The map with the proportion of the population who are US citzens is actually for all of Canada (zoom it out, or use the arrow button to scroll around). A high proportion is found around Algonquin Park and Blue mountain, as well as SE BC; northern BC and Yukon, and Vancouver Island. These are all places where people retire to (except Northern BC/ Yukon) or at least have second residences. I don’t really understand this.
Petros
Dumb me there is a contributor list at Federalist.
Great article, but I don’t agree with this part:
“To me, my American citizenship is priceless. We live in England because my husband’s career is here for now. I hope we’ll move back to the US in a few years. I don’t mind paying an accountant to sort out my taxes if that’s what it takes. But it’s painful to me to be lumped together with unpatriotic Americans who “deserted” their country.”
I renounced my US citizenship. It was painful for me because I am a veteran and very patriotic about the principles upon which America was founded. But I didn’t desert America; America deserted me.
CBT is abusive and morally wrong. The American colonists went to war over it and declared independence in 1776. So my conscience is clear and patriotism in tact, which is much more than what the US government and many Homelanders can honestly say for themselves.
But it’s painful to me to be lumped together with unpatriotic Americans who “deserted” their country.”
Regarding “PATRIOTISM”
Who said this?
Patriotism is nothing but loyalty to real estate, real estate that has been conquered 800 different times by 800 different regimes with 800 different cultures. But each time it’s just the best.
(House, MD , Risky Business)
A warning to Canadians:
“The US is all pumped up from the red meat that Switzerland served them, and we should be very very concerned that Canadian banks already fit the profile that many “culpable” Swiss banks do under the current “US Programme” in Switzerland.”
Nice work, Victoria. Thank you.
What was painful to me was being systematically attacked by the US government and continually portrayed in the media as “tax cheats”, “rich fat cats” and so on. The pain went away when I finally shed my US citizenship. They can do what ever they want down there; I really don’t care anymore.
I’ll save my patriotism for my adopted country. Canada is far more deserving.
About that article which we should be commenting on, I said with regard to US Citizens living in Canada: ” A high proportion is found around Algonquin Park and Blue mountain, as well as SE BC; northern BC and Yukon, and Vancouver Island. These are all places where people retire to (except Northern BC/ Yukon) or at least have second residences.” After some thought I cynically concluded that this is where the so called draft dodgers of the 1960s fled to… its kind of rural and beautiful, and easy to hide from federal agents. Which brings up two questions. Are these people all dual USA/Canada or pure US citizens who retire in Canada and need to report to CRA (I think the former). And, what are the age demographics of duals? I think it is skewed towards older people. Also there is no key for the colours. This must be on some government website.
@Wilderness, you are the reason I do this. I cannot believe that people who served in the military are being subjected to this! I apologized to every person in my family who served when I knew I would have to renounce. Say what you will and I am a liberal and I do not condone war but, I have seen what these people give and what it costs them and I will never forgive the fact that some who served are now having to renounce. It sickens me to the core.
My uncle gave all and lost all. After Vietnam two tours and one tour before that in Korea he was a broken man. A man I loved, respected and would have done anything to “fix” if I could have. I could not. He died six months before I renounced and we talked about these issues. For the very fact that I had to engage such a man is that conversation while he was ill with lung cancer I will NEVER forgive the U.S. government unless and until a full apology is made. And btw one of the MOST American things I have ever done is to protest this unjust law.
To all the have contributed to this site, I thank you. I am a US/Canadian citizen by birth and served in Vietnam with 3 Purple Hearts – Our plan was to move from the United States prior to FATCA but as a result of FATCA I am faced with the real possibility that I will renounce my citizenship as part of that move. The US government is completely out of control internally and FATCA shows how far it will go to “enforce” its will on other citizens of the world. These are difficult and sad times.
@paid the price
Welcome. It would make being resident in Canada a lot less complicated, wouldn’t it?
Thank you for your comment, Paid the Price.
