Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
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What if I visit Montreal and when I return to New Hampshire at the Pittsburg crossing, my passport is either missing or expired? If I don’t have a USA passport but I am a USA citizen (and I do live in NH) don’t they have to let me into “my” country, passport or no?
So if you flash a Canadian passport saying you were born in USA, then you either ARE or ARE NOT a US citizen. If you ARE a USA citizen then you have a RIGHT to enter USA and if you are not a USA citizen then you are forbidden to have a USA passport.
Oh, I forgot. This makes sense, so it does not apply.
I’ve travelled to the U.S. a few times since this past spring on my Canadian passport declaring myself Canadian.
First time was into Las Vegas. US border agent asked me if I had a US passport. I said yes, but was in process of getting rid of. He asked if I was renouncing. I said no, documenting prior relinquishment from becoming a Canadian citizen. Friendly guy– had no issues with this/no hassles. Waved past.
Two flights into Seattle. Family travelling on US passports, me on Canadian passport. No questions– waved past.
One car trip into Washington state. Again, family on US passports with me having the lone Canadian passport. Border agent was a pretty miserable personality but no questions about US passport, citizenship, place of birth, etc.
My take: the State Department/US government may create hoops and hurdles to relinquishing US citizenship. The right to exit the US and take a different nationality, however, is a human right as espoused within the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The prerogative to travel as a Canadian is mine– at this point, I insist on entering the US as a Canadian.
I hope this summary of my experiences is of benefit to others.
Note: I unsuccessfully attempted to document my prior relinquishment of USC in April of this year.
I went across the border to the US from BC a couple weeks ago. I have never had a US passport. I was born in the USA but became a Canaduan citizen in the 90s. Last year I went formally to ask for my US CLN , backdated to the year I became a Canadian citizen, I received it this past spring. Going over the border, the friendly agent never asked where I was born. Just where I was going and what I was bringing in.
I spent 6 days seeing the famous natural landmarks I have never seen.before.
Never spoke at any length to anyone. It was a beautiful visual visit. I bought 2 shooter glasses and 2 post cards in the USA. In the USA I spent my money in lodging and restaurants and one park pass.. 10 days in Canada and 6 in the USA. Nice trip.
I am thankful I do not have FATCA to fear now. I contribute to the fight in the suite in Canada for those are affected by this immoral law,
For me it is a downer when those I know personally who are expats, green card holders and snowbirds will not and do not want to talk about FATCA, no less contribute. My Canadian best friends do not care. They say it is good I am safe, otherwise tbey do not care. Apathy is hard to fight.
@BC Doc; ” I unsuccessfully attempted to document my prior relinquishment of USC in April of this year.”
High five from across the seas………
You should have stated, I unsuccessfully attempted to obtain a CLN of my prior relinquishment of USC in April of this year.
For FATCA purposes and IGA Banking purposes, you may be able to document your prior relinquishment with your records under the reasonable explanation clause.
http://tax-expatriation.com/2014/09/11/part-iii-of-iii-tracking-travelers-entries-and-exits-guest-immigration-law-post-by-atty-mr-jan-bejar/
I see that TIGTA is urging the IRS to do more to collect from ‘international taxpayers’ .
A recent report opens with this:
“WHY TIGTA DID THE AUDIT”
“The IRS faces many unique challenges in collecting taxes from international taxpayers. Moreover, the IRS does not have reliable statistics on the rate of noncompliance of these taxpayers with their U.S. tax obligations. The overall objective of this review was to evaluate the IRS’s collection efforts on delinquent taxpayers residing in foreign countries.”
One of the TIGTA recommendations is for the IRS/Treasury to try to get better – direct access to a Homeland Security database in order to contact and ‘interview’ people deemed to be “delinquent international taxpayers” whose names have been entered into some kind of list called TECS – and flag them for contact when they enter or attempt to enter the US.
