FATCA Fact Sheet Anti-FATCA Slogans Protest Press Release
AtticusinCanada has received an official permit to protest on Parliament Hill Oct. 16, 2013, from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m.! We will meet at 9 a.m. in front of Parliament Hill and proceed to the Hill itself once we have a reasonably sized group. Families and even children are welcome if you feel they are old enough! We ask that everyone bring their own sign. A good idea would be to email AtticusinCanada with the slogans you would like to use, so we have as few duplicates as possible.
First posted on September 11, 2013
The mini-protest in Ottawa on Sept 9, 2013, garnered some well needed media attention. Just imagine how much we could achieve if more Brockers joined forces for a larger protest at parliament hill this fall!
Many of us believe that a formal announcement of an IGA for FATCA is just around the corner. It’s time to ramp up with the push back. The letter writing and emailing to our elected representatives has been great, and some illuminating articles have been written by Lynne and Victoria, but we need to do more.
Atticusincanada and I would like to be the drivers towards organizing a larger protest, but first we need to gather enough participants. For those Brockers who can commit to coming to Ottawa for a day, and would like to join us, please email Atticusincanada at atticusincanada@gmail.com.
@badger
my bad
@schubert, early on in this, I had to learn to translate IRS and Treasury speak to understand that in US Cosmology – which revolves around the US, all things exist only in relation to the US. All US documents and terms are in relation to US residents, though they apply to US non-residents if we are deemed ‘US taxable persons’.
The universe, the sun and globe revolve around the US.
Canadian accounts down the street from my house are not ‘local’ as they are to my actual residence in the usual geographic and spatial sense, nor in relation to my Canadian citizenship and CRA tax status as a Canadian tax resident.
That is all besides the point in US Cosmology thus:
– ‘Local’ is in relation to the US, no matter where I and my assets actually are physically.
and,
Conversely, ‘foreign’ is always geographically and otherwise in relation to the US, except that I am not a ‘foreign’ taxpayer despite being a Canadian resident one, I am a ‘US taxpayer’.
– ‘Offshore’ also means Canada (I would have twigged to all this much sooner if I had understood that the US media discussions of ‘offshore’ and ‘foreign’ accounts included my Canadian ones and did not refer only to geographically distant locations outside of North America.
– My ‘local’ accounts (in Canada) are thus ‘foreign’ because I do not find it logical to drive to Washington or Kansas to deposit my Canadian made wages.
– My Canadian local registered savings are ‘foreign trusts’ because they are not US ones – though they are local to me and to the Canadian government who issues them, and who governs me as a citizen and resident on Canadian soil.
– I am however, always a ‘US taxpayer’ when it comes to being assessed for US tax to be paid, or penalties to be assessed, though I cannot ever be one for the purposes of the many useful US tax breaks and US government grants like the one to deduct my mortgage payments or save for a child’s college education. I am never a US taxpayer if there would be a benefit such as a dependent child tax credit – because though there is no doubt that I am the biological parent of a minor and economically dependent child, the child is Canadian, and thus I am not a parent for US tax purposes, and they are not a child for the purposes of a Child tax credit. Apparently, non-US children of US taxable persons do not need support or credits or cost me money as a parent or need help to afford post-secondary schooling. However, if that said non-US child were to have a Canadian RESP and I were their trustee, the ‘foreign’ RESP for the non-US child would be treated as if it were my ‘foreign trust’ and subject to US financial reporting and treatment via the FBAR, FATCA and associated US tax penalties.
Similarly, although my Canadian house is physically located in Canada, as am I, my Canadian mortgage payments are not deductible for US tax purposes – though I am deemed a ‘US taxable person’ for US tax purposes. Confusingly however, my Canadian house is subject to US capital gains tax if I sell it – though the US did not help me to pay for it via US tax breaks. The Canadian mortgage on my Canadian house is sometimes part of a ‘foreign account’ though it is held by me locally, where I live. The Canadian house is also part of my assets for US tax purposes if I were to give it as a gift to a non-US spouse.
– I am not apparently a Canadian taxpayer first and foremost according to the US, though I live here, am a Canadian citizen, work and pay taxes to the CRA – and though most of the globe considers residence the main basis for taxation. Only a flawed tax treaty stands between me and complete US non-recognition of my Canadian tax and resident status. If it is not exempt or covered in the tax treaty, it is fair game to the US.
