Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
If clicking on a comment link in the sidebar brings you to the wrong page in the comment stream, click here to go directly to the most recent comment page.
@Notamused and @Mark, my understanding is that It’s becoming routine for all aliens to be fingerprinted and photographed when entering the US, and is nothing to do with renunciation.
As for Norway and Sweden’s surveillance, I believe that modern technology is creating Orwellian conditions worldwide.
@monalisa1776, yes, standard for anyone except Canadians, it seems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-VISIT
Intrusive, demeaning, and doubtless yet another disincentive to travel to the US, but at least you don’t have to feel personally victimized. When it comes to discrimination against people who are not US citizens the US has a mostly ‘equal opportunities’ regime in place.
Travelling to US through Pearson Airport, Toronto, Canada in May 2014. (US Customs are in the airport.)
I have a US birth place in my Canadian passport so there was discussion that lead to me saying that I had applied for a CLN. Next question: When? Answer: April. How long would it take? I was told six months. (I had a copy of the letter I had requested from the consulate indicating that I was in the process of relinquishing, but I didn’t need to show it.)
Then either a fishing expedition or the agent sincerely was curious as to why anyone would give up US citizenship: Do people give up US citizenship for tax reasons? I answered that not for avoiding paying taxes, although I couldn’t speak for those with lots of money, but possibly the paperwork involved. Personally I had become a Canadian citizen years ago and was just informing the State Department of my reality.
Thank you for that update @Voyons.
I recently travelled to Canada and the USA. I entered Canada on my European passport. I took a Greyhound bus from Montreal to Plattsburgh where I presented a US passport card that I obtained for the purpose. I haven’t been to the USA in years and have no plans to return, but had some errands that needed to be done in both countries. There was some considerable wait while passengers from the bus were processed at Rouses Point, and one was taken into a back room and never seen again. Otherwise the interviews were businesslike but not friendly as I remember them from decades ago. I was asked where in the USA I lived and I gave the name of a state at random. (“Never volunteer information” is advice I got from my Dad more than 50 years ago.) I flew from Plattsburgh Airport to my destination and weeks later took Amtrak from NYC to Montreal. We did not stop at the US side, and the Canadian immigration official was mainly interested in whether I speak French (I do and I did), and how long I was staying (24 hours, I had my flight reservation).
What I did not see, is what can be seen on YouTube: harassment of alien-looking people on board trains and buses and near railroad stations and bus terminals in every border state. But that’s something I see in Europe too. Except in the UK and Ireland, maybe the only European countries where you aren’t expected to have your passport with you all the time.
I should add to the above: I am aware that there is such thing as a writ “ne exeat republica” (I suppose for Canada it would be “ne exeat regno”) but these things are very rare. And indeed can be counterproductive for the IRS: http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml For a Canadian-American nothing (other than the writ itself) could prevent someone, having had his or her passport(s) seized and lodged in court, from crossing the border on foot into Canada and seeking refuge. Or walking into Mexico, where no personal ID is demanded, getting a new passport from the Canadian consulate in Tiujana, and flying home. Of course the flight could be ordered to land while over US territory, but presumably no one reading this is wanted the way Edward Snowden was wanted when he was suspected of maybe being aboard the Bolivian president’s airplane when it was forced to land in Vienna.
I made my first visit to the USA last weekend by car since I received my CLN in May. The 3 cars ahead were each questioned a long time. One sent to the side. We pulled up and gave our passports. The custom officer asked where we were going. We said we were just going over to see the Falls from the American side and returning in a few hours. He asked where we lived. And then said “have a nice day”. Took less than 3 minutes. We drove around and then returned to tell the Cdn customs officer the same, that we drove over to see the Falls from the American side. We had not bought anything to declare. He too said have a nice day. 3 minute stop also.
I guess my CLN is in the system. There was no hostility or “looks”.
I call myself American Canadian. Born in the USA but only Canadian.
