Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 63 Comments

US Senate Finance Committee Submission–Richardson, Yates and Kish

Cross-posted from Maple Sandbox: US Senate Finance Committee Submission — Richardson, Yates and Kish

Here’s an excellent submission (Request for Tax Rule Changes) to the U.S. Senate Finance Committee.

This was written by *Toronto lawyer John Richardson, ***University of Toronto professor Dr. Stephen Kish and (this is huge!) **U.S. attorney Willard Yates. Mr. Yates’ involvement is significant because he retired from Office of Associate Chief Counsel (International) (ACCI), Internal Revenue Service after 31 years of service.

The 32 page comprehensive submission deals with everything from problems of citizenship based taxation to the financial and psychological costs of renouncing US citizenship. Despite the complexity of issues covered, it is quite easy to understand for most of us who have been around this issue for a while (although newbies may very well find it overwhelming and frightening).

The report is also posted at citizenshipsolutions.ca , John Richardson’s Canadian website designed to counsel US citizens abroad who find themselves having to live in a FATCA and FBAR world.

badger said:
January 26, 2014 at 2:48 pm

This goes a long way to explaining why NZ should not go any further with a FATCA IGA:
US Senate Finance Committee Submission–Richardson, Yates and Kish

Perhaps a submission could include it, preface it, and add any other comments that the submitter felt needed elaboration or was specific re NZ?

63 thoughts on “Today’s “Must Read and Use Accordingly”: US Senate Finance Committee Submission by John Richardson*, Willard Yates**, Stephen Kish***”

  1. Love this:

    “What if you were born in California but moved to New York early in life. You live and work and pay taxes in New York for 30 years and one day you find out you were supposed to also file and pay taxes to California, because you were born there and never formally renounced your residency! You are a California Tax Evader! Since you didn’t report your New York bank account to California authorities, they are going to confiscate your assets! You have been paying full taxes and complying with New York law, but sorry buddy, you were born in California and therefore must report and pay taxes to your birth state until you renounce California residency. Oh, and renouncing will cost you tons of money and California will threaten to never let you set foot across state lines if you do it. Oh, and your adult children are also facing personal bankruptcy; since you were “Californian” your children are also officially “Californian” until they renounce. Your entire family is destroyed and your New York born wife wants a divorce. Finally, New York banks decide they will no longer let Californians have bank accounts with them because the reporting requirements for you people are just too expensive. And California banks won’t let you have an account with them either (although they still consider you a resident), because you no longer have an address there. You may therefore have no bank account, no retirement plan, no investments, no credit card, no life. “

  2. Wow… Thanks for posting this! I’m having another ‘OMG’ moment, but this one in a good way!! Reading this makes me optimistic that our stories and messages are finally getting acknowledged. (My Canadian-only husband is suitably impressed, too!)

  3. Stephen Kish is a miracle worker! I am so proud of the people I know who did this! I agree with Fifi! A good OMG moment!!!

  4. In the interim period leading to the adoption of residence-based taxation we request that:
    1) What is “local” to the American abroad should NOT be FOREIGN under the IRC; and
    2) The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA), not be applied to U.S. citizens resident abroad.

    An excellent submission indeed and this part in particular sounded good but will the Senate Committee do anything soon or anything at all? More wait and wonder and worry but with the appreciation that the committee now has in its hands a whole lot of well-reasoned suggestions to take into consideration.

  5. Wow is right!

    If they actually accepted and implemented, my faith in that FOREIGN country to the south may actually be restored. I’m not holding my breath.

  6. This is FANTASTIC! These authors are among the greatest experts in international taxation, with decades of study and experience. Congress has to be convinced now.

    I am also very happy to see that my amateur work was specifically mentioned and recognized as “logic”.

  7. I know of Kish, yes, miracle worker absolute.

    If this submission doesn’t change the taxation laws then I will totally stand by the comments that I made on the thread before this one.

