Treasury Department spokesman Robert Stack claims it’s a myth that US persons living their everyday lives outside the US are being harmed by FATCA. We know it’s true because the damage FATCA has caused and is causing to our lives is real.
In relation to the Stack statement, Tim noticed that Treasury was “re-iterating on twitter that NO ONE will give up their US citizenship because of FACTA and that it is only a myth that that is happening,” which caused Not Amused to write, “That makes us all mythical creatures then. If anyone related to any US government agency ever tries to contact me, I’ll tell them to have their head examined because people like me don’t exist.”
“We Are Not a Myth” is a protest on Tumblr where we post our photos to show that we are real. You can show your face or hide it in your photo, as you wish, and you can add a message along with it. You can add your photo yourself OR e-mail atticusincanada@gmail.com and she’ll add it to the display.
Thanks much, Atticus, for setting this up on Tumblr. Thanks to Blaze for the original suggestion, “It occurred to me that would be great to do around the world as a Treasury Myth Buster. Each person could do their own sign I Am Not A Myth and perhaps the country.”
And thanks all for your photos – the visuals are so eloquent!
Your effort has been acknowledged here…
http://www.freeenterprise.com/economy-taxes/fatca-trap-opposition-builds-can-intrusive-foreign-tax-compliance-law-be-stopped
When Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary Robert Stack published his September 20 response to critics of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) in an effort to counter what he calls “myths” surrounding the law, he probably didn’t realize he was giving birth to a new web meme.
In response to Stack’s piece, a diverse group of Americans living and working overseas have flocked to the “We Are Not a Myth” site to post photographs registering their protests to the controversial new law, which was signed by President Obama in 2010 to target foreign tax evasion.
We have the attention of U.S. Chamber of Commerce through We Are Not A Myth!!!!! Even better, We Are Not A Myth was their lead on the story which Just Me posted above. (Free Enterprise is published by U.S. Chamber of Commerce)
We still need more people “flocking to” http://we-are-not-a-myth.tumblr.com/
I’ve tweeted We R Not A Myth several times to @USTreasury. I just tweeted them this article from @USChamber in @FreeEnterprise
@ Blaze
Yes, the ripples are multiplying.
I am on myth. Yes iii
That’s great — let’s REALLY flock there!! It’s easy; the visual portrait is SO VERY powerful. Thanks, Atticus!
You can add your photo yourself OR e-mail atticusincanada@gmail.com and she’ll add it to the display.
It just takes a minute. It means so much.
Thanks, everyone.
so upon further reflection of the reading i have done can someone confirm what i have gleened re: relinquishing my “american personhood”
in that if i want to do so and before paying my $450 for the pleasure of doing so i first need to be 100% up to date with all my IRS forms going back 6 (i think) years and having paid all the fines for being late for those years. as well there is a very good chance that i alone would not be able to figure out all the various forms needed to be compliant and would have to have a accountant do so for me?
i have not earned any u.s. income since 1989 nor have i filed any IRS paperwork since april of 1989
mettleman,
No, you will not be (should not be!) asked about your taxes at either your relinquishment or renunciation appointment for expatriation.
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-8854,-Initial-and-Annual-Expatriation-Statement is your certification to the US — to be filed the year after your expatriation.
@Mettleman,
At your meeting, you’ll probably see a clerk for about 5-10 minutes to go over your documents, wait in the waiting area for a while, then you’ll see a vice consul (or consul) who has looked over your file before meeting you. You see this officer for about 10 minutes. They’re not interested in tax – not their department. The consulate’s main concern is that your papers are in order and that you are aware of the consequences of what you’re doing (form DS-4081). (One place we know of was harassing people about tax at one point, but DoS made them stop and they’ve been okay since.)
As Calgary commented, a person does not need to be tax compliant at the time of renunciation. They have until June 15th of the year following their renunciation to certify (on their exit tax form, 8854, which is due June 15th of the year following the renunciation) that they are tax compliant for the five previous years. If they don’t do this, that can have IRS consequences but the citizenship loss is not affected — it remains valid as of the day of renunciation.
You can read about people’s consulate meetings here – also on page 5 of it is a link to the Dept of State forms, such as DS-4081.
This is where my confusion is, too. I haven’t filed anything since the 90s. If I relinquish, DoS notifies IRS… and then they know. How can I honestly complete a form 8854 if I haven’t filed 1040s and FBARS? (on taxes owing of zero! )
@JustMe,
Perhaps we should put the article you found on a post of its own. It is a wonderful example of how much ripple effect we are having.
http://www.freeenterprise.com/economy-taxes/fatca-trap-opposition-builds-can-intrusive-foreign-tax-compliance-law-be-stopped
@fifi,
You have that relatively short time span to complete the IRS returns (or be deemed a ‘Covered Expatriate’ by the US if you do not). So, you need to research here all the possible consequences based on your level of risk tolerance, to make the decision that works for you. You may be able to insert a lot of “zero’s” into your last IRS form, 8854. It is different for everyone but we have a lot here on which to make our decisions. One of the things that people think about is whether or not they ever want / need to again visit the US — and you have already thought of that. It may or may not be a future problem.
great thanks for that info
what will happen if i relinquish and then just not do any IRS forms. as i understand from reading it can be both expensive and cumbersome to come into IRS compliance.
can the IRS come after me in canada? and what if i just never cross into the usa ever again?
