photo from yesterday, day 1 of protest
PROTEST EVENING POSTMORTEM:
I know that this small protest did reach the FIsters attending the conference and put them on notice–because most refused to look us in the eye.
This protest happened because of the dedication of on-site protesters including Atticus, Marie, Northernstar, Peter, Tricia, and WhiteKat, those (including Blaze and James Jatras) who helped in preparation of the letter to the Canadian Bankers Association that was critical to the protest, and because of the others I am not certain that I can mention.
Amazing people, all.
On-site coverage from IRSCompliantForever :
15.54. A last goodbye from all of us to the banksters.
15:03. Banker from small bank who hates FATCA just signed petition.
14:24. AttIcus just explained FATCA to passerby. Response was “Well, the banks need a little (words deleted).”
14:14. Banksters we meet all express sympathy but insist that there is no way to prevent FATCA. So many passerbys wondering about this FATCA word.
13:18. Fellow from one of the major banks visited with us had a friendly chat and accepted the CBA letter. He asked that we not disclose the name of his bank. Banksters are also taking pictures of us.
12.55. Another passerby came up to us expressing concern that her daughter has a Green Card.
Reports and photos of earlier today and yesterday after the jump
12:53. A passerby just came up to us expressing concern that she was born to a US parent and asked whether FATCA applied. Atticus explained and the woman thanked us for being here.
11:23. Unexpectedly another protester arrived with signs. Someone we all know.
11:13. Police have arrived again.
10:51. Nice sunny day. One bankster inside gave us the thumbs up. We had a nice chat with two reps of a major FI who accepted the CBA letter.
***
Day 1 of Protest – Yesterday, 13 November
13:40. Stuck on a narrow curb.
13:07. New development. Head of security informed us that we had to move to the curb in which we must remain 18 inches from the street. I called the police to resolve. Three police officers came and tried to intervene with security, but security refused as walkway is technically on private property. Want to emphasize that police tried their very best to help us. We will try not to tip over on curb. Lots of interest from passerbys. Morale very high.
12:50
12:46
12:13. Above is a photo of four Brocker/Sandboxers taken by a sympathetic passerby. Note that the person holding the “Do not marry an American” sign is a guest Brocker who is a kindly non-US spouse of a US person. She strongly supports the message of the sign and wants to be known as @LauraSecord. Small group but morale is high.
11:09. Met a fellow working for a bank. He says FATCA is painful.
11:02. Tricia, Marie, NorthernStar and IRSCompliantForever just spoke to a very friendly and receptive journalist who will include mention of our protest in an article He also said that this is the first FATCA protest he is aware of. We cannot mention name of journalist. We are pointing signs at the conference room. Doors are closed now so that banksters cannot see us.
09:37. Peter is standing immediately in front of the conference meeting room. We can see them and they can see us. But we cannot enter.
07:33. Peter and I are on site. We were told us that we would be arrested if we entered building. Tried to leave CBA letters but conference organizer refused and noted that our comments on IBS about CBA were inflammatory.
***
The conference is “Canadian Institute’s 19th Annual REGULATORY COMPLIANCE for Financial Institutions” at the North Building of the Metro Convention Centre in Toronto which has been brought to our attention through the diligence of @Tricia. http://www.regulatorycomplianceforfis.com/
Thanks all of you for your much-appreciated comments. In a day or so, we are going to write a post describing our individual reactions to our experience. We are all sorry that once we left the site yesterday and went to eat, that we didn’t let you know. We were excited, tired, cold and hungry and it simply didn’t occur to us to check our phones.
We clarified “who is who” with regard to the security. The original issue regarding Peter and IRSCompliantForever appears to be security that is hired by the MTCC for the conferences that are held there. This particular guard was not the one who went on to the issues with the curb. He was the one who said if we went inside the building or crossed the area directly under the walkway, we would be arrested.