    He is a top, Prof. at CAMH and being a top medical director understands the effects that persecution and emotional stress has on an individual. He pulls a lot of weight in high places in Canada and the USA and would be difficult to ignore. I wouldn’t want to be Harper if he doesn’t listen to Kish and the others. https://www.michaeljfox.org/foundation/researchers.php?id=391

    He is a top researcher on Parkinsons and recipient of funding from Michael J Fox. Quite likely he was taught by or an associate of one of my previous doctors at UBC who taught Pharmacology and is head of the TI at UBC, not entirely sure.

    We couldn’t do any better from the standpoint of his lobbying the government on the social and financial costs of having a million or more people suffering PTSD from being persecuted by the U-SS-A and his reach is far far beyond Canada into the top psychiatric echelons of the USA and the ASAM which has huge influence on the medical community all across the USA and likely into the inner workings of Obama care although I’m just speculating on that one.

  8. @The Mom…..”may actually be restored” NOT MINE….EVER EVER. I’M DONE WITH THAT COUNTRY bye bye and not looking back.

  9. Specific Submissions:
    We ask that the committee specifically consider:
    A. The logic demonstrated by Mr. Pinto at:
    http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/pinto_wg_submission.pdf
    B. The example of the extreme hardship demonstrated by Ms. D’Addario (noted above) and found at:
    http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/patricia_anderson_daddario.pdf

    @ Shadow Raider
    Just thought I’d put that in for anyone still wading through the 32 pages. Your “amateur” work is anything but … I’d call it “amazing”. Thank you!

  14. send here too, I just did

    pm@pm.gc.ca

    pm@pm.gc.ca
    Cc: Minister_Ministre@hc-sc.gc.ca ; thomas.mulcair@parl.gc.ca ; Elizabeth.May@parl.gc.ca ; dpaille@bloc.org ; Premier@gov.ab.ca ; edmonton.rutherford@assembly.ab.ca ; highwood@assembly.ab.ca ; edmonton.meadowlark@assembly.ab.ca ; edmonton.highlandsnorwood@assembly.ab.ca ; premier@gov.bc.ca ; margaret.macdiarmid.mla@leg.bc.ca ; adrian.dix.mla@leg.bc.ca ; conservatives@bcconservative.ca ; premier@gov.sk.ca ; dduncan@mla.legassembly.sk.ca ; jnilson@mla.legassembly.sk.ca ; premier@leg.gov.mb.ca ; minhlt@leg.gov.mb.ca ; hugh.mcfadyen@leg.gov.mb.ca ; jon.gerrard@leg.gov.mb.ca ; kwynne.mpp@liberal.ola.org ; ccu.moh@ontario.ca ; tim.hudakco@pc.ola.org ; ahorwath-qp@ndp.on.ca ; premier.ministre@cex.gouv.qc.ca ; ministre@msss.gouv.qc.ca ; jean-marc.fournier-sala@assnat.qc.ca ; premier@gov.nl.ca ; SusanSullivan@gov.nl.ca ; dwightball@gov.nl.ca ; lorrainemichael@gov.nl.ca ; premier@gnb.ca ; flemmingmla@rothesay.ca ; victor.boudreau@gnb.ca ; premier@gov.ns.ca ; dave@davidawilsonmla.ca ; stephenmcneil@ns.aliantzinc.ca ; jamiebaillie@bellaliant.com ; RWJGHIZ@gov.pe.ca ; dwcurrie@gov.pe.ca ; omcrane@assembly.pe.ca ; dennis.fentie@gov.yk.ca ; doug.graham@gov.yk.ca ; liz.hanson@yla.gov.yk.ca ; sandy.silver@yla.gov.yk.ca ; darius.elias@yla.gov.yk.ca ; bob_mcleod@gov.nt.ca ; Sandy_Lee@gov.nt.ca ; kpeterson@gov.nu.ca

  16. Also read excellent editorial in the Victoria Times Colonist about US tax law invading Canada, telling Harper to forget about the Arctic and focus on the US tax invasion. Also tells Flaherty to tell the US to back off. Invasion of privacy, sovereignty etc. Well written. Yes, the message is getting through. The news media are paying attention. Good job Murray Rankin!!