My spouse and I have had our CLN’s for 2 years now…We have crossed the U.S. border several times and have never had a sideways glance…I have been tempted to ask them if our CLN’s are in their computers…But so far I have resisted the urge.
The general rule at border crossings is that you show the documents issued by the country you are entering. If you are a dual CDN/US national, you show US papers when entering the USA and CDN papers when entering Canada. I have been told this by US officials, CDN officials, and I know it to be true of other countries if you are a citizen of those states – Poland, for example, honors dual citizenship but insists you show Polish papers at the border. Obviously does not apply to foreigners who are only visiting.
That’s how it is, better to be aware than risk the ire, bitchiness or worse of a cranky border trooper with a power trip or something to prove.
Standing on principle, and waving a Canadian, Bulgarian, German, Brazilian, etc passport in a border officer’s face when it is clear that you are also a US citizen but doing so because you think it should be your right, is just asking for trouble.
As for being asked for your past filings by US border officials, it sounds like a pain in the ass type who wanted to ruin your day. That said, I have been living outside the US for many years but still cross into the US using a US passport. No one has ever asked me for financials, tax info, etc.
On a final note, if you have crossed enough borders you would know that as a general rule of thumb, border officials are not paid to have a sense of humor and the career is a good destination worldwide for power-trippers, narcissists, nags, bores, and bossy little men and women who get a kick out of telling others what to do while going through their bags.
According to the information John Richardson gave at the recent US tax info session in Vancouver, the second less-known half of the law states that US citizens are required to present their US passports when EXITING the US too. Kind of complicates things for US/Canadian citizens entering Canada, doesn’t it?
when my wife and i were traveling to the states on the remembrance day weekend i had the pleasure of spending 15 minutes discussing me entering the us of a with my canadian passport showing an american birth place.
the border guard told me i know that xxx has a post office and if i were you i would make that my first stop and get a passport application.
my wife and i knowing nothing of the looming FATCA crisis of course did nothing of the sort but rather bought a six pac of beer and a dozen oysters and went to the beach to enjoy our break from life.
upon my return to canada and a conversation with my mother did i find out about this beast we call FATCA.
it was upon my return and subsequent conversation’s that has me convinced to never cross the border again and to not give up one piece of identification about my self to the americans nor the banks.
all they will be getting from me is “i am canadian” here is my certificate of citizenship!!!
bubblebustin, mettleman,
When I was still considered a dual citizen (before CLN), I travelled on my newly acquired US passport (applied for as I was intimidated at the border and told the next time I entered the US it must be with a US passport) the one and only time used as my Canadian passport was about to expire. At the border returning to Canada (by car), I showed my fresh new US passport (and of course my car had Alberta plates). I was asked the usual question: Where do you live?, to which I answered “Calgary”. I was asked if I had a Canadian passport and I explained that it (by now) had expired. They asked if I had it with me — I did, so “Yes”. They had me enter back into Canada on my now-expired Canadian passport rather than the US passport that I showed first.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/traveling_to_canada/entering-canada.html
my problem is solved whereby for international travel i enter mexico or cuba or any other country in the world except for america on my canadian passport and then return to canada on my canadian passport.
i will never cross the border into america again there by eliminating the need for a us of a passport
for the forseeable future i have my banking needs taken care of and if questioned by a bank i plan on only showing my canadian certificate of citzenship and telling them they can take a hike if they inquire about my nationality!