Read the whole TIGTA report http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2014reports/201430054fr.html#value as well as this section:
As per DHS database I refer to above, see particularly section:
” ‘The Value of the “Customs Hold” As an Enforcement Tool Has Not Been Assessed’ ”
“International revenue officers can request that a Customs Hold be input into the Treasury Enforcement Communication System (TECS) for delinquent taxpayers. Once the taxpayer is on the TECS, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) notifies the IRS whenever the taxpayer travels into the United States. During our interviews with a judgmental sample of 15 international revenue officers and all five group managers, many identified the Customs Hold as one of the most effective enforcement tools available to them in dealing with delinquent international taxpayers. International revenue officers use information obtained through a Customs Hold to attempt to contact the taxpayers while they are in the United States and/or locate the taxpayers’ assets.
The TECS is a database maintained by the DHS and is used extensively by the law enforcement community. Taxpayers are informed with a Letter 4106, Letter Advising Taxpayer of Department of Homeland Security Notification, that an international revenue officer has taken action to advise the DHS that the taxpayer has outstanding tax liabilities and that this may result in an interview by a Customs and Border Protection Officer if the taxpayer attempts to enter the United States. There is a Memorandum of Understanding[7] between the IRS and the DHS that allows Customs and Border Protection Officers to stop delinquent taxpayers identified on the TECS to collect their contact information of where they will be staying while in the United States.
According to the TECS Coordinator, the international revenue officer must submit a completed Form 6668, TECS Entry Request, to have a Customs Hold placed on a taxpayer. The form is sent to the group manager for a signature and e-mailed to the TECS Coordinator. The TECS Coordinator maintains a spreadsheet to document taxpayers added to or deleted from the TECS. According to the spreadsheet, there are approximately 1,700 taxpayers on the TECS with approximately $1.6 billion in delinquent tax assessments. This includes assessments of approximately $1.1 billion solely owed by international taxpayers. The IRS keeps no record of the dollars collected as a result of the Customs Holds and the subsequent interactions with the delinquent taxpayer. As a result, the actual value of the Customs Hold as an enforcement tool is unknown.
The TECS Coordinator does not have direct access to the system
The TECS Coordinator must submit all requests for taxpayers to be added to or deleted from the TECS through the IRS’s Criminal Investigation. The TECS Coordinator is assigned to the SB/SE Division’s Collection Field function Information Technology and Security office and does not have direct access to the TECS. As a result, the TECS Coordinator cannot independently verify that any requested actions related to the TECS have actually occurred, which could cause:
Taxpayers who have become compliant to be unnecessarily delayed by Customs and Border Protection Officers because they were not properly deleted from the TECS.
The IRS to not obtain updated taxpayer contact information because the taxpayer was never input into the TECS……….”………….
Many inadvertently hilarious (not) and ironic references to TIGTA’s concern with treating international taxpayers ‘equitably’, and providing ‘service’ to them, while at the same time urging enforcement of CBT – which of course is predicated with treating them the same as if they were US residents – the very root of the inequity. The report also notes that the knowledge of IRS personnel re international tax issues is very low, and that training in that area has been done by IRS personnel volunteers – with no actual training or adequate knowledge:
“We reviewed the training materials for four of the six international training topics and found that they were not always developed or taught by Subject Matter Experts. We found that some topics were developed by lower graded and/or inexperienced international revenue officers who volunteered to research, develop, and teach the topic. ………………..For example, the Adjustments and Penalties topic included incorrect information on where to send international adjustments to be processed, which we were told caused significant delays to the resolution of hundreds of cases and may have negatively impacted customer service to international taxpayers……..”
http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2014reports/201430054fr.html#value
Also note this ridiculous reference to those living in high tax societies – with, as usual, no actual basis : “…. taxpayers who can afford to live in a country with a higher cost of living may be in a better position to pay their tax debts than taxpayers who can afford to live only in a country with a low cost of living.” See Footnote 5
from http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2014reports/201430054fr.html#value
TREASURY INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR TAX ADMINISTRATION
‘The Internal Revenue Service Needs to Enhance Its International Collection Efforts’
September 12, 2014
Reference Number: 2014-30-054
This pursuit of extraterritorial CBT at all costs is all the more reason not to go to the US unless one absolutely must – even if one is compliant from abroad, or has formally exited according to US law. Even TIGTA notes the potential for; “….Taxpayers who have become compliant to be unnecessarily delayed by Customs and Border Protection Officers because they were not properly deleted from the TECS…”.
