Frustration, exhaustion, and a sense of impending disaster appear to lurk among those Brockers and Sandboxers who have had FATCA on their minds more frequently in a day than teenagers think about sex. We are at a crossroads here in Canada. Our Conservative government is about to make history; we all feel it here in this place we call the Isaac Brock Society, which is much more than just a website. We all hope that the history our government is about to make is the ‘right’ one.
Many citizens of the world, not just Canadians, have contributed their individual talents, and personal attributes in countless ways to educate those who do not understand FATCA, which is no easy task! It is not my intention for this post to name them all, or describe what they have done, but we know, and they know, and everyone reading this who values human rights and freedoms knows.
Sadly, we are not there yet. Most Canadians have never heard of FATCA. Most people in the world have never heard of FATCA, nor have they heard of citizenship based taxation. Intuitively, almost everyone gets it that it is unfair to tax people who do not live in the taxing country, and do not earn income there. Unfortunately, most people don’t connect the dots between the bad, unfair things that happen to ‘other people’ with the bad, unfair things that could happen to them.
Our job is to educate the masses, so that our voice becomes much LOUDER. We have been trying, but people in Canada, and the USA are easily distracted with things such as the antics of Rob Ford. How sad is it that little media attention was paid to a group of Canadian citizens who spent 2 days in the cold demonstrating on 18 inches of curb outside a meeting held by Canadian bankers who were discussing how to smoke out the ‘US Persons’ among us?
It is not over people. We haven’t lost. And we are not going to. We have accomplished too much to give up now. However, Mr, and Mrs, Joe Canadian are still asleep in front of their computers and TV sets. If they could hear us, they would be on our side, and at our defense. We have a voice that Canadian politicians and bankers, and US politicians and bankers, have definitely heard. They fear us, as they should, and they hope we will go away so that Mr and Mrs Joe Canadian don’t ever wake up. We won’t go away!
So, how do we get the critical mass that we need to effect change? I don’t have the answers, but I am confident that the group does. Every day, as the ripple of knowledge spreads, more and more individuals discover the group of people at IsaacBrockSociety and come to us full of passion, and talent to offer in this fight.
For example, someone whose name I won’t mention because I am not sure if he/she wants me to, took our Canadian FATCA fact sheet and used his/her graphic design skills to transform a bunch of words into something eye catching and alarming. Check out the PDF version of the Canadian FATCA fact sheet linked to on our side bar. Maybe someone else can come up with a WORD version. Imagine if everyone across Canada saw it! Imagine if 10,000 people saw it, and .01% of those decided to participate in a public demonstration against FATCA. Imagine 100 people in a public demonstration at Parliament Hill. Do you think anyone would notice? I think they would.
@ WhiteKat
You are right. I am going to do my best to spread the word. I would like to print a thousand and post them on poles and trees and leave them on cars and buses, the subway and go trains.
Send the sheet to CARP, council of Canadians, the legion, senior clubs. Not everyone will care but if we touch one than we may get the ripple effect. It is difficult to face such indifference. I am waiting for one response from my friends for the petition. Nothing so far.
All we can do is keep trying.
WhiteKat,
Thanks for your, as you know, timely wise words. We all need to pull ourselves up from despair from time to time. The person you refer to has put a new spark into our fight. Our thanks for that.
Your most important point and one we must work on:
I did something this week and I’m kicking myself for not doing it sooner. I phoned my MP’s constituency office and requested a face to face meeting. I’ve sent him countless e-mails and snail mails which he forwarded to Canadian Finance Minister Jim Flaherty who responded with his robo letters and fact sheets. It’s time to step up my efforts. I have an appointment with MP David Tilson in December.
I highly recommend that all Brockers contact their local MP’s and request a face to face. Also, do we have any Brockers living in Jim Flaherty’s riding? Since Flaherty is part of the Cabinet, can anyone request an appointment with him? Has anyone tried?
“Frustration, exhaustion, and a sense of impending disaster” perfectly describes how I’ve felt for the last 18 months. I’m quite sick of it.
So WhitKat…
The question is, how does someone connect Rob Ford and Crack Cocaine to FATCA…? Then we could hear good discussions in U.S. Media about how Gawker smoked him out!
http://www.onthemedia.org/story/where-theres-smoke-theres-ceasefire/
Just Me. Exactly — there must be some ‘muricans involved in all that distraction. Sad commentary that’s where all the media effort goes as that’s what we seem to demand: entertainment / soap opera / buffoonery — be it Rob Ford or the Senate in Canada right now. Another day, another similar distraction.