  17. Is there any chance at all that a document even as impressive as this one could shift attitudes in Congress? Nothing could be clearer in pinpointing the true characteristics of Americans abroad and the host of inequities they are suffering. This is only a faint glimmer of hope but it is there, flickering, now. If it could be combined with a Canadian rejection of FATCA, the light would burn bright. So keep it up, Brockers; you are doing a great job!

  18. If anyone wants to use it, here’s my complete MP e-mail list which I corrected for recent by-election winners and resignees:

    BLOC QUEBECOIS:
    TO: andre.bellavance@parl.gc.ca
    Bcc: Claude.Patry@parl.gc.ca; Jean-Francois.Fortin@parl.gc.ca; louis.plamondon@parl.gc.ca

    CONSERVATIVE:
    TO: stephen.harper@parl.gc.ca
    Bcc: diane.ablonczy@parl.gc.ca; Eve.Adams@parl.gc.ca; Mark.Adler@parl.gc.ca; leona.aglukkaq@parl.gc.ca; Dan.Albas@parl.gc.ca; harold.albrecht@parl.gc.ca; Chris.Alexander@parl.gc.ca; mike.allen@parl.gc.ca; dean.allison@parl.gc.ca; Stella.Ambler@parl.gc.ca; rona.ambrose@parl.gc.ca; rob.anders@parl.gc.ca; david.anderson@parl.gc.ca; scott.armstrong@parl.gc.ca; keith.ashfield@parl.gc.ca; Jay.Aspin@parl.gc.ca; john.baird@parl.gc.ca; Joyce.Bateman@parl.gc.ca; leon.benoit@parl.gc.ca; maxime.bernier@parl.gc.ca; james.bezan@parl.gc.ca; steven.blaney@parl.gc.ca; kelly.block@parl.gc.ca; ray.boughen@parl.gc.ca; peter.braid@parl.gc.ca; garry.breitkreuz@parl.gc.ca; gord.brown@parl.gc.ca; lois.brown@parl.gc.ca; patrick.brown@parl.gc.ca; rod.bruinooge@parl.gc.ca; Brad.Butt@parl.gc.ca; paul.calandra@parl.gc.ca; blaine.calkins@parl.gc.ca; ron.cannan@parl.gc.ca; John.Carmichael@parl.gc.ca; colin.carrie@parl.gc.ca; Corneliu.Chisu@parl.gc.ca; michael.chong@parl.gc.ca; rob.clarke@parl.gc.ca; tony.clement@parl.gc.ca; Joan.Crockatt@parl.gc.ca; Joe.Daniel@parl.gc.ca; pat.davidson@parl.gc.ca; bob.dechert@parl.gc.ca; barry.devolin@parl.gc.ca; earl.dreeshen@parl.gc.ca; john.duncan@parl.gc.ca; rick.dykstra@parl.gc.ca; Ted.Falk@parl.gc.ca; julian.fantino@parl.gc.ca; ed.fast@parl.gc.ca; Kerry-Lynne.Findlay@parl.gc.ca; diane.finley@parl.gc.ca; jim.flaherty@parl.gc.ca; steven.fletcher@parl.gc.ca; royal.galipeau@parl.gc.ca; cheryl.gallant@parl.gc.ca; Parm.Gill@parl.gc.ca; shelly.glover@parl.gc.ca; Robert.Goguen@parl.gc.ca; peter.goldring@parl.gc.ca; gary.goodyear@parl.gc.ca; Bal.Gosal@parl.gc.ca; jacques.gourde@parl.gc.ca; nina.grewal@parl.gc.ca; richard