This document — US Citizens Living in Canada — Income Tax Considerations dated February 2013 — just floated up out of the surf. This may be old hat. It may be new hat for a newbie. In any case, FWIW. Here’s a link to the 6-page fancy pdf:
http://www.bmo.com/pdf/nesbitt/USCitizensLivingInCanada_Eng%20-%20BMO%20NB.pdf
Thanks badger. Still trying to figure this thing out. I do not like it, not one bit.
Part III Information on Financial Account(s) Owned Jointly
Principle Joint Owner Information
In a drop down box they ask for a TIN type. The choices are EIN or SSN/ITIN or “foreign” (meaning SIN or passport number I believe). We used to just put n/a Canadian citizen in that spot on the old FBAR but I doubt the new form will accept that. I don’t see how any “foreign” person should be compelled to give the USA their “TIN type”. It’s so bloody intrusive.
I have no idea how to get a signature on an electronic form. I think I’ll get my husband to beg for a paper form by calling FinCEN Regulatory Helpline at 800-949-2732.
Em
When you were in USA did you submit a joint tax return?
They probably know you are a US person because of Green card.
That could have forced you to get a SSN because of green card. I know that green card holde who work need to get a SSN.
They may then argue that you husband has not properly filled his last bunch of taxes.
He may be compliant but you may not be. They then can say because you are non compliant and he is married to you he is technically non compliant for bank accounts.
Because he just became a Canadian, he may not receive protection for false IRS return. (e.g not listing your SSN). You may want to talk to a Canadian lawyer for more info.
Excellent Forbes article (Jan 27/2014) to share with all your fellow us-expats and all your large (and particularly your small investment consultants to find out how this is going to effect you and them.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/01/27/is-opposing-fatca-supporting-tax-evasion/
The CIBC bank here in Canada has sent me an email inviting clients to “Join us for Client Appreciation Day on Thursday, January 30th.” I plan to accept their invitation and use the opportunity to ask the branch manager about their approach to FATCA compliance, if I can do so without showing them any ID. I hope they won’t be able to use face-recognition technology to link my picture on their security cameras to my account information. Since I already am waiting to see if they are going to find other reasons to ask if I am a “U.S. person” (I’m not and have CLN to prove it), I don’t want my visit this Thursday to jeopardize that passive test of their procedures. Of course, on Thursday I will be inquiring on behalf of my friend Isaac Brock, who is concerned about FATCA.
@AnonAnon
You mean your friend Izzy Brock?
AnonAno
You need more than the CLN you need to self certify or do a W8 that you are no longer a US citizen for tax purposes. That would mean 8854 done.
This is based on UK Fatca agreement
How about a thread on the government response to Liberal MP questions?
@ AnonAnon
Great idea! We all should do things like this and report back.
We have asked our branch mgr to find out about FACTA (at TD-CT); so far, he hasn’t been able to find out anything! Perhaps TC-CT is waiting to determine if our govt will sign an agreement with IRS, getting the banks off the hook.
If my bank accounts are closed (I’ve been a customer for about 40 years), I might just think of taking up a post outside our local (or the major downtown) branch with a protest placard – – any suggestions for what to (succinctly) put on the placard?
Brock’s got that covered, LM 🙂
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/anti-fatca-slogans-for-protest-signs/
How about: “THIS BANK CLOSED MY ACCOUNT BECAUSE THEY THINK I’M AN AMERICAN”
Yeah, we have a bunch of protest stuff — in addition to Bubblebustin’s suggestion, go to the sidebar under “Important Information,” click on “FATCA Fact Sheet and Protest/Publicity Materials”. The slogan list can be accessed from there too.
And new materials,slogan suggestions, etc, always welcome! Adding yours now, Maz 🙂
@GeorgeIII,
If my bank isn’t satisfied with a CLN, that’s going to be a problem for them. In that case they will lose me as a client. I have no idea whether the IRS considers me still to be a “U.S. person” for tax purposes, despite the CLN attesting that I relinquished my actual US citizenship over 30 years ago. As far as I am concerned, I don’t owe the IRS anything, not even communication.
CLN 30 years ago did not have to do 8854. I think there is different requirements for pre 1987, pre 1993, pre 2004, pre 2008. Does someone here have all these threads. Benedict Arnold had a thread somewhere. Bank are unlikely to close accounts, brokerage accounts have the ability to close account with 30 day notice.
This case is a strong precedent
http://uniset.ca/other/cs6/68OR2d379.html
How about a thread on the government response to liberal mp questions.
@ George III,
I don’t see where that’s coming from, about banks requiring 8854s. The CLN is a stand-alone document, its validity not contingent on the filing of an 8854.
You’ve referenced the UK Agreement regarding this in your comment at 1.21 above. The procedure for identifying US persons is described in Annex I of the UK FATCA Agreement and in s. 4 a)(3), it states:
You have to complete a 8854 to be consider not a US citizen for tax purposes
ate of Tax Expatriation
“For purposes of filling out Part I, the date of your expatriation is the later of the date you notified the relevant agency of your expatriating act or the date Form 8854 was first filed in accordance with these instructions. Apply the rules of section 7502 to determine the date on which this form is filed. Generally, the postmark date is the filing date.