The owner of the property (not the MTCC) has his/her/their own security on the site. It was this layer of security where the issue of the sidewalk and the curb came up. While it may sound awful, it was respectful and we had enjoyable conversations with the fellow who was charged with this duty. He relented on the issue of whether we could enter the building for coffee, the washroom and so on. The issue was the signs and he allowed us to enter as long as we did not carry the signs. We are going to follow up on this issue of easements, etc. It was a total surprise to all of u
We were amazed that the conferencees were that upset about our presence. A Brocker/Sandboxer opined that images of the G20 protest/Occupy Wall Street may have been at the core of that fear. Everytime we saw the conference doors open, we made sure all the signs were up and we tried to establish eye contact with them and waved. Some of them began to wave back, it was quite funny. We did find that more of them came out today to talk to us. It was a really interesting situation.
@ Dash1729
You are right. The Scotia bank is definitely asking someone opening a new account to identify themselves as a U.S. Person …
A U.S. Person (U.S. Citizen or U.S. Dual Citizen) must provide SSN and complete and sign Form CA W-9.
That form would completely turn me off from ever opening an account there. Too much information required, period.
@ vin-de-table
Welcome!
Welcome vin-de-table! If everyone came out to help in spite of their fears, we would be a lot stronger. I guess some are hoping for divine intervention.
@Tricia
Thanks for filling us in, I’m looking forward to everyone’s experience. It sounds like it was somewhat exhilarating. Yes, it’s interesting that the bankers got kind of chummy. If they weren’t executioners they might just be nice people. I guess we should consider being nice to them because they’re just following orders – NOT!
@Vin-de-table, Welcome to Brock.
@ALL
It was a great experienc for me. It a very important event to be remembered.
I will write on the new post more. I feel a little tired at the moment.
@vin-de-table
WELCOME! We all know how you feel. It just takes a little time and doing. Please keep connected!
Thank you wonderful people. I can imagine how cold it must have been outside on the streets of Toronto for two days. Thank you for your energy, your sacrifice and your wisdom donated on behalf of the entire world. If President Obama thinks that his Health Care thing is running into serious difficulties he better wait until next when his health care thing will hit obstacles (perhaps 100 million more Americans losing their company supplied health insurance versus the 5 to 15 million losing their individually supplied health insurance this year) maybe 20 times as large as those being encountered now and onwards when his FATCA legislation steps up the persecution of the entire world. God help the world economy.
The Canadian Government needs to come clean now. They need to publicly declare to Canadians whether they are going to defend Canadian Sovereignty, the Canadian Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights … or not. Canada needs to conference NOT with the USA but with China, Russia and the rest of the world that still believe in the sovereignty and equality of nations. If the world says no to FATCA, starts selling out their US investments (or simply bid down the price) and simply ups the price of every product that the US imports by a 50% tax then when the US withholds the 30% penalty on the payment then everyone should be roughly back to even Steven … except of course the US economy which will have crashed or reversed FATCA. We need a new world reserve currency and we need it now.
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Perhaps the Governments of the world should simply refuse to all FATCA to be observed by their institutions and people, and guarantee to make good to their people any withholding the US tries to make. Of course this would need to be financed and perhaps this should be done by a world wide tax of 50% on any transaction done with Americans. An American traveling to Toronto will need to pay a 50% surcharge on every purchase they make. If the US wants to declare financial war on the entire world then the world needs to defend itself. New York would be charged a 50% tax on the Hydro Electricity that they get from Quebec. Of course none of this is good … but the American people need to find out what their Government is doing …. without the spin …. and urgently !
I am getting vexed.
BTW do not be surprised that Turncoat Banksters and FIsters probably read this site. I would not be surprised if the Government people are not also anxiously seeking information about this site and the views being expressed. I wonder when selling out to a foreign power and granting them domain (whether by IGA or otherwise) over one’s people becomes an act of Treason?
According to the Merriam Webster Dictionary:
Full Definition of TREASON
1: the betrayal of a trust : treachery
2: the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign’s family
@Nervousinvestor
We are all very, very vexed.
I like your ideas what the rest of the world countries could/should do. I am right there with you but the rest of the joe blow ordinary people I know (Canadians) have their head looking toward the ground, eyes glazed and wearing earplugs in their ears. They say FATCA is “ridiculous, stupid, weird, won’t happen, will pray and ask God to stop it, nothing we can do, etc”.