.harris@parl.gc.ca; laurie.hawn@parl.gc.ca; Bryan.Hayes@parl.gc.ca; russ.hiebert@parl.gc.ca; Jim.Hillyer@parl.gc.ca; randy.hoback@parl.gc.ca; candice.hoeppner@parl.gc.ca; ed.holder@parl.gc.ca; Roxanne.James@parl.gc.ca; randy.kamp@parl.gc.ca; gerald.keddy@parl.gc.ca; jason.kenney@parl.gc.ca; peter.kent@parl.gc.ca; greg.kerr@parl.gc.ca; ed.komarnicki@parl.gc.ca; daryl.kramp@parl.gc.ca; mike.lake@parl.gc.ca; guy.lauzon@parl.gc.ca; denis.lebel@parl.gc.ca; Ryan.Leef@parl.gc.ca; Kellie.Leitch@parl.gc.ca; pierre.lemieux@parl.gc.ca; Chungsen.Leung@parl.gc.ca; Wladyslaw.Lizon@parl.gc.ca; ben.lobb@parl.gc.ca; tom.lukiwski@parl.gc.ca; james.lunney@parl.gc.ca; peter.mackay@parl.gc.ca; dave.mackenzie@parl.gc.ca; Larry.Maguire@parl.gc.ca; colin.mayes@parl.gc.ca; phil.mccoleman@parl.gc.ca; cathy.mcleod@parl.gc.ca; Costas.Menegakis@parl.gc.ca; rob.merrifield@parl.gc.ca; larry.miller@parl.gc.ca; james.moore@parl.gc.ca; rob.moore@parl.gc.ca; rob.nicholson@parl.gc.ca; rick.norlock@parl.gc.ca; deepak.obhrai@parl.gc.ca; gordon.oconnor@parl.gc.ca; bev.oda@parl.gc.ca; Joe.Oliver@parl.gc.ca; tilly.oneillgordon@parl.gc.ca; Ted.Opitz@parl.gc.ca; erin.otoole@parl.gc.ca; christian.paradis@parl.gc.ca; lavar.payne@parl.gc.ca; pierre.poilievre@parl.gc.ca; joe.preston@parl.gc.ca; lisa.raitt@parl.gc.ca; james.rajotte@parl.gc.ca; scott.reid@parl.gc.ca; Michelle.Rempel@parl.gc.ca; blake.richards@parl.gc.ca; lee.richardson@parl.gc.ca; greg.rickford@parl.gc.ca; gerry.ritz@parl.gc.ca; andrew.saxton@parl.gc.ca; andrew.scheer@parl.gc.ca; gary.schellenberger@parl.gc.ca; Kyle.Seeback@parl.gc.ca; gail.shea@parl.gc.ca; bev.shipley@parl.gc.ca; devinder.shory@parl.gc.ca; joy.smith@parl.gc.ca; robert.sopuck@parl.gc.ca; kevin.sorenson@parl.gc.ca; bruce.stanton@parl.gc.ca; brian.storseth@parl.gc.ca; Mark.Strahl@parl.gc.ca; david.sweet@parl.gc.ca; david.tilson@parl.gc.ca; Lawrence.Toet@parl.gc.ca; brad.trost@parl.gc.ca; Bernard.Trottier@parl.gc.ca; Susan.Truppe@parl.gc.ca; tim.uppal@parl.gc.ca; Bernard.Valcourt@parl.gc.ca; dave.vankesteren@parl.gc.ca; peter.vanloan@parl.gc.ca; maurice.vellacott@parl.gc.ca; mike.wallace@parl.gc.ca; mark.warawa@parl.gc.ca; chris.warkentin@parl.gc.ca; jeff.watson@parl.gc.ca; john.weston@parl.gc.ca; rodney.weston@parl.gc.ca; David.Wilks@parl.gc.ca; John.Williamson@parl.gc.ca; alice.wong@parl.gc.ca; stephen.woodworth@parl.gc.ca; lynne.yelich@parl.gc.ca; terence.young@parl.gc.ca; Wai.Young@parl.gc.ca; Bob.Zimmer@parl.gc.ca