Given that the US refuses to make any adjustments to CBT, and is set on treating Canada as an ‘offshore tax haven’, and claiming Canadian citizens and residents to be US taxpayers, I can foresee a definite drop in tourism for all the US border areas if the IRS/Treasury does indeed get better direct access to Homeland Security databases. And the tourism industry and the National Retail Sales members in Levin and Schumer’s border states of New York and Michigan will wonder why Florida starts to see a drop in visitors from Canada. Because if one person in a Canadian family is shackled by extraterritorial CBT, that family is not going to even consider travelling to the US for some crossborder shopping or sightseeing. They won’t be buying those Florida timeshare or Arizona retirement community properties, or going to Disneyworld/land.
Important to note that it is the Harper government who has pursued the ‘Beyond the Border’ initiatives with the US which would see more sharing and tracking of US and Canadian citizens exit and entrance – and the sharing of data. Which means that Harper is a direct collaborator in whatever fallout there may be from TIGTA urging the IRS/Treasury to use the “Customs Hold” enforcement tool, TECS, and the Homeland Security databases, and pursuing more internationals (ex. Canadian and dual) – whether warranted or not.
There is no end to the madness of the US. Obviously TIGTA must realize that many of those entering the US who might potentially end up on their lists would be *Canadians because of the sheer amount of crossborder traffic, familial and other crossborder relationships – and if they think that merely living in a high cost of living country is synonymous with being someone who can afford to pay US taxes on top of what they already pay where they live – then they obviously are likely to look at Canada as a place full of potential US taxpayers who can afford to pay up.
*For example, see:
http://travel.trade.gov/outreachpages/inbound.general_information.inbound_overview.html
and,
http://travel.trade.gov/outreachpages/inbound.country_in_north_america.canada.html
and,
“…Of the ten highest spending nationalities, Canadian travelers contributed the most, $27 billion, which is not surprising given that they visit the U.S. in higher numbers than any other country……”
http://skift.com/2014/04/09/the-10-tourists-that-spent-the-most-in-the-u-s-in-2013/
I do think that in retaliation for FATCA we should boycott the US, don’t crossborder shop, or travel there as tourists, and divest or avoid any US investments – and generally refuse to travel there unless we have a very compelling (ex. family) reason to go there – even if we have renounced and/or are compliant.
Lets tell the US National Retail Federation and the American Chamber of Commerce that we refuse to spend money in the US, as direct retaliation for FATCA.
Thank you for that, Badger.
A lot of steps have to happen between being detected as a USP by our banks before we are determined to have a US tax liability.
Obviously the US doesn’t have the processes in place, nor the funds to create those processes to get from point A to B. They can only handle the low hanging fruit for now, those who have the immediate necessity to be US tax compliant. They could probably get funds allocated from Congress if they can show some success at revenue generation, however. The fly in the ointment will be the renunciations, but then if even they’re a revenue generator, who will care? WHO WILL CARE?
Here’s the TIGTA sentence that catches my eye:
The good news is that you would receive a liabilities letter prior to any border action being taken. The bad news is that once you receive a letter like that, you would cease to delight in the non-enforcement of the Reed provision for exclusion at the border.
@USXCANADA — unless they surprise you with a writ ne exeat republica or a customs order preventing departure like this guy..
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jayadkisson/2014/02/07/a-wedding-and-the-writ-of-ne-exeat-republica/
Their list of International collections tools here: http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-021-003.html
5.21.3.1 Introduction
5.21.3.2 Levy on a Domestic Branch of a Financial Institution
5.21.3.3 Writ Ne Exeat Republica
5.21.3.4 Customs Order or Prevent Departure Order
5.21.3.5 Appointment of a Receiver
5.21.3.6 Suit to Repatriate Property – Repatriation Orders
RMA there is a WORLD of difference between Joe Canuck and the guy in the FOrbes article. For Joe , they don’t know whether or not he owes any money so they can’t go to court to get an order of any kind. In the case of the guy in the Forbes piece, he had fraudulently obtained a large tax rebate and the gov went to court to get it back. They then tried to flee the country. Apples and oranges.