90% won’t sign the petition or email their MP with a reason of “I don’t have time, I don’ t know my MP or I have my own issues, job, family to deal with”.
Standing in the cold with my fellow protestors and seeing the bankers avoid us made me think these bankers know what they are doing is wrong but they have the reasoning FATCA can not be stopped. I know it is about the banks not wanting to lose money. That may have been the reasons the USA did not join the war against Hitler until Pearl Harbor. The Bush Family actually did business with Hitler’s Germany as did Henry Ford and the rest of the US corporations . They did not want to lose their profits and European assets. Some did not even stop after Pearl Harbor but continued to do business with Germany but covertly. It is ALWAYS about money.
Our Prime Minister is busy selling our country away and our rights. I think he would like to see us be the 51st state. He has the majority to do whatever he wants, unfortunately. We have no PM who would say fuddle duddle to the USA nor do we have a Jack Layton who can stir up and rally and fight for the real people of Canada.
Until someone comes along like that we can give up and join the herd or keep on trying to make a difference. I chhose to keep on trying and not sell my soul to the devil.
@Nervousinvestor
The bankers and our government officials just well may be reading our Brock blog. I would like them to read the book by Irving Abella “None is too many 1933 – 1948”. What the bankers of the world are now doing to American Persons around the world is what Canada and other countries did to the Jewish people those years. The Jewish people were thrown under the bus. There are no camps now but having your finances attacked and not allowed to have bank accounts because you wish to have your constitutional rights is the same as what was done then. FATCA makes American Persons second class citizens, owned by the USA.
@Nervousinvestor
I do want to see the ACA (Obamacare ) succeed. He is fighting a battle against Republicans and the Media. They want him to lose because the pharmaceutical companies and big corporations don’t want to see American people have health care like Canada. Having poorer people is to their benefit. Poor people are weak. Sick people are weak. The weak are easier to supress and keep down.
Computers are the girls with the curls. When they are good they are great, when they are bad they are so bad. I worked with companies that went from electric typewriters to computer systems. These were national Canadian corporations. The problems were huge. There was so much down time I learned how to play Euchre and many novels while waiting for them to come up. Fixes were always on going. Many people know that the computer problems will be solved and Americans will grow to love their new health care as di Canadians. That is why a few years ago we voted Tommy Douglas as our Greatest Canadian.
@NervousInvestor: You can be certain the banksters are following us. They have commented here. Petros was told comments are “inflammatory” I don’t know if that was in reference to the letter or the site. I hope he will clarify that.
Inflammatory: tending to excite anger, disorder, or tumult (Merriam-Webster)
So who and what is “inflammatory?” I think an invasion of the financial privacy of honest, responsible law-abiding Canadian citizens by by a foreign government in violation of Canada’s sovereignty, laws and Charter of Rights and Freedoms tends to “excite anger, disorder or tumult” in our lives. So, that meets the definition of “inflammatory.”
That action by the banks and our government could be so “inflammatory,” it might actually lead people to come together on social networking, speak out, tweet and write letters and articles. It might cause them to consult with lawyers and Canadian Civil Liberties Association. It might cause them to transfer money out of banks which refuse to reassure long-time customers their rights will be respected.
Good gracious, it may even cause a handful of people to carry signs in front of a conference with an American lawyer (ex-IRS) teaching Canadian banks and financial institutions how to “navigate the hurdles” to violate Canadian rights.
Most inflammatory of all, after those peaceful protestors were kicked to the curb, they smiled, waved, tried to make eye contact and chat with delegates to that conference. How’s that for “exciting anger, disorder and tumult?”
Bunch of radicals, that’s what those protestors are!
@All
Now that I feel rested and in the mood for writing my memories of my very first protest I have ever been in my life.
It was a wonderful feeling to be part of our boots on the ground group. We were not huge but I feel in my gut we put footprints on many peoples minds and hearts.
We are a group of Canadians who care what FATCA will do to our country, not only what it does to us. Some of us have gone through the process of renunciation/relinquishment and have or are waiting for their CLN. Some are still in the progress of doing this.
We all have been on different paths that brought us to meet on the Isaacbrocksociety.ca path.