    GREEN:
    TO: Elizabeth.May@parl.gc.ca
    Bcc: bruce.hyer@parl.gc.ca

    LIBERAL:
    TO: justin.trudeau@parl.gc.ca
    Bcc: scott.andrews@parl.gc.ca; mauril.belanger@parl.gc.ca; carolyn.bennett@parl.gc.ca; scott.brison@parl.gc.ca; gerry.byrne@parl.gc.ca; Sean.Casey@parl.gc.ca; irwin.cotler@parl.gc.ca; rodger.cuzner@parl.gc.ca; stephane.dion@parl.gc.ca; Emmanuel.Dubourg@parl.gc.ca; kirsty.duncan@parl.gc.ca; wayne.easter@parl.gc.ca; mark.eyking@parl.gc.ca; judy.foote@parl.gc.ca; Chrystia.Freeland@parl.gc.ca; hedy.fry@parl.gc.ca; marc.garneau@parl.gc.ca; ralph.goodale@parl.gc.ca; Ted.Hsu@parl.gc.ca; Yvonne.Jones@parl.gc.ca; jim.karygiannis@parl.gc.ca; kevin.lamoureux@parl.gc.ca; dominic.leblanc@parl.gc.ca; lawrence.macaulay@parl.gc.ca; john.mccallum@parl.gc.ca; david.mcguinty@parl.gc.ca; john.mckay@parl.gc.ca; joyce.murray@parl.gc.ca; massimo.pacetti@parl.gc.ca; geoff.regan@parl.gc.ca; francis.scarpaleggia@parl.gc.ca; judy.sgro@parl.gc.ca; scott.simms@parl.gc.ca; Frank.valeriote@parl.gc.ca

    NDP:
    TO: thomas.mulcair@parl.gc.ca
    Bcc: malcolm.allen@parl.gc.ca; charlie.angus@parl.gc.ca; niki.ashton@parl.gc.ca; alex.atamanenko@parl.gc.ca; Robert.Aubin@parl.gc.ca; Paulina.Ayala@parl.gc.ca; Tyrone.Benskin@parl.gc.ca; dennis.bevington@parl.gc.ca; Denis.Blanchette@parl.gc.ca; Lysane.Blanchette-Lamothe@parl.gc.ca; Francoise.Boivin@parl.gc.ca; Charmaine.Borg@parl.gc.ca; Alexandre.Boulerice@parl.gc.ca; Marjolaine.Boutin-Sweet@parl.gc.ca; Tarik.Brahmi@parl.gc.ca; Guy.Caron@parl.gc.ca; Andrew.Cash@parl.gc.ca; chris.charlton@parl.gc.ca; Sylvain.Chicoine@parl.gc.ca; Robert.Chisholm@parl.gc.ca; Francois.Choquette@parl.gc.ca; olivia.chow@parl.gc.ca; david.christopherson@parl.gc.ca; Ryan.Cleary@parl.gc.ca; joe.comartin@parl.gc.ca; Raymond.Cote@parl.gc.ca; jean.crowder@parl.gc.ca; nathan.cullen@parl.gc.ca; don.davies@parl.gc.ca; libby.davies@parl.gc.ca; Anne-Marie.Day@parl.gc.ca; paul.dewar@parl.gc.ca; Pierre.DionneLabelle@parl.gc.ca; fin.donnelly@parl.gc.ca; Rosane.DoreLefebvre@parl.gc.ca; Matthew.Dube@parl.gc.ca; linda.duncan@parl.gc.ca; Pierre-Luc.Dusseault@parl.gc.ca; RuthEllen.Brosseau@parl.gc.ca; Mylene.Freeman@parl.gc.ca; Randall.Garrison@parl.gc.ca; Rejean.Genest@parl.gc.ca; Jonathan.Genest-Jourdain@parl.gc.ca; Alain.Giguere@parl.gc.ca; yvon.godin@parl.gc.ca; claude.gravelle@parl.gc.ca; Sadia.Groguhe@parl.gc.ca; Dan.Harris@parl.gc.ca; jack.harris@parl.gc.ca; Sana.Hassainia@parl.gc.ca; carol.hughes@parl.gc.ca; Pierre.Jacob@parl.gc.ca; peter.julian@parl.gc.ca; Matthew.Kellway@parl.gc.ca; Francois.Lapointe@parl.gc.ca; Jean-Francois.Larose@parl.gc.ca; Alexandrine.Latendresse@parl.gc.ca; Helene.Laverdiere@parl.gc.ca; Helene.LeBlanc@parl.gc.ca; megan.leslie@parl.gc.ca; Laurin.Liu@parl.gc.ca; Hoang.Mai@parl.gc.ca; wayne.marston@parl.gc.ca; pat.martin@parl.gc.ca; brian.masse@parl.gc.ca; irene.mathyssen@parl.gc.ca; Elaine.Michaud@parl.gc.ca; AnneMinh-Thu.Quach@parl.gc.ca; Christine.Moore@parl.gc.ca; Dany.Morin@parl.gc.ca; Isabelle.Morin@parl.gc.ca; Marc-Andre.Morin@parl.gc.ca; Marie-Claude.Morin@parl.gc.ca; Pierre.Nantel@parl.gc.ca; Peggy.Nash@parl.gc.ca; Jamie.Nicholls@parl.gc.ca; Jose.Nunez-Melo@parl.gc.ca; Annick.Papillon@parl.gc.ca; Eve.Peclet@parl.gc.ca; Manon.Perreault@parl.gc.ca; Francois.Pilon@parl.gc.ca; john.rafferty@parl.gc.ca; Murray.Rankin@parl.gc.ca; Mathieu.Ravignat@parl.gc.ca; Francine.Raynault@parl.gc.ca; Jean.Rousseau@parl.gc.ca; Romeo.Saganash@parl.gc.ca; Jasbir.Sandhu@parl.gc.ca; craig.scott@parl.gc.ca; Djaouida.Sellah@parl.gc.ca; Jinny.Sims@parl.gc.ca; Rathika.Sitsabaiesan@parl.gc.ca; Lise.St-Denis@parl.gc.ca; Kennedy.Stewart@parl.gc.ca; peter.stoffer@parl.gc.ca; Mike.Sullivan@parl.gc.ca; glenn.thibeault@parl.gc.ca; Philip.Toone@parl.gc.ca; Jonathan.Tremblay@parl.gc.ca; Nycole.Turmel@parl.gc.ca