I love the graphic FACTA sheet! I’ve already printed it up. It can be trimmed to smaller than a full sheet too which makes it easier to find a spot to put it up on our crowded community bulletin boards. Your encouraging words are coming at a good time, WhiteKat. Imagine a flashmob singing and dancing to American Taxman! 😉
Good luck with that face-to-face, Marie. I only found enough courage to do a meet-up with my MP’s very personable assistant who seemed to be quite sympathetic. My MP resigned shortly afterwards.
@all
I would just like to add some words of encouragement from the other end of the world …. New Zealand.
There is no critical mass of USP here, so it is a lonely battle writing to treasury, cabinet ministers and media attempting to educate them about the realities of FATCA and CBT. They generally don’t get it or don’t care, maybe both. Without the folks at IBS, it would be even more of a lonely, uphill battle. The knowledge that you guys are fighting this as hard as anyone possibly could in Canada is uplifting to all of us in other parts of the world, and gives us hope that we can eventually overcome this beast.
We share your “frustration, exhaustion, and a sense of impending disaster”. I am waiting with trepidation for New Zealand to announce the signing of the IGA in the near future, but pray they will at least wait to see what happens in Canada.
I would like to express my personal thanks and admiration for everything that you are doing. You are not alone and we are all with you in spirit, wherever we are in the world. Please keep up the fantastic work you are doing, especially recently. The momentum is building… you can see it in the increase in media reports round the world …. THANKS TO YOU GUYS!
Anyone know where Australia is heading re IGA? Too few concerned. I only know one or two. I’d be lost without the commiseration available here at IBS.
Take heart! We are thousands of km away cheering for you, while surrounded by total ignorance about the consequences of FATCA in the “other down under”.
Has anyone noticed that the French IGA seems to have relaxed some of the dates a bit? Now the FFIs are supposed to identify US account holder info as of July 1 2014 – if a further 6 month delay is agreed then that would push it to Jan 1 2015. One can only hope. Regarding the IGA for Oz – that IGA is also not yet agreed/signed and talks are continuing so there is still an opportunity to object but not sure how successful that will be. Canada and IBS are doing exactly what is needed to focus the issues and raise the objections. If Canada agrees to an IGA I would hope that class actions would be filed without delay. No one knows what China will do. Thailand has now agreed to engage in negotiations on an IGA.
Also, I have not seen any numbers on how many FFIs have signed up on the Treasury web portal. That would be a reasonable subject for an FOIA request at some point.
Would IBS consider doing an opinion poll in the middle of Toronto say 500 to 1000 people and publish the results? It would be use to publish 88% of Canadians polled answered no to “Do you think Canadian citizens banking details should be passed to the IRS? Yes or No or some other suitable wording.
It probably wouldn’t take long in the middle of busy Toronto to speak to 500 people.
Would Stephen Harper care if 88% were against? Perhaps not unless he thought he was going to start to lose seats.
If an IGA is signed then the only way forward is to look at legal ways to carve out Canadian citizens (whether dual or not) perhaps by claiming the IGA discriminates against Canadian citizens.
@WhiteKat
Thanks for this post.
IMHO Brockers and Sandboxers need to step back and imagine this from the perspective of someone who doesn’t understand this. The people on this blog have been at this for so long that they can’t describe FATCA and CBT simply.
1. What FATCA is; is different from
2. How FATCA is implemented (IGAs, etc)
The comments about FATCA no longer make any distinction between these two issues. I strongly suggest that the focus return to what FATCA is. It’s easier to understand.
The people on this blog (myself included) are very angry. Do you like to be around angry people? It is hard to communicate is you are angry. Therefore, a new and friendly site needs to be created and it must stay friendly.
We are doing a great job with “getting a message out” (protests, etc) but NOT a good job on what the message is. People just want to know how FATCA and CBT affects them personally.
Some possible suggestions:
July 1, 2014: The day the IRS Commissioner replaces the Prime Minister
It’s 11:00 p.m. – Do you know who your retirement savings are working for?
Your Canadian mutual funds are for the mutual benefit of Americans.