Until you file Form 8854 and notify the Department of State or the Department of Homeland Security of your expatriating act, your expatriation for immigration purposes does not relieve you of your obligation to file U.S. tax returns and report your worldwide income as a citizen or resident of the United States.”
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/23/the-stalker-the-messy-divorce-process-from-the-united-states/
“If I had relinquished before 1995, I would under no circumstances yield to any of these filing requirements. It may be necessary to obtain a CLN to prove to the bank that one is not a US citizen and to idiot US border guards who insist that you are US citizen because of your place of birth. But I wouldn’t give even one single inch of latitude to the lame brains in the IRS. Why? Because I don’t see how the Form 8854 requirement could stand scrutiny of jurisprudence, since the requirement clearly contradicts itself. But then, the courts are known for making lame decisions.”
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/14/instructions-for-form-8854-are-clearly-contradictory/
Expert: Barbara replied 8 months ago.
bkb1956 :
Welcome and thank you for giving me the opportunity to assist you with your tax question.
bkb1956 :
Until you file Form 8854 and notify the Department of State or the Department of Homeland Security of your expatriating act, your expatriation for immigration purposes does not relieve you of your obligation to file U.S. tax returns and report your worldwide income as a citizen or resident of the United States.
bkb1956 :
Once Form 8854 has been filed, you will not be required to report your worldwide income to the IRS.
bkb1956 :
Please let me know if I can assist you further. If not, please take a moment to rate my answer to you since that is an important part of being an expert on JustAnswer, and I strive for excellence. Thank you and best regards.
bkb1956 :
I have appointments until late this afternoon. If you require further clarification, please post your concern, and I will answer you upon my return. At my end it’s showing that you are currently off-line. I will switch to Q&A to make sure that you can view my responses. Thank you.
http://www.justanswer.com/tax/7qtpq-need-complete-tax-form-8854-expatriation-want.html
“Step 3: File Form 8854
You must file a Form 8854 to notify the IRS of the change in your status. Until you file this form, you will continue to be treated as if you were still a US citizen or Green Card holder for tax purposes.”
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-10-15/us-canada-news/34471897_1_green-card-treaty-country-citizenship
Pacifica do you want more example of the need to file an 8854.
Of course you can lie on a W8.
If the Canadian government will not collect US taxes and the revenue rule, is lying on a US tax form prosecutable in Canada? Especially if you have no US income.
Hi bubblebustin – – thanks for the link to all the slogans – – I guess I’m just discovering just how broad the info is here at IBS! Emailing some of my US friends living in Canada I describe FATCA as a “Financial Tsunami” as well as the US’s “Financial World War Via Paperwork”.
BTW, has anyone on IBS written to the US main TV and/or radio news stations (e.g. CNN, NPR) to ask why none of these news outlets have made FATCA as much of a prominent issue as the gunning down of 2 teenagers in the Mall? I mean, this is a war against the US’s own citizens, touching 7 million citizens who decided to leave the homeland nest (weren’t they encouraged to do so? Spread US business around the globe….?) It seems time for CNN to start a series of rants about FATCA trying to catch the wealthy/foxy tax-cheats with a nuclear bomb which will wipe us all out …..
Just was told about the recent Democrats Abroad report on FATCA. According to Ken Sherman of DA in Canada, DA reps will be going to DC to meet with some legislators and the IRS Advocate in early March. I’ve asked to be on the list of folks getting an update if at all possible tho could probably just look at the DA site now and then in early March. Good to know that they too are doing their best to soften the edge of FATCA.
https://www.democratsabroad.org/group/da-international/fbarfatca-task-force-page-updated
I went to a CIBC branch today on invitation to “customer appreciation day”. The branch is a fairly good-sized one; so the people there should be well-informed about their business. None of the three people I spoke to had any idea what FATCA is, even when I told them what the acronym stands for. The suggested that since it involves taxes, I should ask the CRA about it.
My conclusion is that CIBC is keeping most of its employees and certainly its customers in the dark about FATCA. I can’t find anything explaining FATCA on its web site. I think the management of the bank are hoping that either FATCA enforcement will be delayed further or the Canadian government will take it off their hands by signing an IGA. Meanwhile, they don’t want to scare their customers by mentioning it.
Today I also located a branch of a Canadian credit union in my area so I can join that and move some accounts there in protest if CIBC inquires later on about my status as a “U.S. person”.
@ AnonAnon
Today I also located a branch of a Canadian credit union in my area so I can join that and move some accounts there in protest if CIBC inquires later on about my status as a “U.S. person”.
My husband has opened a “Big 5″ account for the sole purpose (almost) of being able to close it and stomp out of that bank to a nearby credit union if or when they ever ask him ” the question”. Of course he hopes it will be after he has a CLN. (Sure hope he doesn’t end up waiting a year for it like some have done.) He’s doing a sort of use ’em then lose “em” maneuver as payback for the Big 5 betrayal of urging our government to sign an IGA. Wicked? Yes I think so. Very big 🙂
@Em
Maybe you can convince the CBC to film the event 🙂
You are a wicked one too, bubblebustin. 😉 Can you imagine the effect if someday the CBC showed one angry accused USP after another stomping out of the Big 5 banks with their savings in their hands?
It might just happen, Em.