    INDEPENDENT:
    TO: dean.delmastro@parl.gc.ca
    TO: maria.mourani@parl.gc.ca
    TO: brent.rathgeber@parl.gc.ca

  19. qm – a Canadian rejection of FATCA would be a shot heard round the world. One can only hope it happens.

  21. I only had time to read it superficially. However, there is one serious flaw in the logic of “same country exemption.”

    If an American lives in a country with an unstable economy (prone to wars, coups, corruption, hyperinflation, expropriation, etc) and there are many of them out there, he/she is not going to put his/her retirement savings in banks in that country. Instead, he/she will put money in the nearest country with a stable economy.

    In other words, expats don’t all live in EU or Canada. Many live in places like Africa, the Middle East, former Soviet Republics, Balkans, etc. So tackling the problem for expats in G-20 countries but continuing to screw expats living in the developing world and/or frontier countries falls short of the mark and needs to be addressed.

    This is why RBT is the only solution! Tweaking the current system and putting band-aids over only some of the problems is wrong.

  22. AHHHHHHH!!! Every paragraph a gem. So concise, so precise, so TRUE. Every word of it.
    Now who is going to read this?

  23. AAAAHHHHHHH!!! How deeply satisfying. Every paragraph a gem. So concise, so precise, so TRUE. Every word of it.
    Now who is going to read this?

  24. @ brockers-if this doesn’t dynamite the fossil of CBT nothing will bar the loss or criminilisation of every single overseas USP

  25. Excellent article which hit the right spot. I mailed to many friends around the world who are experiencing the same s..t.
    I also made an appointment (two months from now) at the nearest US Embassy to renounce my citizenship. From the calendar you can see that they are pretty much booked up.

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