– I would be a ‘non-filer’ and ‘noncompliant’ if I did not file US taxes – though I have always filed and paid in full – and am compliant where I permanently reside as a citizen in Canada with NO US source income and NO US economic connection.
– No taxes count as taxes if they are not US taxes or unless the US says they are. Therefore my HST and municipal taxes do not count.
– I cannot ever receive any benefits from the US because though I am a ‘US taxable person’ and ‘US taxpayer’ for life, only as a US resident can I receive any benefits.
– I am not guaranteed the right to vote – though I be defined as a US citizen – because I do not live in the US – though I must pay taxes as if I do live in the US.
and,
I cannot be shed of unwanted US status until and if the US agrees that it chooses to formally recognize relinquishing act/s – even if it is an irrefutable fact that they have taken place. Because it is not a relinquishment if the US doesn’t agree to recognize it.
The US is of the official opinion that if a tree falls in the forest and no-one at a US consulate or embassy sees it, and no complex paperwork has been filed, the tree has not really fallen.
Likewise, if I owe the US no tax, or don’t even have ANY taxable income, but I haven’t filed the requisite 25 pounds of US forms annually that all say zero, then I am presupposed to be a US tax evader – in the alternate cosmology that revolves around the US with the IRS at the center.
@badger
America truly is the land of the free, because for Americans, anywhere else on the planet isn’t.
@badger – hear, hear. You have translated the US position perfectly.
I am beyond frustration with all of this. I am sickened and anxious about all of it. It has been suggested that I go the streamlined route; I have been asked would I really have any US tax liability; I have been advised to “come clean” about it so I can exit properly. I am Canadian! My accounts – mutual funds, RESPs, RRSPS, TFSAs -are not foreign to me, even though they all pose problems, apparently, in streamlining or coming clean. Do I have US tax liability? How would I know – I am a Canadian! I was born in the US to one Canadian parent and one American parent and have lived in Canada since childhood for 50 years and I am Canadian. I have no connections to the US, don’t need the US, and am, in fact, revolted by the US. I despair.
Badger, your piece on US Cosmology needs further distribution. Who would believe it — apparently not Mr. Stack.
Despair is the tie that binds us, like a thorn in our sides that agitates and keeps us from resting or finding peace.
@DM56
Did you know that you may be a dual citizen from birth, therefore you may be exempt from the exit tax, if applicable?
@bubblebustin Not sure how I would be a dual citizen at birth. My birth abroad was registered when I was 7. Does Canada recognize the citizenship of a child born to a Canadian citizen from the time of birth regardless of when the birth is registered. Even if so, I am not willing to supply any info to the US, expecially with respect to my partner’s details.
DM56
Changes were made to Canada’s Citizenship Act (one year after the introduction of the US exit tax – coincidence?) allowing many children of Canadians born abroad to become Canadians at birth. I was born in the US, moved to Canada with my Canadian born mother at 12 years of age and naturalized to Canada in 1996. I haven’t yet applied for any documentation that states I’m a Canadian at birth, but I believe that tdott, in a similar situation has. Read more at:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp
@DM56
That known, it still doesn’t exempt you from the prerequisite 5 years of tax compliance, however.
@DM56
I went thru the whole sickened, despair, how-unfair-this-is, etc phases too. I suspect most of us did. Is it impossible for you to get a good night’s sleep? It was for me. Are you losing weight due to loss of appetite? I did. You will move past that. In order to get past that you need to understand as much about your situation as possible so that you can make a rational decision on how to move forward.
Towards that end I would suggest that you put your emotions aside to the extent that you can (I realize this is much easier said than done), and determine your tax liability. Even if it’s just a rough idea, you will need this to determine what options are realistically open to you.
If it turns out that being an ostrich is the right thing for you, so be it. Ditto for going streamlined. But you cannot possibly come to a conclusion without a reasonably clear assessment of your situation.
BTW, you are almost certainly a dual from birth. Canadian citizenship rule changes in 2009 make it so even if your registration at age 7 did not.
Again, damn my slow thinking/typing.
bubblebustin beat me to it (with more info than I provided) re the 2009 changes.
And, yes, I’m in a similar situation. I recently applied for and received a shiny new Canadian citizenship certificate that shows my effective date of citizenship as being my date of birth.
@bubblebustin@tdott Thank you – I agree that I am likely a dual citizen from birth, now that I read that. With respect to determining one’s tax liability – how is that done without 1) bringing oneself to the attention of the US 2) spending a ton of money?