I have included it in this that I have sent to my personal contacts, friends, colleagues, family:
From: caroltapanila
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:49 AM
To: James Fitz-Morris ; Amber Hildebrandt, CBC
Subject: For you or anyone you know who is a US Person Abroad – Submission to US Senate Finance Committee
I’d be honoured if you would take the time to read this submission to the US Senate Finance Committee re FATCA and US citizenship-based taxation and pass it along to anyone you know who may be affected.
“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” -Mark Twain
Paid the Price
Submitted on 2014/01/28 at 12:15 pm
To all the have contributed to this site, I thank you. I am a US/Canadian citizen by birth and served in Vietnam with 3 Purple Hearts – Our plan was to move from the United States prior to FATCA but as a result of FATCA I am faced with the real possibility that I will renounce my citizenship as part of that move. The US government is completely out of control internally and FATCA shows how far it will go to “enforce” its will on other citizens of the world. These are difficult and sad times.
From a comment re Dr. Kish, one of the co-authors:
I know of Kish, yes, miracle worker absolute.
If this submission doesn’t change the taxation laws then I will totally stand by the comments that I made on the thread before this one.
He is a top, Prof. at CAMH and being a top medical director understands the effects that persecution and emotional stress has on an individual. He pulls a lot of weight in high places in Canada and the USA and would be difficult to ignore. I wouldn’t want to be Harper if he doesn’t listen to Kish and the others. https://www.michaeljfox.org/foundation/researchers.php?id=391
He is a top researcher on Parkinsons and recipient of funding from Michael J Fox. Quite likely he was taught by or an associate of one of my previous doctors at UBC who taught Pharmacology and is head of the TI at UBC, not entirely sure.
We couldn’t do any better from the standpoint of his lobbying the government on the social and financial costs of having a million or more people suffering PTSD from being persecuted … and his reach is far far beyond Canada into the top psychiatric echelons of the USA and the ASAM which has huge influence on the medical community all across the USA and likely into the inner workings of Obama care although I’m just speculating on that one.
Never give up; never give up; never give up.
Thanks,
Carol Tapanila
One of the problems is that different countries have very different profiles of people linked to the U.S. The U.S. citizens in Canada are linked with geography. I would imagine that Mexicans would not be wealthy; however, I have looked at the profile for the U.K. to see if it is at all like the Canadian profile and it is fairly affluent ($50,000 a year average income in 2005/6 for people born in the U.S.) with the highest concentrations of population in the super wealthy areas. This sort of profile is one of the reasons why the U.S. is unlikely to give up on citizenship based taxation (the banker Bob Diamond pays huge amounts to the U.S. treasury every year). At the same time, there are Americans in the U.S. on modest incomes. If you really are wealthy, U.S. taxation is in ways easier to navigate because you can afford to have your wealth manager handle compliance. Also, living in Britain for a short time is very different from being a long-term resident in terms of tax.
@kermitzii –
Are you on a Mac? We had another report of the key not being visible from a Mac user.
In any case, if it’s not visible, it’s: self-identified US citizens (US-only, US-Canadian dual and a very small number of US-third country duals) as a percentage of population from the 2006 census, with colours as follows, dark to light:
Over 1.5%
1-1.5%
0.5-1%
0-0.5%
None
@Publius
I wouldn’t rely too much on these statistics as being conclusive. It shows that of the 1M estimated to live in Canada, only 300,000 identified themselves as USC’s. The question is, do those who self-identified represent good cross-section of Americans who live in Canada? I doubt it, considering a great number of people who are USC’s don’t consider themselves to be. I’d like to know how many of those who claimed to be USC’s knew about their US tax filing obligations. It’s cynical, but my guess is by next year there will be fewer people anywhere willing to admit they are USC’s, unless of course it’s to renounce US citizenship.