Selling your house? President Obama wants his cut!
The TD Bank is turning your banking information over to the IRS.
FATCA is NOT about the boardroom table. It’s about the kitchen table.
President Obama has no business in the bedrooms of the Nation.
As a Canadian you ARE the retirement plan for Americans.
Dont’ steal from Canadians! President Obama doesn’t like competition.
Why should Canadians pay for Obamacare?
Are you hiding money from the IRS by using a Canadian Controlled Private Corporation?
____Bank Customers: You are now required to register with the IRS.
U.S. citizenship – The new ground for divorce!
Considering adoption? Make sure you don’t adopt a baby born in the U.S.
etc.
These slogans along with some nice graphics would generate more interest than the technical discussion.
Also, a new FATCA Info Site needs to be created. It should include only the bare bones and make no attempt at completeness.
Thank you WhiteKat for this inspiring post, and for all you and Atticus have done. Thankyou to guardian, Gordian, and osgood for the encouragement.
@Marie, and anyone else planning to do this, good luck with speaking to the MP. Remember, we are with you in spirit, and so is anyone with any ethics or concern for fairness and justice. Even if they aren’t welcoming, you have the absolute right as a legal resident, citizen and taxpayer to ask for their time and assistance.
One can send them background information ahead of time, as well as leaving some for them to look at afterwards. If they are a Conservative, be prepared that when they first speak with you they might be somewhat sympathetic and encouraging, but then after speaking with the Finance Minister’s office, they may respond with a version of the same canned statements we’ve gotten recently, and some garbled excuses as to why not that many people will be affected, blah, blah. The issue of the RDSPs and the US double taxation of disability grants, benefits, and Canadian born children/dependents (RDSP, RESP) is particularly damning for them and the US. Pointing out that even the terms of the current US-Canada treaty is already woefully inadequate – can change unilaterally at US domestic whim, and already does not protect us from extraterritorial double taxation and on (among other things) our registered savings from being considered ‘taxable foreign trusts’, US capital gains tax on the sale of our Canadian principal residence, and the US prevention of minors and those deemed incompetent from renouncing means that for the US, and for our Finance Minister, this is a particularly bad optic that is made exponentially worse by FATCA. Treating children and those deemed incompetent as equivalent to terror-funding-druglord-money-laundering-UStaxevaders isn’t a winning optic for them either. Glossing over this is a problematic obstacle for them, but be prepared that they may try to minimize concerns by saying (inaccurately and based on no facts) that ‘not that many’ would be affected. Be prepared that they may try to refer to the 50,000. reporting threshold – as if that can’t change, and as if somehow we have only ourselves to blame if we now or in the future manage to get to that as an aggregate total savings at any time. And mentioning that we’ll ALL pay the costs of implementation now and forever via our taxes, plus ALL accountholders via increased banking fees to satisfy the US is something that cannot be refuted, and which does not hinge on our US status. ALL Canadians will pay both forever.
@all,
As part of a handout, a printed copy of the HRBlock price list (or equivalent) for US tax filing help http://www.hrblock.ca/services/US_tax_pricing.asp amply illustrates just how much any compliance costs an affected individual faces as a base rate – even for those who owe zero US taxes if they want to comply. You could even highlight the ones a typical Canadian taxpayer would pay for help with US filings from Canada – ex. the price for the 3520/3520-A for each and every ‘foreign trust’ RESP, RDSP, TFSA, plus the FBAR, plus the 1040, 8891 for RRSPs, etc. Contrast that with a copy of their price list for filing Canadian taxes http://www.hrblock.ca/services/pricing.asp .
@Don,
Excellent idea, asked near bank, Universities , bus stops, where people are waitng in line and it is a long line. Wish I live in TO I would do it.
@ USCitizen Abroad
More excellent ideas. I agree we have to get cheery. Angry is a turnoff.
Your slogans would look good with humorous art work.
People remember funny. Look how successful Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and Bill Maher are. It is reported most young people get their news from Stewart and Colbert who use sarcasm to speak the truth.
Perhaps some Brockers know some artists that can do the art to go with you fantastic one liners
@Marie
Did you get an appt date? Good luck. Great idea.
@badger
Thanks for link to HR block. Up to 1993 year I filed my own US Taxes. It is incredibly expensive and complicated now.
