FEBRUARY 27, 2014 UPDATE (In response to my MP’s two page “explanation” why his party decided to impose FATCA on Canada):
“Dear Mr. Trottier,
Thank you for your February 19, 2014 letter in response to my February 6 promise that I have withdrawn my support for you (and for the Conservative Party) for your decision to help a foreign government impose FATCA on Canada.
Your two page letter of explanation only describes the many features of the U.S. FATCA law that are aimed at taking away my rights and, I’m sorry to say, provides insufficient justification for your position.
I was, however, particularly interested in your point that information (of all kinds–perhaps without any exception?) released by the banks to CRA, and then turned over without my permission to a foreign government “…is consistent with Canada’s privacy laws.”
A promise is a promise — and, now for the third time, I confirm that I will not be voting for you or for the Tory party in future because of your decision and I will tell all of my colleagues to do the same.
You know, I never really believed that this could ever happen in Canada.
Regards,
IRSCF”
FEBRUARY 6 2014 UPDATE (The DAY AFTER):
Dear Mr. Trottier [and …….],
“I am sorry to have to send this email, but it should not be a surprise to either of you that after yesterday’s decision of the Conservative government (including Mr. Trottier) to help the U.S. implement its FATCA law on Canadians, I have now withdrawn my support for Mr. Trottier and for the Conservative Party.
I have been a long-term supporter of the party but now will vote strategically in your riding to support, as strongly as I can, any candidate of the other parties (all, unlike the Tories, oppose FATCA) who has the best chance of defeating the Conservative.
Please note that there are at least one million other U.S. persons in Canada who are just as angry and who will not vote Conservative because of your decision to implement this bad law.
See also [deleted].
We won’t forget.
Regards,
[IRSCF,
Toronto address]”
Jan 5 UPDATE on my meeting with my Canadian MP rep:
I had a nice chat this afternoon with my Canadian Conservative MP rep, Mr. Bernard Trottier. I introduced myself as the fellow who previously sent him a letter on FATCA and thanked him for actually responding and in a meaningful way.
He had no update on the state of the IGA negotiations between Minister Flaherty and the US, but will speak to him on this in about a week.
In a few minutes I summarized some of the consequences of FATCA for Canadians and mentioned again the IGA negotiations. His response was “But [as this is a “negotiation”] what does Canada get out of this?” and I responded appropriately.
Then I discussed votes: I explained that I voted for Mr. Trottier in the last election (this is true) and that should Minister Flaherty negotiate any IGA with the US, I will not vote for Mr. Trottier or the Conservative party again. Further, I emphasized that I am part of a network of one million (I used the term “unfortunate”) US persons in Canada, all just like me, and that my recommendation to my network will be the same. I noted too that this election is likely to be more difficult for the Tories to obtain a majority.
The discussion ended with Mr. Trottier saying that this evening he will be speaking to some US persons living in Canada, with one person considering taking out Canadian citizenship, and I provided advice on whether this was a good idea.
I left copies with Mr. Trottier and his secretary of Brison’s questions in Parliament to Flaherty, the (long) letter to the Canadian Bankers Association, some correspondence between me and a Canadian bank that uses a green logo, and a written statement in large bold print promising that I and my network will not vote Conservative should Flaherty negotiate any agreement that imposes FATCA on Canadians.
No idea whether the above will be helpful, but I was blunt enough (but polite) that my MP, who I felt was was very sympathetic throughout, understood the simple message.
Jan 5 UPDATE:
—Just another reminder that all Torontonians can visit with Conservative MP Bernard Trottier TODAY at 1-3 pm at 110 Jutland Rd. in Etobicoke. The occasion is his “Third Annual New Year’s Levee.”
I know that there was a slight snowfall last night, but freezing rain does not come until evening, the roads are clean and safe now, and driving this afternoon will be easy.
If you live in Toronto, feel that a chat with the party in power that wants to help the US impose FATCA on us might possibly be more helpful than just sending an email of complaint, why don’t you talk to Mr. Trottier today and also tell him how you plan to vote in the next Canadian election? I will.
Personally, I have become a single issue voter on both sides of the border.
Dec 20 UPDATE:
In October I received a letter from my Toronto MP, Bernard Trottier, stating that he will speak to Minister Flaherty again (i.e. a second time) to convey our concerns on FATCA (see below). This suggests to me that he, a member of the the Conservative government, might be sympathetic.