@ bubblebustin “It’s cynical, but my guess is by next year there will be fewer people anywhere willing to admit they are USC’s, unless of course it’s to renounce US citizenship.”
nope it’s not cynical….it’s the truth….if anyone were to ask me even going back 25 or more years what my citizenship was the answer would have been….canadian and oh except i was born in the states. and that holds true even more today than 25 plus years ago….my only mistake was not telling the u.s. gov’t i was leaving and never coming back.
@Publius (Besides the fact that any survey is dependent upon what segment responds to the request to be surveyed, and despite that those who answer may not be accurate.)
Perhaps that average or mean statistic is high in comparison to something else, but $50,000 certainly is not high income.
Wealthy Americans do NOT bank at Postfinance, a banking institution affiliated with the Swiss Post, although many ordinary Americans residing in Switzerland do. A message board in Switzerland is reporting that Postfinance is blocking Americans’ accounts until they supply FBAR copies, including for 2013 (which would be due by June 30, 2014). This appears to be due to the OVDI program for Swiss banks (sometimes called “US Programme”) rather than FATCA. See comments at:
#1 UncleTell, Feb 12
#30 Mennofloyd, Feb 27
#54 Mr Mert, Mar 7
Might also wish to read #67 by Mr Mert, Mar 8.
Two myths about Americans abroad that are perpetuated in the US are: 1) they are wealthy and/ or 2) they are living on tax-equalized expat packages with company-furnished apartment, car and international school for the children. A study of foreigners, including from the US, who moved to Zurich in the past several years indicates that 2.5% are temporary expats, who would often have an expat relocation package, and the other 97.5% are more permanent expats/ emigrants who are on on their own to find accommodations, transportation and schooling for the kids. A translation of the NZZ article on this topic:
@Mark Twain says
Yes, a person earning $50,000 certainly isn’t considered rich unless they also have $1,000,000 in liquid assets, which is rare; however, I would note that form 8983 has a much lower limit than this. The IRS are clearly interested in the affluent, not just the rich. In one of the congressional hearings that I read that the the IRS at one point looked at the overseas filings and noted filers who had earnings earned considerably more than U.S. taxpayers in general and therefore assumed that non-filers were also likely to be more affluent. Of course, they seem to have missed the first week of statistics class when unrepresentative samples were discussed, since they were extrapolating from overseas filers to make assumptions about non-filers. The quadrant that excited them started a little over $60,000, so not that far above the U.K. average for the U.S. born. My point was merely that the figures for the U.K. would look different.
One might expect this these kinds of stereotypes from citizens who believe that their country is exceptional, just as you would expect some to believe the rubbish about the US being the world’s policeman (Keystone Kops come to mind). It doesn’t help do dispel these myths when nations that should should act like equal partners are choosing to fall under the command of the US Treasury.
@Whitekat
I sent this on to my MP.
just a few seconds ago.
Thanks for putting this up. I have been away all day.
Here is another that deserves it’s own thread:
http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/27/toxic-citizen-the-misery-of-being-an-american-abroad/
Petros
Do you also write for Federalist?
The map with the proportion of the population who are US citzens is actually for all of Canada (zoom it out, or use the arrow button to scroll around). A high proportion is found around Algonquin Park and Blue mountain, as well as SE BC; northern BC and Yukon, and Vancouver Island. These are all places where people retire to (except Northern BC/ Yukon) or at least have second residences. I don’t really understand this.
Petros
Dumb me there is a contributor list at Federalist.
Great article, but I don’t agree with this part:
“To me, my American citizenship is priceless. We live in England because my husband’s career is here for now. I hope we’ll move back to the US in a few years. I don’t mind paying an accountant to sort out my taxes if that’s what it takes. But it’s painful to me to be lumped together with unpatriotic Americans who “deserted” their country.”
I renounced my US citizenship. It was painful for me because I am a veteran and very patriotic about the principles upon which America was founded. But I didn’t desert America; America deserted me.