I came to Canada as a refugee from America in 1969. I cried when I left my country but once I arrived and lived here I knew this was the country that my heart and soul belonged to. I tried to put behind my anger and look at my mother country with kinder eyes. But since 2000 I have watched the USA change to country I would absolutely never want live in and now not even visit. I made my decision 20 years ago and became a Canadian citizen, never had a regret doing so.
I know my fellow Brockers still have ties to the US and want to see family and return to visit. It is sad when some in the US congress want to ban those who gave up US citizenship from crossing the border to even visit. It such a meanspirited thing to do. So much like a bully.
We Brockers do not want FATCA to violate our Canadian constitution and Charter of Rights for financial privacy. We want to protect our retirement hard earned in Canada money. We want to protect our children’s education funds and disability funds. I never heard of citizen and resident based taxation until I joined Brock.
So there we stood on one and half feet allowed by security holding our signs and attracting the bankers, security, police and passersbys attention. It was very cold.
The security people that I met were doing their job. One was very nice. The constable who came to talk and hear our side was sympathetic and tried to get us more than one and half feet.
When I told my friends I was going to protest FATCA I was warned to not get arrested. I had no attention to. I just was interested in bringing to the attention to others FATCA. It is the worst law Canadians and Americans never heard of. That was one of my signs that I made for the protest. I never made signs before but made a few for our protest and got “into” making them. Teachers really put alot of their time I realized making classroom signs. Now I can understand some of what they do.
We protestors were FATCA teachers to those who came up to talk to us. There were quite a few. Some signed our petition and took our Brock cards and fliers. Most were in agreement with us. I loved meeting the young English couple who took our flyer and would tell their friends back home about FATCA. I enjoyed talking to the young English mom who was here with her husband who was with her husband who was looking at taking a job in Canada. She took our flyer and said she would put pictures she took of us on her Facebook page and tell her friends about FATCA. The pretty girl in the coffee shop asked what we were protesting. I told her about FATCA and she agreed our government should not sign away our rights. She was going to tell her friends.
This what it really was about. The ripple effect can be very powerful. It takes just one word to make a difference in the message. It takes just one person. A snowball can turn into an avalanche. I hope so.
I was disappointed that the media was not there to see our visit. Unfortunately they were caught up in the Rob Ford circus at city hall. CBA must have liked that as it put them under the radar for FATCA questions.
Some bankers came out to check us out. Some sympathized. Others said it was unavoidable. One funny bald banker kept taking pictures of us but was upset we took pictures of him. He insisted the pictures of him be deleted. We complied.
I enjoyed meeting in person the Brockers who wrote on our blog. Now I can visualize them when they write their comments.
It was very cold, especially Wednesday. I was prepared and dressed for it. I am used to the cold so it was bearable for me. It did feel wonderful having our shared dinner to warm up recall the days events.
I know that this protest with you all will be a memory never forgotten by me. It is a highlight in my life. I am forever in debt and grateful to all of my Brock brothers and sisters for teaching and helping me about dealing with FATCA. Funny how a bad law can bring together such good people.
When is the next protest? I will try to be there.
@Dash: The form from Scotia McLeod is for securities or investment accounts. The question about SSN, etc. is among several questions that are not permitted for opening and maintaining standard bank accounts.
I have seen this form before and have said I don’t pretend to understand how or why investment accounts are treated differently or if it is legal to ask those questions. I don’t have any accounts of that nature.
When we consulted the lawyer, we spoke only about standard banking accounts, not about investment accounts. We were advised if the banks violate our rights under privacy, banking and human rights laws, we have grounds for a lawsuit against the banks. If the government changes the laws for FATCA, we have grounds for a Charter challenge against the banks.
To date, to the best of my knowledge, Canadian banks have not yet violated those laws. The government has not changed those laws. We don’t know yet what will happen.
I have no idea if there are grounds for action concerning investment accounts. I do not feel comfortable discussing that with the lawyer for the simple reason that I don’t have knowledge about securities or investment accounts.
In addition to the three of us who contacted Joe almost three years ago, I know at least one other person has consulted him. I don’t know if that person spoke with Joe about investment accounts.