We each have to make our own decisions (see my comment above). Here is something from another comment, knowing there are no guarantees for what the future holds:
@WhiteKat
Go for it…
Swisspinoy brought up the possibility that the definition of “US person” could be expanded to include “covered expatriates”. I though it was a good point considering how the US has become a revenue sucking black hole.
thank you for the post calgary411
i hate when i am stuck between a rock and a hard place through no fault of my own.
i remember reading about “Covered Expatriate’ ” and there seems to be major problems that arrise when you become one of those.
i think for now i will stick with my orginal decision and that is not ever go to the usa ever again and take my chance in july when FATCA comes into effect.
it sucks to be put into this position as my wife and i were looking forward to the day when we could spend a couple of months traveling through the states and seeing all the places we have wanted to.
oh well guess mexico will be getting my travel dollars this year and not california like we had planned to. whenever we did travel to the states we had a rule that we would not eat at any of the multination fast food places or even hotel/motel chains but rather stop at the local places and support the people who live in those towns.
i think america is going to lose way more than they will be gaining with FATCA. at least i hope so.
@mettleman
One of the reasons my husband and I entered the US tax system for the first time is because we didn’t want to be looking over our shoulders for the rest of our lives. At a certain point, it becomes easier for the IRS to prove wilfulness, and in our case because we’d never filed there’s no limit on how far back they’ll go. Whatever decision you make will cost you, whether it’s your mobility or it’s your dollars. Just make sure it’s a decision you can live with in the long run.
@mettleman: I swear (or affirm, ha ha!) that you and I are twins separated at birth.
mettleman,
Re: “it sucks to be put into this position as my wife and i were looking forward to the day when we could spend a couple of months traveling through the states and seeing all the places we have wanted to.”
That many have to pay the price of not being able to freely cross the border as any other Canadian (or other country person) and all the other threats that Congress tries to force upon us is sad commentary of the US and its perceived example of democracy.
@Calgary411
I am resigned to never crossing the border again to the USA.
How many people were kept out of the USSR where they were born but emigrated to other countries.
Hard to believe this has happen the USA where some of us grew up in.
@mettleman (and perhaps fifi)
This is a repeat of a comment I made elsewhere and is concerning renouncing without doing 5 years of returns or submitting form 8854. It repeats some of what others have already said above.
This is meant for informational purposes only. I’m not trying to tell anyone what they should do; everyone’s an adult here and can make their own decisions.
If you do not file 8854, you’re on the hook for a $10K penalty.
If you do not file the 5 years of returns, you’re on the hook for them (and any tax and/or penalties owed).
You *may* move into the category of wilfully non-compliant. (not sure the consequences of that, but it can’t be good)
These will hang over your head for the rest of your life (presumably with interest accumulating).
OTOH, you should be OK if
1) You never travel to the US again
2) You have no assets in the US
3) Your country does not have a tax treaty with the US that requires said country to collect IRS imposed taxes and penalties. E.g., Canada’s treaty does not require Canada to collect on behalf of the IRS if the person was a Canadian at the time the liability arose.
Two more submissions today and thank you both very much!
thanks todtt for clearing up what i had thought in my mind.
i certainly will not be relinquishing my citzenship because i have absoutly no intention of filling out any IRS paperwork nor paying my accountant a large sum of money to do so.
as tough a decision as it is to make i will have to be comfortable with never being able to go to the states again. i have very much enjoyed the times i have spent traveling and visiting there. my wife and i try to go to somewhere along the west coast beaches at least once a year and have some great memories of those trips.
i was talking to my mother about this. she is in her seventies and she to informed me that she has made her last trip ever to the states. (she just got back from hawaii) i could tell she was uncomfortable with saying that but she to has no intrest in being involved anymore than she is (which is zero) with the IRS or the american gov’t. she took out canadian citzenship in 1973, has never held a us passport nor filed any tax forms since 1973.
now that i am more aware than i was just a few short weeks ago i will do my part to spread the word to any other americans i know and make them aware (cause i know they were like me…totaly unaware) of what is going on and get them to spread the word.
thank you all for the support
All we are is just another brick in the Berlin Wall.
@Mettleman: When did you become a Canadian citizen? Was it before 2004? Have you done anything since then to claim US citizenship–i.e. vote in US election, have a US passport or file tax returns with IRS? It seems you answer to that last question is no.
If you relinquished before 2004 and you have not had a US passport or voted in a US election, you should be able to go to a US Consulate and advise them of your earlier relinquishment. You would not be expected to file past returns. You would then receive a CLN.
I personally will not go anywhere near a US Consulate. I will not give them my name or address to possibly pass on to IRS. US Consulate told me 40 years ago I was “permanently and irrevocably” relinquishing US citizenship. I don’t trust them now not to change the rules again after they have my information.
However. as others have said, everyone needs to do what gives them the most peace of mind. Many who became citizens of other countries before 2004 have received back-dated CLNs without the need to file any returns with IRS.
As Calgary posted, Finance Minister Flaherty has been clear Canada does not and will not collect taxes or penalties for IRS for any Canadian citizen and will not collect penalties from any Canadian resident for IRS.
Plus, Canadian courts–up to the level of the Supreme Court of Canada–have refused IRS requests to demand jurisdiction in Canada. So, there really is not much IRS can do to you.
The big threat, of course, is FATCA. We still don’t know what the end result of the discussions between Canada and US will be and whether or not banks will be demanding to know about place of birth or other “US person” questions.
@blaze
i became a canadian citizen in 1980. at that time i was told that i would be considered a dual citizen as i could not do anything to jepordize my us citzenship.
i did hold a us passport and i believe it was issued in 1988. i did vote when i lived in the states in the ’80s as well. moved to canada permantly in april of 1989 and was welcomed with open arms at the border coming into canada.
i to will not be going anywhere near a consulate or border ever. i do not trust in any way shape of form any of the american gov’t and what might be passed on to who.
i have canadian citizenship, a canadian passport and even if it is not formally recgonized i cease to be an “american person” and i will be damned if i have to pay for the privlidge not to be one!