CBT is abusive and morally wrong. The American colonists went to war over it and declared independence in 1776. So my conscience is clear and patriotism in tact, which is much more than what the US government and many Homelanders can honestly say for themselves.
But it’s painful to me to be lumped together with unpatriotic Americans who “deserted” their country.”
Regarding “PATRIOTISM”
Who said this?
Patriotism is nothing but loyalty to real estate, real estate that has been conquered 800 different times by 800 different regimes with 800 different cultures. But each time it’s just the best.
(House, MD , Risky Business)
A warning to Canadians:
“The US is all pumped up from the red meat that Switzerland served them, and we should be very very concerned that Canadian banks already fit the profile that many “culpable” Swiss banks do under the current “US Programme” in Switzerland.”
Nice work, Victoria. Thank you.
What was painful to me was being systematically attacked by the US government and continually portrayed in the media as “tax cheats”, “rich fat cats” and so on. The pain went away when I finally shed my US citizenship. They can do what ever they want down there; I really don’t care anymore.
I’ll save my patriotism for my adopted country. Canada is far more deserving.
About that article which we should be commenting on, I said with regard to US Citizens living in Canada: ” A high proportion is found around Algonquin Park and Blue mountain, as well as SE BC; northern BC and Yukon, and Vancouver Island. These are all places where people retire to (except Northern BC/ Yukon) or at least have second residences.” After some thought I cynically concluded that this is where the so called draft dodgers of the 1960s fled to… its kind of rural and beautiful, and easy to hide from federal agents. Which brings up two questions. Are these people all dual USA/Canada or pure US citizens who retire in Canada and need to report to CRA (I think the former). And, what are the age demographics of duals? I think it is skewed towards older people. Also there is no key for the colours. This must be on some government website.
@Wilderness, you are the reason I do this. I cannot believe that people who served in the military are being subjected to this! I apologized to every person in my family who served when I knew I would have to renounce. Say what you will and I am a liberal and I do not condone war but, I have seen what these people give and what it costs them and I will never forgive the fact that some who served are now having to renounce. It sickens me to the core.
My uncle gave all and lost all. After Vietnam two tours and one tour before that in Korea he was a broken man. A man I loved, respected and would have done anything to “fix” if I could have. I could not. He died six months before I renounced and we talked about these issues. For the very fact that I had to engage such a man is that conversation while he was ill with lung cancer I will NEVER forgive the U.S. government unless and until a full apology is made. And btw one of the MOST American things I have ever done is to protest this unjust law.
To all the have contributed to this site, I thank you. I am a US/Canadian citizen by birth and served in Vietnam with 3 Purple Hearts – Our plan was to move from the United States prior to FATCA but as a result of FATCA I am faced with the real possibility that I will renounce my citizenship as part of that move. The US government is completely out of control internally and FATCA shows how far it will go to “enforce” its will on other citizens of the world. These are difficult and sad times.
@paid the price
Welcome. It would make being resident in Canada a lot less complicated, wouldn’t it?
Thank you for your comment, Paid the Price.
I have included it in this that I have sent to my personal contacts, friends, colleagues, family:
One of the problems is that different countries have very different profiles of people linked to the U.S. The U.S. citizens in Canada are linked with geography. I would imagine that Mexicans would not be wealthy; however, I have looked at the profile for the U.K. to see if it is at all like the Canadian profile and it is fairly affluent ($50,000 a year average income in 2005/6 for people born in the U.S.) with the highest concentrations of population in the super wealthy areas. This sort of profile is one of the reasons why the U.S. is unlikely to give up on citizenship based taxation (the banker Bob Diamond pays huge amounts to the U.S. treasury every year). At the same time, there are Americans in the U.S. on modest incomes. If you really are wealthy, U.S. taxation is in ways easier to navigate because you can afford to have your wealth manager handle compliance. Also, living in Britain for a short time is very different from being a long-term resident in terms of tax.
@kermitzii –
Are you on a Mac? We had another report of the key not being visible from a Mac user.
