don’t.
i would love to be able to cut all my ties with america however due to the potential cost of becoming tax compliant after i renounce my only choice is to break the law and renounce and not become tax compliant afterwards.
i am caught between a dang if i do and dang if i don’t. so i am willing to bury my americanness and hope that i never get that knock on the door by the men in black coats and jack boots. i am increasingly becomming a less and less happy person and at times am just miserable to be around because i find myself thinking more and more about this situation that i have little to no control over.
i really wish the canadian gov’t would come out from under the sheets and tell us what their position is going to be and then allow us to make further decisons based on what the gov’t is going to do.
@mettleman
I went to high school in the USA. I aced in US History for 2 years .. I never was taught about Citizen based taxation even when we studied the Civil War.
From what I have reading the education system is not as good as when I went…
@mjh, I appreciate your comments and it had a lot to do with why I renounced. Once I knew about CBT, what the implications were for my family and accepted that morally I completed disagreed with it my options narrowed. I relinquished to protect my family here in Canada and because I felt by keeping in line with U.S. law as a citizen abroad I was a burden to them.
It isn’t moral and it isn’t fair or fun but, I did accept that the U.S. has this “law” and that I was one of their citizens and furthermore that as an expat they intended for my entire family to be held under suspicion. Acceptance of that fact is what made me realize there was no other option but, to relinquish. I couldn’t move back and take my family with me. Spouse is not American and he’d have no job there. We’re too old to just up and move. Then I got mad knowing that the U.S. doesn’t care if it’s putting some people in this position. Their sentiment seems to be “So what? You moved away, here’s your punishment”
@northernstar i spent one year in high school in the states and another 2 in college and nary a word of cbt.
if this taxation issue was such a big thing then why did the u.s. border guards not feel it was necessary to inform me of this anytime i crossed the border in the 25 years i have lived only in canada? why still as of this past november when i made my last trip over was i still not informed of this matter and only strongly suggested to obtain an american passport as i was traveling on my canadain one.
why when i sent in my last tax return in 1989 did the irs not notify me at my canadian address i used when i filled out the form as to my obligations?
there was ample opertunity for the american gov’t to inform we “american persons” of our obligations and yet they choose not to do so.
well guess what i am choose to full fill my rights as american then and proceed with civil disobitence and not fill out any tax forms
mettleman,
I’m with you in all of your questions. The US does, as I’ve said before, a piss-poor job of educating / giving full disclosure — either to those who have moved away from the US or those entering the US with a green card for permanent residence. There are no two ways about it. There is something very wrong, very deceitful about this practice. I was intimidated the last time I crossed the border with my Canadian passport that showed a US birthplace. I got that cursed US passport, but then I made other mistakes too: backing filing (now “US tax compliant from 2005 through 2012 and all FBARs giving all of my private financial information to what I consider a “foreign” country) and have my CLN) and voting (the only US time! in the 2008 election for the man who deems us tax evaders and traitors). The rest of my story here is shameful because of my intimidation. No fool like an old fool! May not another person be so intimidated. My former US citizenship and my son’s ‘supposed’ US citizenship do not, in my mind, take precedence over our Canadian citizenship. I should be the one who decides that.
@mettleman
I agree. Why should you be forced? But that is exactly what the policies of the US are doing. It isn’t fair, but it is what it is.
I’m only saying, why put up with it just to hold onto a US passport? I know I wouldn’t. If I had the opportunity, I’d get rid of my US citizenship right now. I don’t care for what the US stands for. I don’t care for what the US does in my name. Why would I want to be associated with that? Why would anyone want to be associated with that?
@Mr. A.
I agree with you as well. Unfortunately, the US government doesn’t. They’re not going to just let us go. They need us to help keep their coffers filled for the next bullshit war, or the next bullshit bank bailout, etc…. That is the point of CBT. We are tax chattel slaves in the eyes of the US government until we can buy our own freedom. I have to make stupid tax maneuvers just to shelter my Canadian wife from the IRS, and in the event she gets so sick as to where she needs a power of attorney, I cannot do that without making her a victim of the IRS. Forget us having joint accounts!
In the meantime, I can complain about this all I want to the US government, but they flat out don’t give a shit. Far as they’re concerned, I’m a tax cheat and a scourge that deserves nothing but derision from the homelanders. I also get to be a scapegoat for their bullshit politics, too
I will now ask you, why would I want to be associated with that? Because for me to hold onto my US citizenship, this is the kind of bullshit intrusion that I have to deal with, and that my wife has to potentially deal with as well. Why in the Name of God would I want to hold onto US citizenship in light of these circumstances? Far as I’m concerned, they can all get stuffed.
If you had to deal with this, why would you want to insult your own dignity by protesting your own treatment, while holding onto the hand of the same oppressor that mistreats you?
@calgary411, @maz57
“As a moral person we always have the right to disobey laws which are unjust or immoral. One might even say we have a duty.”