Mr. Trottier is having a public get-together Sunday January 5, 1-3 pm, at the Royal Canadian Legion Branch #210, 110 Jutland Road, in Etobicoke (suburb of Toronto). http://www.bernardtrottiermp.ca/events/
If you live in Toronto, instead of spending time on Sunday with your relatives, come and have a chat with the MP about FATCA.
ORIGINAL POST:
Recently I emailed my Canadian Member of Parliament, Mr. Bernard Trottier, with a request to have a chat with Finance Minister Flaherty at the Calgary Conservative party convention, and to persuade Mr. Flaherty to resist US imposition of FATCA on Canada.
Mr. Trottier responded to my FATCA concern:
…I have the opportunity as an MP during Caucus and other sessions in Ottawa to discuss the FATCA issue with my colleagues, including Minister Flaherty. This issue has been raised by my constituents in the past in situations where the actions of the US Internal Revenue Service regarding Canadian-American dual citizens appeared to me to be heavy handed.
I will discuss with Minister Flaherty again to convey your concerns.
Our government does careful and due diligence prior to entering into any international agreement to ensure they will not violate the rights of Canadians, or the laws of Canada…
I know that I am trying to read too much into the letter, which can be interpreted in different ways, but the response first indicates that Mr. Trottier has previously spoken to Flaherty on FATCA.
Also, the letter from this member of government seems to be more strongly worded than those of Flaherty in terms of rights protection, by appearing to provide some “assurance” that careful due diligence will ensure that any IGA will [somehow] not violate our rights.
I have thanked Mr. Trottier for his response and have asked him to respond to the comments made on this posting (November 7, 2013).
It seems to me that the Conservative government should understand that any IGA that legitimizes FATCA is unacceptable in that it fundamentally violates sovereignty and Charter rights. Lets not forget that the Canadian government did not hesitate to admonish Eritrea for Citizenship Based Taxation (CBT), so they should be consistent in dealing with the bully as well. Also, the current tax treaty is more than sufficient to serve the purposes of both countries and there is nothing in it for Canada to go along with FATCA. The only result, of course is for money to be diverted from the Canadian treasury to the US treasury and both the government and FIs will incur substantial costs to aid that diversion.
Lets the Conservative MPs understand these things.
It’s an encouraging response, but I wonder really how much input and influence Harper allows his backbenchers. They could be just as in the dark about details as we are.
The most encouraging thing so far about the impending IGA is that it still hasn’t seen the light of day. The reality is that our government has limited power in terms of dealing with the US and stalling, for the moment, might be all there is, but I do think that the growing awareness and pressure on the different parties is helping the cause.
@IRSCompliantForever
Thank you for sharing Mr. Trottier’s reply to your letter.
I hope there is a lot of careful and due dilagence on Canada signing FATCA.
What worries me is that Harper can sign it without Parliament’s approval am I right on that?
The USA is a bully…It has bullied Canada before and our government did stand up to them. I hope they do agai.
Signing any FATCA IGA would be a violation of the rights of Canadians. It is just that simple. There need only have been 2 words said by Canada in that “negotiation” — NO and GOODBYE. And let’s stop calling it an “international agreement” when it is a blatant “tax treaty override”. It’s as different as a handshake with fingers on the other hand crossed behind the back and a fully vetted, signed and sealed, official contract with no weasel words and no possibility for future workarounds. Maybe I should not be so blunt but MPs look at this from their own perspective and this is how I look at it. When the Russian Foreign Ministry seems to have a better grasp of the meaning of sovereignty than our Canadian government, then that just makes me sad.
Thanks for sharing this with us. I find it encouraging that a Tory back-bencher would use the phrase “heavy-handed” and that he says he’s raised the issue in caucus and with Flaherty.
As Yoga Girl notes, however, we know that back-benchers and even front-benchers don’t have a hell of a lot of influence over Harper on much, certainly some Tory senators concerned about something called “due process” got that message on the Senate expulsion votes. So only time will tell.
I find it mildly, but only mildly, encouraging that Trottier thinks the Harper government exercises “due diligence” in reviewing international agreements for compliance with Canadian rights and law. Not clear if those are his own words or were given to him by Flaherty or PMO, but they are his words, and now he’s on public record. But, define “due diligence.” What PMO and Harper might think of due diligence and what you or I might think, may not be the same. But perhaps we’ll find out about whether they take that seriously, or whether these are more Tory weasel-words, when we read whatever replies they table to Hsu’s and Brison’s written questions.