Sorry if this has already been asked, but I was wondering if anyone has requested that their place of birth not appear on their Canadian passport. What happens when you try to enter the U.S. with a Canadian passport that doesn’t show a place of birth? My assumption would be that they will ask, in which case you will have to answer, which defeats the purpose.
Also, someone mentioned that rather than requesting the place of birth be omitted, you can simply write the name of the city in the appropriate spot on the passport application but leave the country blank. The idea is that this would be less conspicuous than having a blank space under place of birth. Does anyone know if this is possible and/or has anyone done this?
Nick, of course you can apply for a passport that does not have your place of birth on it. Some countries however do not admit such persons when they are traveling. I really don’t think it would solve any problems and anyway the U.S. will have the information that you either relinquished/renounced or did not. I wouldn’t bother getting a special passport that doesn’t have my place of birth on it in any case. If I am asked questions I will answer honestly and I expect at times I will be asked about it. That really is no different though than having been asked questions in the past. I expect border guards and officials will continue to do their jobs as they always have. I’ve been crossing the Canada/U.S. border for over thirty years occassionally and over the years have had some odd ball questions but, that is really what they are supposed to do. Most all of them have been business like but, pleasant enough. I suspect they will be in the future too but, one does sometimes run into the agent who has had an especially bad day and who seems to take delight in being surly. That’s okay too and don’t let it bother you. Part of that is just their job. They ask questions intended to startle or upset those who may be criminals and to see how such a person will react. Just do as you have always done and be truthful. I relinquished *had to, no choice* but, I’ve never broken any law and suspect border crossings to be business as usual for nearly everyone. I DO think in the future they WILL be co ordinating a lot more with IRS so I think it will be neccessary for people to be up to date with their filings if they expect smooth sailing. We’re not there yet but, it is coming. Last trip I even traveled with *Proably not neccessary* copies of my tax forms and 8854 in case someone REALLY wanted to know. Let them ask, if they want to. I’ve nothing to hide and I never did have anything to hide. If you take your birthplace off your passport from what I have read that is a big red flag to many border crossing officials.
Several years ago at a time of increased skyjackings and increased threats to US citizens, I inquired about the option of having my birthplace not cited on my passport, I learned that several countries that I would like to visit required a birthplace on the passport. I suggest you ask Passport Canada for that list before deciding which type of passport to get. I continue to use my Canadian passport with US place of birth. The US birthplace is only commented upon occasionally when entering the US. It has never been an issue travelling to Cuba or Russia.
I understand the problems related to having no birthplace, but what about just the name of the city listed, not the country? I was told it is possible but haven’t confirmed, does anyone know? Many countries only indicate the name of the city under place of birth so I’m think that if this is possible with Canadian passports, it should work for most countries.
I think that it has been previously stated that the US is one of those countries that require a place of birth to enter (when discussing the enhanced driver’s licence that is OK for land crossings but not air travel).
But again, does place of birth mean the country has to appear (as opposed to a city).
Nick, best to check with the Passport people, the authoritative source. Others here have given their opinions on likely consequences / raising flags for not showing your country on your passport. Sort of like buyer beware.
@Nick: About 10 years ago (long before FATCA and IRS issues), I asked to have my passport without country of birth.
The employee grimaced and said “We can do that. You should be aware there are 16 countries that will not admit anyone with a passport that does not give country of birth. The United States is one of them,”
Because my mother was still living, I needed to be able to travel to the U.S. so I didn’t bother asking what the other 15 countries are.
Only twice in over 40 years of crossing the border have I been advised to get a U.S. passport. I ignored the advice both times and have had no problems crossing with a Canadian passport with a U.S. place of birth.
Since my mother’s death in January, I do not intend to travel to the U.S. again.