I fully agree with that, but for me, it is more important to protect my spouse than it is to protect myself. That is the higher moral authority that I must adhere to, as in any marriage, it is not just about me anymore.
I can’t make this issue about myself if it ends up harming her in the process. My mistreatment will be solved in due time, provided that I am patient. Fighting only harms my marriage, and I will get nowhere with it, but relinquishment will essentially solve most all of my problems that exist now, and that may also exist in the future, that may be caused by having US personhood.
As for issues with my family, I’m simply stating that if they would like to show some real concern, that they could take the time to come visit us. To date, none of them have bothered. (it’s been over two years) So, when they express ‘concern’, I believe they’re only real concern is that I chose to leave the US in search of a better life, and not really for my well being. And what of her well being? Does that even factor into the equation anywhere? Or does she need to be a US person first, and maybe…..?
@ mjh49783 as i have said many times before i would love to be done with my american citizenship. my 2 options are both include to pay the $450 to renounce and then a)become tax compliant (which i can not afford to do. my accountant estimates somewhere in the $40-50,000 range for fees and fines and penalities) or b) renounce and not become tax compliant and never travel to the us ever again (which i have already resigned my self to doing) and then spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder.
neither option is a great one at this point.
@calgary411 i feel so much for you being stuck in the situation you are in with your son and in reality you just wanted to do the right thing from the start. at least when i crossed the border for the last time when the border agent told me to go get an american passport i took that as a sign to go to the beach and not to the post office. 🙂 you are not an old fool!!!!!! you have taken the bull by the horns and used what used to be a cornerstone of being an american and stood up for yours and all of ours rights and called out the bully in the room. thank you so very much for being as out spoken as you are on this issue. it is because of you and others on this and maple sandbox’s website that this fatca issue has become as public as it has become.
i certainly hope we can close this regrettable chapter in all of our lives sooner than later but unfortuantly i am not so confident on that desire.
FATCA Daily Digest has this as their lead story today.
http://paper.li/FinancialCrime1/1329517783
@mettleman
Personally, if I don’t ever set foot in the US ever again, I will be grateful. If you are protesting the $450 fee, that’s another issue that we don’t get to control, but, we can either pay it and cut ties, or don’t pay it and continue the ties that bind. Some people even have to pay a steep exit tax in order to get away. That’s not fair, either. However, that is the nature of the beast that confronts us.
Our US personhood makes us all victims once we leave the plantation. The US doesn’t care if we left in our 30’s, or if we left at 3 months old, or that we may have also acquired a foreign citizenship by birth.
Meanwhile, this time last year, I had a lot of doubts on how I was going to handle this ordeal, yet time marches on, and I’m closer to my goal. Where I once had doubt, I am now 100% sure on where I stand, what is important in my life and for my sanity, and what I need to do to secure my own happiness, and my own peace. We can choose to remain as victims in this, or we can choose to survive and transcend this problem.
You must understand that at this point, not only am I in odds with the US government, I’m also in odds with my own family as well. As for the government, I will comply until I either no longer have to, (by virtue of relinquishing) or when their position turns so repugnant to where it serves me no purpose to comply. (such as them arbitrarily refusing renunciations) As for my family, I’m not trying to prove anything to them. If they can’t respect my life choices, then they don’t have to talk to me.
Thanks, mettleman. You’re right, I just wanted to do everything right. How did it go so wrong?
mjh,
Another way of saying we all have to do our drudge work, the hard research, and then make the decisions that we can live with on just how to proceed — our individual plans. You seem to be in a good head space — congratulations:
@calgary411 “I just wanted to do everything right. How did it go so wrong?”
you trusted the gov’t. both the american and canadian ones.
never again for me anyways.
scarier words have never been spoken “trust us we are from the gov’t and are here to help”
@badger, Thanks for the link. The meetings of the Finance committee seem to be were FATCA comes up the most with pretty nothing since last spring but the disheartening thing is that though the collateral damage to ordinary Canadians is considered “sad” the conversation mostly focuses on businesses and corporations and tax evasion. The Canadian govt is keen on cracking down on these folks and sees agreements like FATCA as a step in the best direction to do it. Duals, accidentals and anyone else who gets entrapped by the USP thing isn’t high on anyone’s priority list despite the fact that they all seem to agree that FATCA is a crappily written and monstrously hard to enact piece of legislation that is going to cost banks a lot of money. (I am pleased to see that they also don’t give a damn about the banks either. Call me cold and selfish.)
@all, given what I read via Badger’s link, I think it might be safe to assume that the Canadian govt generally, sees FATCA has the starting place for a better international program of milking corporations and investors of more tax money than they are currently getting. While it is disheartening to know that citizens are little more than piggybanks, I can’t say I am surprised. That’s just the kind of world we’ve evolved into.
Brison and Hsu seem to be focused on ferreting out the unintended consequences via their questions during question period, but it should be noted that they and the NDP critic are the only ones who have stood up in the House and questioned the govt at all on FATCA. One time each.
Even the Finance committee seemed to have no info on the IGA talks in regards to where it stood, what was being discussed or when it might reach a conclusion.