@USCitizenAbroad,
Thanks for the slogans! I added them to the slogan list, and your name on the contributor’s list. The slogan list is a permanent (and growing) page, accessible from the sidebar at “FATCA Fact sheet and publicity materials.”
Another idea I was thinking about was if IBS could get beer mats printed with the FATCA health warnings promoting IBS (you know the square card for pint glasses). Drinkers in Toronto pubs could visit the IBS website from their mobile phones right then and there.
The public transport ads would also be another excellent way. Get the riders aware of FATCA. Perhaps quick slogans like “FATCA doesn’t only affect Americans, it’s a Canadian problem too.”
Unless the wider public is educated and made aware FATCA is going to be hard work. Once bright spot the Canadian banking industry and politicians don’t want publicity either. They want this done all in secret with Canadian waking up in a post-IGA world wondering who sign this?
IBS should consider collecting money on it’s website and set up a PAC or charity or some legal entity to become a proper lobbying group. The Canadian Financial industry I’m sure are lobbying on the Hill hard to get the IGA signed to alleviate their upcoming withholding tax problem by selling out Canadian citizen’s data to the IRS.
The ‘call to arms’ message must get louder. However my get feeling this is going to be evolution not revolution with people figuring out ways to bypass FATCA by legal or other means.
The dedication on this website is tremendous, but equally it’s painfully obvious the next level has to be taken to make an impact. Otherwise Harper will sign the IGA in the dead of the night and Canadians will have to get use to proving they’re not a ‘US person’ forever barring legal appeals that don’t carve Canadian citizens out of FATCA.
@Don
Excellent ideas. I can donate money and try to do what I can up north I am not sure of the legaleseof the beer mats. but if you pay to advertise like on TTC and it is approved that could work. The bus stop shelters have big posters in an out of them.
@Northernstar
My appt with Mr. Tilson is in mid-December.
Thank you WhiteKat for this post – I see it has provided encouragement for a great many. I too have a HUGE appreciation for those who’ve made a contribution, big or small.
A few here have made the point that the issue is a matter of framing and how we need ways to captivate the rest of the general population. The word ‘dual’ has been wiped from our own vocabulary (thankfully) and we must continue to work to encourage others to view us as Canadians first and foremost. That I think is the hardest thing to overcome – being categorized and quarantined in the minds of our fellow Canadians.
@Marie,
Good for you for making an appointment to speak with your own MP. It is something that every one of us can do as an individual effort. We all have to step up and be counted.
The time allotted for my one-on-one meeting with my MP earlier this year was only 1/2 hour. I was allotted more time afterwards with another member of her constituency office. It felt very rushed and I did not have enough time for all I wanted to discuss (my son’s and others like him situation was a priority for me). Know exactly the most important points you wish to get across and do have documentation sent beforehand and that can then be referred to after the meeting.
The one question I remember from my MP was “What policy would you want the Canadian government to put in place?” I attended a ‘coffee and discussion’ meeting with my MP last week. When she got to me, she referred me to the person in her organization that deals with Policy and I will be invited to a meeting in February for the Policy Committee in Ms. Rempel’s riding (although policies will not be voted on within the Conservative Party until about two years from now, which I indicated was too late — FATCA was imminent).
Here are my prior comments at IBS regarding the meeting I had with my MP:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/04/24/most-canadians-remain-largely-unaware-of-their-privacy-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-334775
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/04/24/most-canadians-remain-largely-unaware-of-their-privacy-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-334912
I am now known to my MP’s constituency office and they likely put a face to my continued correspondence; I do feel I have been listened to; I have not, though, gotten any specific answers to my particular questions.
@Calgary411
Thank you for the advice. My meeting as well is limited to 30 min. The time is short so I am planning to have a short outline of the points I need to hit on. I need him to leave the meeting with an accurate description of FATCA and what the impact will be on Canadians, all Canadians. I plan to leave him with a FATCA fact sheet as well as a printed copy of Peter Hogg’s letter to the Min of Finance.
@Marie,
Excellent!
@Marie
I am now inspired to write to my British London MP and request a face to face in his constituency day. Although I have my CLN now and only have the 8854 plus the 1040/1040NR and all the other doorstop material, for the 2013 returns, I want to make him aware . Please could you post your “short outline of the points …need[ed] to hit on”? thanks in advance…..