@Nick
I tend to agree with Atticus that having an absent or incomplete (ie. city only, no country) place of birth could raise a red flag with a US border agent. Personally I think one is more likely (at present) to fly under the radar with a USA place of birth on a Canadian passport – border agents likely see that a lot and probably view it as fairly routine.
I have never in my life been told to get a US passport (but maybe I’ve just been lucky) and I have crossed the border 14 times since FATCA became law in 2010. However, as Atticus notes, things may change in a big way re. IRS checks/info sharing etc. Similar to Blaze’s position, I have accepted that I may not travel to the US again for a long time, if ever.
I travelled to the US by air in October 2013 and nothing was said about my Canadian passport with a US birthplace. I don’t plan to cross the US border again, I think the border guards will be looking more closely soon I have travelled to the US maybe a dozen times in the last 35 years (sometimes carrying my US birth certificate with my Canadian drivers licence, prior to the requirement of a passport) and only once, a few years ago have I ever had a comment about my US birthplace on my passport. I was asked what State I was born in (my passport only has city and country), when I moved to Canada and how old I was at the time. I believed at the time that I had lost the US citizenship due to residency rules so I told him I no longer had US citizenship. He proceeded to tell me how wonderful US citizenship was and that I should look into being dual.
Ok, just about everyone seems to agree that omitting the country of birth is probably more of a red flag than having the U.S. place of birth…when travelling to the U.S. I doubt that border agents in other countries would notice, though, since many countries only have the city. The one thing I do know is that I would rather never step foot in the U.S. again than get a U.S. passport.
I have to travel to the U.S. 2 or 3 times a year for professional reasons, and I find that agents at Pearson Airport are increasingly making comments about the U.S. birthplace and questioning if I am a citizen. They never used to ask in the past. It seems like I am being asked more than other people here, who have mostly posted that they are rarely if ever asked. In any case it makes me uncomfortable but I’ve never actually had a problem going through. Last time, the guy asked how long I’ve been in Canada (to which I truthfully responded all my life). He then asked if I had ever inquired about citizenship and I said no. He said nothing else and wished me a good trip. Still, my sense is that something must have happened…they have been instructed to look for a U.S. birthplace and ask but they have apparently not been told (yet!) to do anything more than that.
a friend asked me to post this so here goes…….
I recently spoke to a friend that renounced in 1973. He has been travelling to the US for over 40 years on a Canadian passport and has only been asked once, a few years ago, why he didn’t have a US passport and he said he was a Canadian and nothing more was said. Last week he was flying to Waikiki from Vancouver. He had a Nexus card and a Canadian passport. In the past, with Nexus, the first step was an eye scan for identification. This time the first step was scanning his passport. When he inserted his passport the following message was displayed: “all US persons must travel on a US passport. Please report to passport/border control”. He went to the border patrol officer and said that his passport had been rejected. The officer looked at the Canadian passport, held it up to the light and compared the photo, asked where he lived, where he was going and how much cash he was carrying. The officer then returned the passport and said “have a good trip”. His passport never got stamped and he was not asked where he was born.
Interesting re the TECS database:
http://tax-expatriation.com/2014/12/03/neither-confirm-nor-deny-the-existence-of-the-tecs-data-irs-using-the-tecs-database-to-track-taxpayers-movements/
“………….the IRS training materials demonstrates the secrecy of the TECs database and what steps the IRS tells their agents to take regarding the TECs database. The following excerpt directly from the IRS “Matrix Application Training International Individual Compliance: Basic Structures Part II: Pre-Audit, Investigative Techniques & Statutes”
• IRM 5.1.18.14.10 – Covers using TECS Historical Travel Information
“…..First and foremost, do not discuss the existence of TECS with the taxpayers. We must neither confirm nor deny the existence of TECS data….”
@badger
More secret crap… why can’t the US be up front with their junk… always terrorist this… terrorist that… they ever question why the US is so hated by all instead? How about treating human beings as innocent instead of guilty…
There is a border person on Twitter who says that they are fearful of letting their son play hockey in the US across the border – as in the competition there are US and Canadian teams – as their son is Canadian but sounds like US personhood through parent and has no US passport. The fear is that once seized they may not get their son back. Is this all true or overblown?