If it is going to show up, it will have to do so soon but even if it doesn’t, this won’t mean that the banks can’t begin complying on July 1.
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mjh49783, I too am “waiting” and my family in the US is concerned about my relinquishing b/c they fear that if my husband should die, I won’t be able to “come home”. A valid concern. It’s not like I haven’t had a husband die on me before but they fail to take into account that I have raised a child here and have two grown up children here and for all intents and purposes, Canada is now my home. There is nothing to go back to. I gave everything up and everything that matters is here. This, I think, is hard for people to understand who have never been emigrants/immigrants and I think that most people aren’t emotionally or intellectually capable of doing such a thing.
Someone asked why they should give up their USC. They shouldn’t have to. Possibly not. It certainly isn’t fair that a USC anymore needs to in order to live forever outside the USA, but things are what they are.
The United States only acknowledges the existence of dual citizenship and in practice reserves the right to require all USC’s, regardless of where they live, to obey their laws first and to give primary allegiance to the USA first. Being a USC means agreeing with that in principle and in practice.
I mentioned JT’s response to my husband and he agreed that Canadians, white ones especially, have a prejudice where dual citizenship is concerned. They don’t necessarily think it shouldn’t exist but they have little sympathy for duals who chose to be duals and then find themselves being subject to demands of their other country that make life in Canada difficult or make visiting their birth nation impossible or difficult (example would be Italy for a while and Israel still had mandatory military service rules and Canada refused to help duals – even if born in Canada – when they found themselves conscripted).
The fact that USC’s can’t easily dump their citizenship like Canadians can is lost on Canadians – people or politicians. It’s almost like they view duality as some choice that we all made when that is not always the case.
@Yogagirl, “The United States only acknowledges the existence of dual citizenship and in practice reserves the right to require all USC’s, regardless of where they live, to obey their laws first and to give primary allegiance to the USA first. Being a USC means agreeing with that in principle and in practice”
I have been trying to correct such false ideas on other threads and I know Petros has written on this.
From the US Dept of State, 7 Fam 080, the formal and OFFICIAL US Position.
“b. It is a generally recognized rule, often regarded as a rule of international law,
that when a person who is a dual national is residing in either of the countries
of nationality, the person owes paramount allegiance to that country, and that
country has the right to assert its claim without interference from the other
country.”
AND
“e. U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality: When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual
nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.”
which can be accessed in the list of links at http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/07fam/ (shown in list as “-080 DUAL NATIONALITY [111 Kb])”
Also, this term dual national does not exist. It is impossible to be more than a single nationality at any point in time.
The Government of Canada only recognizes Canadian Citizens with “clinging” US nationality as solely Canadian. IF they recognized one as a US Citizen you would be an illegal alien who overstayed.
Per the US State Department Official Guidance to State Department Employees, my “paramount allegience” is to the nation I live in and I want my elected officials to assert their claim on me without any US “interference.”
@George given what you have said above re:
From the US Dept of State, 7 Fam 080, the formal and OFFICIAL US Position.
“b. It is a generally recognized rule, often regarded as a rule of international law,
that when a person who is a dual national is residing in either of the countries
of nationality, the person owes paramount allegiance to that country, and that
country has the right to assert its claim without interference from the other
country.”
AND
“e. U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality: When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual
nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.”
it is heart warming to read that the irs is in step with the rest of the us gov’t 🙂 with the continued foray into the netherworld of fatca.
@mettleman LOL LOL
@All Canadian Brockers whose only dual citizenship under Canadian Law is that you are dual Canadian and Commonwealth Citizens!!
Could some of you start sending the above Official and Current Dated US State Department Publication to JT and your MPs.
JT says, “is that Americans who hold dual citizenship still fall under its authority,” which falls flatly against what the US State Department states in its Official Publication.
“the person owes paramount allegiance to that country, and that
country has the right to assert its claim without interference from the other
country.”
To be blunt the Government of Canada needs to formally state and even pass into law that it does not recognize dual nationality within its borders. That will not resolve clinging nationality but it will clear the air and there is nothing better on earth than clear crisp Canadian air.
I’m listening carefully to what you are presenting and adding to my file of what I have garnered from USCitizenAbroad (I understand his language, lots!) — and from Petros. I really appreciate your input here.
We should all be paying closer attention to this. Read, printed and ready for further use — to discuss at the next seminar I will be attending.
@mjh49783
i don’t hold a valid us passport. i believe the one i had expired in 1988.
i am not protesting the $450 fee either. i am having trouble with the getting out and then either become tax compliant which i can not afford to do or don’t become tax compliant and look over my shoulder for the rest of my life waiting for the black trench coats and jack boots to show up at my door in additon to never being able to cross the border again.
heck of a choice eh?
right now i am choosing to do neither and am waiting to see just how far under the bus the harper gov’t is going to throw us…………i think i am going on 6 weeks and 7 e mails to my m.p. with no response at all…….