In any case, if it’s not visible, it’s: self-identified US citizens (US-only, US-Canadian dual and a very small number of US-third country duals) as a percentage of population from the 2006 census, with colours as follows, dark to light:
Over 1.5%
1-1.5%
0.5-1%
0-0.5%
None
@Publius
I wouldn’t rely too much on these statistics as being conclusive. It shows that of the 1M estimated to live in Canada, only 300,000 identified themselves as USC’s. The question is, do those who self-identified represent good cross-section of Americans who live in Canada? I doubt it, considering a great number of people who are USC’s don’t consider themselves to be. I’d like to know how many of those who claimed to be USC’s knew about their US tax filing obligations. It’s cynical, but my guess is by next year there will be fewer people anywhere willing to admit they are USC’s, unless of course it’s to renounce US citizenship.
@ bubblebustin “It’s cynical, but my guess is by next year there will be fewer people anywhere willing to admit they are USC’s, unless of course it’s to renounce US citizenship.”
nope it’s not cynical….it’s the truth….if anyone were to ask me even going back 25 or more years what my citizenship was the answer would have been….canadian and oh except i was born in the states. and that holds true even more today than 25 plus years ago….my only mistake was not telling the u.s. gov’t i was leaving and never coming back.
@Publius (Besides the fact that any survey is dependent upon what segment responds to the request to be surveyed, and despite that those who answer may not be accurate.)
Perhaps that average or mean statistic is high in comparison to something else, but $50,000 certainly is not high income.
Wealthy Americans do NOT bank at Postfinance, a banking institution affiliated with the Swiss Post, although many ordinary Americans residing in Switzerland do. A message board in Switzerland is reporting that Postfinance is blocking Americans’ accounts until they supply FBAR copies, including for 2013 (which would be due by June 30, 2014). This appears to be due to the OVDI program for Swiss banks (sometimes called “US Programme”) rather than FATCA. See comments at:
#1 UncleTell, Feb 12
#30 Mennofloyd, Feb 27
#54 Mr Mert, Mar 7
Might also wish to read #67 by Mr Mert, Mar 8.
http://www.englishforum.ch/finance-banking-taxation/200706-postfinace-demands-past-fbars.html
Two myths about Americans abroad that are perpetuated in the US are: 1) they are wealthy and/ or 2) they are living on tax-equalized expat packages with company-furnished apartment, car and international school for the children. A study of foreigners, including from the US, who moved to Zurich in the past several years indicates that 2.5% are temporary expats, who would often have an expat relocation package, and the other 97.5% are more permanent expats/ emigrants who are on on their own to find accommodations, transportation and schooling for the kids. A translation of the NZZ article on this topic:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nzz.ch%2Faktuell%2Fzuerich%2Fuebersicht%2Fhochqualifizierte-sind-sozial-schlecht-integriert-1.18256603
@Mark Twain says
Yes, a person earning $50,000 certainly isn’t considered rich unless they also have $1,000,000 in liquid assets, which is rare; however, I would note that form 8983 has a much lower limit than this. The IRS are clearly interested in the affluent, not just the rich. In one of the congressional hearings that I read that the the IRS at one point looked at the overseas filings and noted filers who had earnings earned considerably more than U.S. taxpayers in general and therefore assumed that non-filers were also likely to be more affluent. Of course, they seem to have missed the first week of statistics class when unrepresentative samples were discussed, since they were extrapolating from overseas filers to make assumptions about non-filers. The quadrant that excited them started a little over $60,000, so not that far above the U.K. average for the U.S. born. My point was merely that the figures for the U.K. would look different.
One might expect this these kinds of stereotypes from citizens who believe that their country is exceptional, just as you would expect some to believe the rubbish about the US being the world’s policeman (Keystone Kops come to mind). It doesn’t help do dispel these myths when nations that should should act like equal partners are choosing to fall under the command of the US Treasury.