I didn’t get too far talking to a US tax lawyer who basically just wanted me to pay penalties and didn’t seem willing to provide info so I could make a determination of how to proceed. I’ve been gun shy ever since
DM56, I know that this is easier said than done, but try not to let this take over your life. I have been there.
It is very good that you are a dual from birth. That gives you a bit of advantage, as others here might be able to explain further. To decide what to do, it is good if you can have some idea of whether you would actually owe any US taxes, and how much – which means having some number of years prepared – in order to see where you stand and see what your options might be.
DM56.. Don’t despair. It is very likely that you don’t need to do anything. Carry on just as you have for 50 yrs. and try to put this out of your mind.
Think about it. The IRS is overworked and underfunded. The tea party with the help of the GOP is in the process of deliberately starving the US government agencies of operating funds They haven’t the resources to chase non residents who are not wealthy. They will go after the low hanging fruit. The only way you will be required to pay anything is if you volunteer to do so. The more you learn the less you will despair and you will learn to be defiant rather than compliant.
@DM56
You’re welcome. I don’t think that I’ll be your best source of advice, as my husband (also a US citizen, born in Canada) and I went into OVDI for various reasons that seemed sensible to us at the time.
I agree with tdott though, you may need a professional or otherwise determination of what your tax liability is after weighing the advantages vs disadvantages of becoming tax compliant, but what’s to stop you from learning as much as you can in the meantime?
@all Thank you for the info and support. My apologies for inadvertently hijacking this thread – my lamentations more properly belong on the other thread about relinquishing and renouncing. I tried to delete posts but was unsuccessful (I don’t see an FAQ with this info).
So, onward to discussing the next anti-FATCA protest activities
@DM56
For an *extremely* rough idea, use one of the online US federal tax calculators to determine what you would owe for 2012 (after converting your income to US dollars). Compare with what you paid to Canada in 2012. If you paid more to Canada, that’s good.
I couldn’t find any calculators for before 2012, so if you want to look at 2011 and before, you’ll have to do it manually using the US federal tax rates readily googleable. If you’re reasonably comfortable with figures, you should be able to do this.
If you sold your principal residence recently, that’s a whole different ball of wax as the US only exempts some of the gain. Also, if you have mutual funds outside of a RRSP, that’s a different story. Most, if not all, tax accountants and tax lawyers will want to treat these as PFICs, which has negative ramifications.
OTOH, pat yourself on the back for walking away from the US tax lawyer. Any lawyer or accountant that tells you at this time to enter OVDI is giving you bad advice.
@DM56
Also, if you’ve never filed a US tax return, there’s no statute of limitations on how far the IRS can go back. tdott’s right, without having sold our house, we would have had no US tax liability.
@bubblebustin, this whole thing has been so arbitrary. Random serendipity or random rotten luck. For example, if someone put the same base amount of savings in GICs vs. mutual funds. Maybe just because they didn’t understand mutual funds or didn’t trust them – and so didn’t have any PFIC complication. Maybe just didn’t get around to going in to talk with a financial advisor. Or, got a TFSA because the bank kept after them to open one. Or a house didn’t sell, so delay happened and so no capital gains. No realization of any extraterritorial US ramifications. Who knew? Some Canadians didn’t hear the 2011 CBC program about the US ‘foreign account’ jihad, and the extended deadline for OVD – and then in the interim, Flaherty’s letter came out and people saw it and decided not to come forward. All random events that the US is exploiting eagerly as much as they can. Happy to punish most those who tried to comply and came forward in the manner they demanded.
Disgusting.
We wanted to sell our home when we found out about this since our property taxes in this neighbourhood have gone through the roof. We haven’t been able to sell it since that would cause all sorts of other issues until I’m totally out. So here we sit paying way higher property tax than we can now afford.
My spouse still not understanding the implications last year insisted we get a financial advisor. *Canadian* we utterly did NOT understand the situation and kept telling my spouse we needed to start opening TFSA’s in MY name. I tried to tell him this wasn’t possible and explain why right now. So he goes and talks to “someone I know who knows about U.S. tax matters* Yeah, RIGHT. Got an email back saying “Nothing has changed, go ahead with my advice” Nobody here really knows how to handle such situations and here is this guy handing out all kinds of dangerous advice!
I didn’t see CBC program…we didn’t have television at that time. I didn’t see Flaherty article either. I purposely went looking to see if I had any further obligations to the U.S. after my mother died. Had I not done that I don’t know if I would STILL know about this. Why would I? I have no income, Canadian spouse makes it all and pays all our tax to Canada. Who in that position would think they ought to go looking on any further obligation to the U.S.? Especially if Irs told them “You didn’t meet the requirement to have to file.” So much bad advice to so many. So many fluster clucks for millions. This is a like a big pile of old extension cords you can’t ever hope to get unwound!
Atticus I like your demonstration, the first. I might suggest though atticusincanada might be rename atticiusinpanic. I write this from China (Beijing, then Xian) which I guess has not been censored. The police officers at every intersection are very polite. Lots of commie blocks here.
@Badger, AtticusinCanada
Boy, you both have that right. I don’t know of any choice THAT ISN’T BAD for those who’re in our positions. It’s either going to cost you money or it’s going to cost you your freedom, and having to make any choice whatsoever comes at an emotional price. Making it all worse is the fact that in order to spare our business partners and loved ones from potential harm, we must each take steps to quarantine ourselves within our respective societies. Is this what America wants for its own people? Probably not, but it seems that the only ones who have the power to stop it are those who’ve inflicted it upon us – and they aren’t. Like Stack, in carrying their government’s water they plow forward in their reckless and wanton pursuit of real and imaginary foes, with no regard whatsoever for the destruction they’re causing in their own people’s lives and of any goodwill they have in the world. We have to ask ourselves if plowing forward with the FATCA campaign is now also a matter of ‘credibility’ for the US, because any other reason now seems senseless.
@bubblebustin, re; ..”We have to ask ourselves if plowing forward with the FATCA campaign is now also a matter of ‘credibility’ for the US, because any other reason now seems senseless.’..
I think that the retired IRS Chief Counsel Attorney Willard (Bill) Yates said something that gave that impression;
….”…The Treasury and IRS have too much invested in FATCA to turn back now. It’s really too bad, but something had to happen. UBS and LGT broke the dam, resulting in the flood of compliance measures manifested by IRS OVDIs and FATCA. The OVDIs caught up a whole lot of people who were totally unaware of their U.S. filing requirements. How could they have been? And, FATCA is hitting U.S. taxpayers living overseas with unforeseen consequences, such as having their foreign bank account(s) closed.
Let’s talk about US tax: So, you think FATCA is a mistake?
Yates: It doesn’t matter what I think, now. FATCA is inevitable….”
See;
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2013/07/22/residence-based-taxation-interview-with-bill-yates-former-attorney-office-of-associate-chief-counsel-international-irs-2/#.Uez248PX494.twitter
Apparently, like US big banks who assist criminals, and commit mortgage crimes against householders, FATCA is “too big to fail” http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/26/opinion/were-all-still-hostages-to-the-big-banks.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
And we all know that US banks have been characterized as ‘too big to prosecute’ http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedkaufman/2013/07/29/why-doj-deemed-bank-execs-too-big-to-jail/ http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/banking-financial-institutions/286583-holder-big-banks-size-complicates-prosecution-efforts – unlike the US Treasury issued blanket unqualified threats made against ALL those ‘non-filers’ living abroad, (including minnows and krill abroad filing and paying a full set of taxes to the country where they actually live) to scare them into OVD.
http://www.occupy.com/article/exposed-irs-colluding-banks-unfairly-target-us-citizens-abroad
UBS, “something had to be done” Yes, SOMETHING but, not this ponderous, unworkable, illegal in many countries, sloppy, ill thought out, piece of life destroying legislation! This is going to put a black mark on the U.S. for decades to come once it really starts to roll out. And for all the Treasury dept.’s fact sheet says, they ought to have thought that out better too! It’s going to be proven that every “FACT” on that sheet was wrong at best and misleading at worst.
I do not understand the leap in logic from doing something about situations like UBS, which netted a small amount of people anyway, to “Let’s subject everybody in the entire world to an expensive, bullying program even in places that are not tax havens!” They have wanted some way to track people much more closely. Something far more odious than what NSA was doing with email and phone calls. As Carl Levin said, in cases where this isn’t about taxes it’s about “data gathering” and “sharing”
I’m going to be SO pissed when finally the alarm bells go off in the U.S. about what this was about really. After all this damage has been done, when THEY are worried about THEIR data being “shared” in such a way then they will say something *as if they thought of it first, and discovered the problem* By then we’ll have all been through it, got out and I”m not going to care one wit when it’s happening to them since precious few of them listened to us canaries in the coal mines.
@Badger
Your ability to quickly assess a situation and provide references is remarkable!