So, I’m not breaking out the champagne, but on the other hand, this is better than a kick in the teeth or being thrown under the bus. And at least your MP replied to you … mine has been ignoring me for some time, and he’s NDP.
IRSCompliantForever, thank you for your post.
I do appreciate the wording MP Trottier used re ‘heavy handed’ US demands.
But as to what might constitute ‘due diligence’;
Parsing these responses is like interpreting a mess of chicken entrails. Who knows what any of this means? Could mean ‘likely not to be overturned given the resources of those likely to challenge it’ if Harper has gotten some kind of opinion that he can twist to justify FATCA if that is where he sees the most advantage.
“Parsing these responses is like interpreting a mess of chicken entrails. Who knows what any of this means?”
Agreed, and thanks for your sardonic humour, badger, it’s always a pick-me-upper.
Often times “the path of least resistance” wins out. What’s undetermined at this time is who will take it.
The comments have pretty much ended, and I just sent an email of thanks to Mr. Trottier with a request that he reply in this posting to the issues raised in the comments.
Like Em, I can’t imagine any FATCA IGA that would not violate our rights.
@IRSCompliantForever,
There is one FATCA IGA that doesn’t violate our rights – the one that constitutional expert Peter Hogg suggested to the Canadian government many months ago – the one that DOES NOT APPLY TO CANADIANS, AND LEGAL RESIDENTS LIVING IN CANADA.
@WhiteKat, I suspect though that such an IGA could never be acceptable to bankrupt US.
I would also be suspicious of any IGA with the US aimed at implementing FATCA, even that suggested by Peter Hogg.
@bubblebustin,
re;
“Often times “the path of least resistance” wins out. What’s undetermined at this time is who will take it.”
Yes. And I hope that we provide sufficient resistance, friction or at least a good embarassing trail of documents, letters, Hansard questions etc. to follow that makes it harder for the Harper Government to do this furtively as they and the skulking IRS and US Treasury collaborationist CBA, IIAC et al would prefer.
May not be enough, but better to go down trying. I believe they have been counting on no understanding and no resistance.
Yes, badger, we must remain unrelenting in our efforts to make IGA’s the path of MOST resistance.
…and if an IGA is to be, that their chosen path is “twice as long” as they anticipated.
The compliance industrial complex likes to think in terms of THE FATCA EXPRESS but we should think of ourselves as THE LITTLE ENGINE THAT COULD. FATCA has all the “might” of the USA behind it but we have what’s morally “right” behind us.
@Em..
Yes, we are morally right….and we can and we will.
Does anyone have connections with an organisation called Americans in Calgary?
http://www.internations.org/calgary-expats/americans?utm_source=google_adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=americans_in_calgary&utm_content=_Americans&utm_campaign=LC_CA_Calgary
NorthernShrike,
Not me, I will look into it. Thanks.
Hmmm, to join the blog:
Elitist: I won’t qualify.
@411
Maybe it is date thing of temporary residents of Canada. Many seem to work for the oil companies.
@ Calgary411
I missed your comment . I am with you , not an elitist. It is always interesting for me to go to these groups when I worked. I found it entertaining watching the climbers work the floor.
I looked into Internations. I didn’t get past the membership fee request.
I think that Badger’s “chicken entrails” comment (Parsing responses of politicians is like “interpreting a mess of chicken entrails” will become historic and never to be forgotten.
Badger also mentions “resistance.” Some of the older Brockers will remember Winston Churchill’s famous “Chicken” address to Canada’s Parliament on December 30, 1941.
Churchill was trying to inspire resistance in Canada during the difficult part of WW2 by first drawing attention to the French government’s claim that in three weeks Britain would “have its neck rung like a chicken!”:
I don’t believe that Badger’s “chicken entrails” quote (which should inspire us during the darkest days of our war with IRS) has made it to youtube (yet), but you can access Churchill’s chicken speech to Canada on youtube provided below by @KalC:
Interesting! This video is not in Parliament; it’s in the US Congress.
He made the same point twice. The Canadian speech is here
http://youtu.be/XyoY6UzWLEo
@KalC, thanks for correcting my mistake and by providing the correct youtube link for Churchill’s speech to Parliament. I edited out in my posting the youtube to his speech to US Congress. Not good especially on this site if I cannot tell the difference between US Congress and Canada’s Parliament….
Dec 20 UPDATE to the post: