A reader of Isaac Brock sent me the following letter:
Dear CBA:
It’s time for your organization to start standing up for your customers on this issue. You can do much more than encourage the Government to sign onto an egregious foreign governments demand (IGA) to throw Canadian sovereignty out the window to simply protect your members bottom lines.
There comes a time when every person and or organization has to take a principled stand and now is that time for your organization. When the government of Canada says no to signing onto an IGA, which would be tantamount to political suicide, it’s going to land squarely in your court. Are you going to compromise the rights of your loyal customers to respond to what amounts to IRS extortion? Do you think your members and shareholders would support a strong, principled, well funded resistance? Absolutely, once they know the facts. Get the facts out there. Spend some of our money edifying people on this issue. Use the press, use your members resources like the annual rational for increasing fee structures.
It is what it is: The school yard bully wants your lunch money. How do we instruct our kids to handle bully’s? Bully’s don’t expect a fight. It’s time you guys gave them one. It’s time you guys gave something meaningful back to your loyal customers and helped the government of Canada on this issue. Stand up and show some courage and initiative.
I’ll be the first one in line to sign onto a class action if any of my banks ask me where I was born. I’m a Canadian ….end of story.
Sincerely,
[Name withheld by request]
…grrr…there not their!
@USCitizen
I almost feel sorry for CBA having to face the FACTs and spin a response. They have obviously don’t have a stomach for the fight, and probably see short sighted market advantage of kowtowing to the US. They basically value their business in America more than they value your business in Canada, so you know where you sit in importance.
@Just Me
If you lived in Canada you wouldn’t feel sorry for them and I certainly don’t.
The problem has been that the “IGA Dialogue” between the banks and the Canadian Government has sucked up all the “discussion oxygen”. The stakeholder that has been absent from the discussion has been the people of Canada.
The bottom line is very simple.
If FATCA gets up and running in Canada, the U.S. (because of tax rules that run in opposition to Canadian retirement planning), will be able to consistently extract a share of Canada’s GNP. Furthermore, Canada will be become increasingly subject to IRS (not even U.S.) rules. If Canada allows FATCA into the country they might as well let the IRS Commissioner replace Canada’s Governor General. Those who think this statement is extreme simply don’t understand how citizenship-based taxation works and have not read the actual FATCA legislation. For those interested it’s S. 1471 of the IRC.
There is only one possible response to this situation. It’s to say NO to FATCA in any way, shape or form. Let’s hope the Government of Canada has enough sense to NOT allow the Canadian Banks and the Canadian Bankers Association to successfully advocate for a surrender of Canada to the IRS.
Who are these CBA people anyway? Do they work for the US Treasury? They certainly don’t care about Canada. That’s another FATCA.
@USCitizen..
I don’t disagree with what you say. There may be some Treasury plants on the CBA board, who know.
‘Sorry’ is only expressed in terms of what a poor debating position they have. 🙂 There is no logical response that will past the test, other than “Might makes Right” and that is what they are saying, when you strip away all their IGA spin. They have decided they don’t want to take on the giant to the south, and now only have weak propaganda meme as their defensive weapon. It might work on an uniformed electorate in Canada who has no idea what is happening, but they are wasting their words here, sadly enough.
@JustMe,
That is why those of us in the know, have the important job of educating the electorate in Canada, so they are no longer ignorant of the FATCA.
@all
I think Gold and silver coins may be good. and taking out all your money…even the RRSPs…so you pay a lot of tax….then none after than depending on your status..buy a home cash. with or with a friend.
@CBA.
I have a lot of cynicism for you and your fellow bankers..
You are not trying to help at all. Just cover your butts.
Dear CBA, we do not trust you, and neither do our family and friends. Banks already have a significant PR problem- ex. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/five-of-cibcs-banking-blunders/article4365188/
Even those of us who are either simply Canadians (ex. our non-US spouses, children and extended family), those who have already renounced, relinquished long ago, have CLNs, or are awaiting one are now more cynical and suspicious of Canadian banks.
Some of us have already closed accounts with banks and moved to credit unions because we feel that you have been actively working against our interests and the interests of all Canadian taxpayers – who will bear the cost of implementing an IGA, and all account holders – who you will pass the astounding initial and ongoing implementation costs on to. Choosing credit unions over banks has already been done recently by people who oppose banksters – consider this ‘Bank Transfer Day’ http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/fed-up-clients-ditch-banks-for-transfer-day-1.1057688 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Transfer_Day
You cited some letter that you wrote that US newspapers chose not to print. You didn’t try very hard – anti-FATCA pieces – including some by authors here, have now been published in The Hill, The Economist, The National Post, and elsewhere. You have so much more in the way of dedicated PR, lobbyists, connections, and resources – yet you cite a one time attempt to publish something as proof of your efforts?
Have you tried actually buying an ad – a page in the Star, Sun, Globe and National Post in order to get individual Canadians to be alerted to FATCA and to lobby against it? Or to get prepared? NO. Why not? Because you have decided that an IGA is the best outcome for you and your businesses – no matter what that costs all the rest of Canadian society and no matter how much is in conflict with the Charter, and our Constitution. Funny, you spend millions on branding, renovations, ads all over your branches, but nothing on this issue on behalf of the > 1 million that are about to be FATCAnized?
And at the same time as you are readying for FATCA, and are certain that FATCA is in the works and inevitable, I bet you’re still selling Canadian mutual funds and registered savings to the very same unsuspecting Canadian residents and citizens deemed ‘US taxable persons’ that will be shocked to find out that they now own toxic PFICs and US taxable ‘foreign trusts’. You’ve done your clients a double disservice – with no apparent qualms.
Are there simply NO constraints of an ethical nature for banks? Do you not have any social responsibility or accountability in your worldview?
Just admit what your real naked agenda is, because this disingenuous stuff isn’t flying
://www.canadianbusiness.com/blogs-and-comment/banks-image-problems-and-the-ethics-of-lobbying/
http://bridgeable.com/empathy-and-the-agency-problem/
Some of us do NOT have to worry about FATCA for ourselves as individuals, but we strongly resent the backroom lobbying you are doing to help along the implementation of an Canadian IGA. We know that you are being kept apprised by the federal government behind the scenes, and that you have actively lobbied for an IGA. We know that your associated investment arms are doing the same. We resent the way you are activley coluding to subvert the best interests of voters, taxpayers and citizens in Canada. It has not escaped our notice that one of you – TD – has more branches in the US than in Canada. Others have had to pay off the US government and settle your involvement in various dubious practices
Don’t you care about customer satisfaction and retention? http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=854909&show=abstract Or, are you banking on us having no choices, and thus you’ll continue to carve up the market in your usual ways, regardless of FATCA?
Our credit unions might give in to FATCA, but we have good reason to believe that they have not taken the role of collaborators and pro-IGA-FATCAlobbyists that you have. Thus, no matter what happens, I’d choose a credit union over a CBA member. Canadians might eventually be forced to comply, but we don’t have to like it, and we can choose not to reward you with our assets.
We refuse to invest with you, to give you our mortgage and loan business, and to minimize our relationships with you as much as we can. And we will do our very best to persuade friends and family to do the same.
We may be FATCAnized, but we don’t have to like it, and we don’t have to lend you our money.
Bravo Badger. One more point I would like to add. I previously had money invested in Canadian bank mutual funds because I thought I was dealing with ethical organizations. I have removed my investments from there. I now get profit sharing on my investments with my credit union, higher interest rates and far superior customer service.
I’m not sure why I continue to be surprised. My bank hasn’t been the same since TD took over Canada Trust several years ago.
@USCitizenAbroad: Former U.S. Ambassador to Canada David Jacobson (the one who insisted IRS wasn’t after “Canadian Grandmas”) was appointed Vice-Chair of BMO on completion of his time at the US Embassy in Ottawa.
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/05/21/bmo-taps-outspoken-u-s-ambassador-to-canada-for-vice-chairman-role/
What does that, combined with the fact TD has more branches in US than in Canada, tell us? Where do you think their loyalty is? Even though they took over Canada Trust several years ago, TD can’t hold a candle to Canada Trust in customer service, loyalty and trust.
@ Canadian Bankers Association
Appreciate your participation here. Because there are so many reasons to oppose FATCA, I’ve focused on defining the “national origin discrimination” aspect whereby many Canadian citizens whose only tie to the US is place of birth would be disenfranchised and have their dignity and privacy degraded by a Canadian government FATCA IGA.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/10/11/customer-complaint-to-the-canadian-bankers-association/comment-page-1/#comment-587726
However, here a few additional comments to consider beyond that.
1) The outrage over FATCA voiced here is minor compared to the outrage that will erupt when hundreds of thousands of unsuspecting Canadians have FATCA stuffed down their throats. The first response to any IGA that discriminates against these thousands Canadians due to birthplace will likely be legal action.
2) FATCA is a trade war and the threat of withholding against payee institutions is a egregious unilateral trade sanction. Have the world’s banks consulted each other regarding possible sanctions in response? The world’s financial industry is a mighty force, and the US government is dysfunctional, deeply divided and by any conventional accounting near bankruptcy. This is a debtor state that needs the world’s trust, credit and continued investment. Have you really done your best using all your resources and influence?
3) Why indeed has there not been a single public newspaper ad or similar attempt to alert Canadians against this threat to their well-being? There has been zero effort to mobilize the Canadian public to political action regarding FATCA. This has been a back-room deal between the banks and the Canadian government. It is utterly disingenuous and unreasonable to claim no knowledge of the content of the forthcoming IGA. The banks wanted it, they lobbied the Canadian government for it, and now they are saying it is “beyond their control”?
4) Canadians victimized by FATCA will NEVER FORGET this betrayal of trust and sovereign interests. The harm and distress this will cause among so many law-abiding Canadians is disgraceful. They will NEVER AGAIN trust their government, or their banks, insurers, or investment advisers.
FATCA will certainly change *”What Canadians Think About Their Banks”
to
Every day can be: “Bank Transfer Day”!
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/11/bank-transfer-day-credit-union-regional-banks-virtual-banks-consumer-reports/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Transfer_Day
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/fed-up-clients-ditch-banks-for-transfer-day-1.1057688
http://www.cbc.ca/day6/blog/2011/10/14/bank-transfer-day/
And our personal data is under attack in the Canadian banking sphere – not only under FATCA, but:
http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2013/10/11/the_great_canadian_personal_data_grab_geist.html
The CBA appears to do consumer research on the issue of what Canadians think about their banks:
*From the CBA website:
http://www.cba.ca/en/media-room/50-backgrounders-on-banking-issues/480-what-canadians-think-about-their-banks
What Canadians Think About Their Banks
Last modified: 11 September 2013
…….”…..Given the nature of this relationship, trust and confidence are vitally important.
But trust and confidence are only part of it; equally as important are customer service and the value that customers feel they get from their bank.”…..
Is it important to CBA members what Canadians think of them?
https://www.facebook.com/BoycottRoyalBankOfCanada?filter=2
@USCitizenAbroad
I understand how it benefits Canadian banks to have the Canadian government as the party delivering FATCA, so shouldn’t we also be pressing the Canadian government to lobbying for FATCA’s repeal if that’s what we feel it would take? I can also see how the CBA would feel it’s the Canadian government’s place to defend them against the extortionate demands of a foreign government. Anyone else would be in jail by now.
Let’s say we start protesting FATCA where the CBA is having an event!
Northern star VERY bad advice. RRSPs will be exempt. Virtually no accounts under 1 million will be reported.
Another ‘Bank Transfer Day’ would be a good idea.
In addition, what about a ‘Make a Scene at the Bank’ day? Ex-Us persons, play dumb, and tell the nice lady at the bank where they are born, then make a scene when told they must prove their non-US status. Lord knows, many Brockers are either renounced/relinquished or in the process, so it wouldn’t be hard to gather a number of people across the country. I think that only one or two who participated in the Ottawa protest were still legally ‘American’.
Imagine what fun that would be!
I want to do a little work on the FATCA handout to Canadianize it a bit re: some comments we received at the Ottawa protest, just haven’t got around to it. After I do, I will post it here to see what people think. Then I am going to take copies and put them on the windshields of cars parked in front of banks I happen to see while out and about.
@WhiteKat
I thought about that but bank parking lots are private property and they have cameras. I’d worry about retribution against Isaac Brock.
@NorthernStar, Kalc
Yeah, RRSPs will be exempt for sure. If anything this is where you want to put MORE $, not less, if you have the contribution room. Actually, you can put more in RRSPs than you have in contribution room, and carry forward the RRSP deduction to future years if necessary.
Buying property is a good idea though if you need to get non-registered money out of the bank (although we are in a housing bubble right now, so it might not be a good investment, but at least it will be out of the banks)
@bubblebustin, Good point. Well, MOST (not all) people use financial institutions (not necessarily banks), so I guess it doesn’t matter which cars you put flyers on. I am also planning to post them on mail boxes, grocery stores, libraries, etc.
I have a quick question for the CBA if they are still listening.
At this time IF a signed IGA was voted down by Parliament and thus if requirements were unable to implemented into Canadian tax law, would Canadian banks either accept 30% FATCA withholding on themselves and customers OR attempt to comply with FATCA in the absence of an in force IGA between Canada and the US?
We’ll remove all our assets and holdings from our bank as well. We’ll go to our very good small C.U. here and won’t look back. I don’t intend to stop there. FATCA will get a LOT of press and since we’re being sold out after having been decades long good customers we’ll have nothing to lose by educating every single citizen we can in our community as to how far they can trust their bank. I too never saw any fight in the banks FOR the customers. All I read was about how they could comply, cost to them, etc. They didn’t want it not because of us the customer but, because of the problems it could cause them. They’ll be fine with it if our laws are changed to cover them hence the statements about “following the law” Which? The “new” law or the Charter of Rights?
Further if Canadian law is changed to go along with this and the banks don’t fight that it clearly shows they cared nothing whatsoever for our Charter of Rights which WILL have to be violated in order to go along with this insanity. Bottom line. The U.S. will control Canada’s banking laws now. We all know how good they’ve been with their own banking laws. Failure for years now. Failure to prevent predatory lending, failure to prevent the housing crisis, indeed causing it to happen. Their bankers were criminals in that entire disaster and yet for some reason we’re going to listen to them about how to run our banks which didn’t have the same issues they did? For what? For the customer? No. To prevent tax evasion?NO the vast majority of families with any U.S. connection wouldn’t owe them any taxes, ever. I’ll say one thing, those here might be small and we might not have the money bankers and law makers do but, at least we fought hard for the right thing. We stood up in the face of the horrible IRS, Treasury and U.S. threats against our families. I fail to understand how a small group of Canadians can do so much to fight back against this while bankers throw up their hands and say they can’t do anything.
Did you ask the U.S. to exempt long term residents here with NO U.S. holdings? I’d love to have been a fly on the wall to see just exactly what was said or not said in our defense.
CBA, might have fought FATCA but, I never heard a strong statement about the rights of their customers. Only how THEY would be affected. As long as their butt is covered they don’t care how we are affected or about the laws of CANADA being protected. NOT the laws of the U.S.A., the laws of CANADA.
This IS discrimination no matter if Canada changes the “law” or not. It’s immoral beyond belief. If they will go along with this, then no one should trust them at all whether a U.S. person is connected to your family or not. What’s next then? Why should ANYONE trust their bank to do what is right and moral if they won’t stand up and say “No” to this. It’s a disgrace and a complete sell out of Canada to the U.S.
At least I can sleep at night knowing I and others have done all in our power to protect innocent families from being made into targets by a foreign country when they have done nothing wrong.
Bubblebustin –
I thought about that but bank parking lots are private property and they have cameras. I’d worry about retribution against Isaac Brock.
The cop inside your head will make sure all of your protest is utterly acceptable to the banks and the governments and the mainstream media —
@usxcanada
You don’t think that the bank that pays a lease for the use of that parking lot won’t do something to stop it?
Tim. The big banks have already stated what they will do in the absence of an IGA. For example. BNS.
‘In all other countries, we intend to comply with FATCA while maintaining strict adherence to existing banking and tax regulations.’
Scotiabank, has had a notice up about going along with this for a long time now. IGA or not.