If you or other people would like to discuss whether there are grounds for class action on investment accounts, the lawyer we consulted is Joe Arvay of Arvay Finley in Vancouver. http://www.arvayfinlay.com/lawyers/j-arvay.htm
I would not be able to be a plaintiff to such action because I have not been and will not be affected by this.
Inflammatory? Wait til the raging grannies get released on them!
Love the responses all.
I agree the ultimate inflammatory act is to sell out the Charter of Rights ! To cave in to the Imperialist to the (your) South, (my North). It is far from inflammatory to stand up for the Sovereignty of Canada.
@ northernstar – I agree that the US health care system has been a mess for decades if not longer. The ACA is making it worse however … and I am not merely talking about the BILLION dollar web site that doesn’t work as advertised. The fundamental structure of the law is dysfunctional. That is why Nancy Pelosi said that the law had to be passed before people could learn what was in it. Whatever. My only point was that the obstacles being encountered in the US presently with the implementation of the ACA is just the tip of the iceberg …. the ACA is merely one law in the stream of badly crafted law and simply BAD law like the FATCA law (and there are others) that are crippling the US and the World economy. Another one is one that has just been pushed on Jamaica that makes it illegal (up to a 10 year prison sentence) to do any cash transaction or series of transactions amounting to what is now worth roughly US$9,500 more or less. Now most businesses in Jamaica operate on micro margins and are almost entirely a cash economy …. so someone ordering say US$10,000 worth of goods and getting a vendor’s truck to deliver say US$5,000 worth of the goods this morning (and paying cash on delivery whether they, like most Jamaicans, do not have a bank account or do not want to lose the two weeks for a check to clear or do not want to lose the additional 3% to pay by a credit card) and then sell all morning making a few cents on the dollar and then getting another delivery of similar size in the afternoon to sell on into the evening … that person will now have committed an offense and may face up to 10 years in prison ! Absolutely absurd law and forced down Jamaica’s throat by the US primarily but also with the complicity of Canada, Britain and Euroland … the very people who generate dirty money in a marketplace though their consumption of illegal drugs. Very sad. Yet the entire world is being brought to an economic halt because of these laws. Poverty is growing.
@MarkTwain: Raging Grannies are already on it.
http://saitjournalism.ca/thepress/2013/11/08/fatca-draws-protestors-out-in-the-cold/
It would be great if they could be convinced to go protest at Finance Canada or Canadian Bankers Association. Anyone know how to contact Raging Grannies–or to form our own chapter?
Welcome @vin-de-table!
We all started out at different points on this journey. We all participate as we feel we can and are able, even if only by reading and keeping up with these issues. Information is power.
Even just informally telling others you trust about this is valuable.
Thank you for your company.
I continue to be very thankful, and in awe of what IBS and Maple Sandbox participants have done; the dedication, and the range of skills and heart brought to this dilemma. You guys are amazing!
OMG! Raging Grannies chapters in Ottawa and Toronto and across Canada.
http://ottawagrans.net/
Toronto calls themselves “Ticking Time Bomb Grannies” Oh, oh, inflammatory!
http://www.tickingtimebomb.ca/bombgrannies.html
Here’s more about Raging Grannies
http://raginggrannies.org/herstory/
Anyone in Ottawa or Toronto interested in getting them involved in a protest against Finance Canada or CBA? As Mark said, these old ladies would truly be “inflammatory.” Don’t mess with Grannie!
@northernstar – thank you for the wonderful summary. I do so agree with you that one one cocoa fill basket. Every person that learns what FATCA is about and is disgusted by its encroachment on people’s rights is another person to spread the word … worldwide. Keep the faith and keep on keeping on.
@northernstar
I enjoyed reading about your first ever protest experience, and am happy that you took many positive things away from it. Protesting is real, it’s in people’s faces and it’s generally recognized for the effort it takes to participate in one. It just chokes me that the morning news would cover the installation of the Tim Horton’s coffee cam somewhere instead of you guys!
@blaze
The word “inflammatory” is usually bantered about with ones like “defamation” and “slander”. Of course, for an accusation to be considered defamatory it has to be a lie. No lies here.