Don’t forget, 30th June, US & Canada will be sharing all border info… swiping of passport to keep track of u… As a snowbird.. u have to be very careful… if u are out of Canada in the US too long… u get to pay worldwide on your income in the State & Canada… U are also deemed by our own wonderful country of Canada… having deemed left & u must pay an exit tax… I am sad to say… Big Brother is now always watching.. I thought Snowden was a traitor… now I don’t… he did a great service for mankind. Never thought I would see my once wonderful country of Canada being reduced to this nonsense… when u retire… u should be able to enjoy your golden yrs without this noose place on their necks by both govts to go & spend your time without worrying about your funds
Posting the report of a Brocker who would like to share their recent experience entering the US at Dulles Airport:
“The officer began by joking around with me about where I was going
and why, but then, as his eyes scanned the passport and saw my place
of birth, he leaned back and asked me what country was I a citizen
of. I said Canada. He then asked if I was an American citizen and I
said “No, I lost my citizenship in 197x”. There was a long pause
(don’t know if he was doing the math or searching his memory for the
relevant regulation) after which he said, “my, you’re really making
me think.” I joked and said “sorry for making you do that on such a
nice Friday afternoon.” He wished me well and that was that.”
Interesting.
I traveled by air to California this past month and when I went through US Customs at the airport here in Canada, the officer asked me if I was an American citizen (odd since he was holding my US Passport) and then said, “I suppose you are one of those permanent residents?” in a tone which made it clear that this was a very bad thing for an American to have done. I simply said “yes” and he waved me on.
Maybe he was having a bad morning or he was disappointed that he couldn’t take my fingerprints and scan my irises (and yes, that was chilling to watch as I stood waiting for my turn at the counter) but I think the memo has been issued and we are not going to simply be waved through without comment or query much longer.
@US_Person_Foreigner and ALL
I am confused as to how long the USA lets one stay with them until the non USA resident is considered “American Person” and would have to file taxes. I know it is 180 days within a 3 year period. But it is confusing how they work this out. There are many of border Canadians who go back and forth to shop and then some also go 6 months each year to snowbird in the USA. This should be made very clear to snowbirds and Canadians who cross border shop.
These folks do a pretty good job explaining the substantial presence test.
http://www.advisor.ca/tax/tax-news/residency-rules-snowbirds-need-to-know-65336
I’m wondering about cross-border activity as well. Being in a border town, I know several people with golf memberships in the US sister city, crossing at least twice a week to golf. Add in cross-border shopping, getiing gas weekly, vacations, US golf weekend vacations, and it all adds up pretty fast.
Then there are students who cross to attend a US post-secondary institution five times a week, but live in Canada.
Will these people become US persons for tax purposes?
The Mom, northernstar, others — probably (and each day counts if only for a few minutes of that day): http://www.moodysgartner.com/canadian-snowbirds-beware-2014-border-crossing-rules-increase-stakes-for-day-count/, but they can file IRS Form 8840 http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8840.pdf by the required date to claim a closer connection to Canada. Not to be judgmental (OK, I am being judgmental) when I ask why will Canadians support “Buy American” http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/buy-american-laws-creeping-back-to-canada-s-chagrin-1.2691743?
@northernstar & The Mom
Not a clue. I live so close to the border that I can either go to Montreal or into the US which we do all the time… Problem for my family… the snowbirds… this really restricts them from staying with their families in the US & have to really worry about the time frame. They help the US economy because they do spend loads of funds on the family & themselves when they are in the US.
@bubblebustin
Thank u for the info but its still flipping confusing to me.. but then… my head is full of this & trying to figure it out.
I do know that US & Canada are sharing the info… they were suppose to start 30 June but they started early cause I crossed customs a few days before & they didn’t even ask how long I was gone… which is the standard question…. I took the bus to Plattsburgh… u are now required to leave everything on the bus including your hand bag… taking only your id, tix, & wallet in. That freaked me out… I had to make sure very quickly that I take out all my money since that is scattered within my hand bag.. I felt naked without my hand bag… lol
Calgary411, I ask myself that buy American thing, since oneof those crossing the border very frequently is my husband. I have told him if I have gone through all I have to extricate myself from FATCA reporting, and he throws us back into it, I will kill him. Now, I wouldn’t really kill him, but he would be a very unhappy camper.
USPF, THAT really bothers me, the handbag on the bus bit. Like not being able to take my keys and cell phone into their prison-like consulate to renounce.
@bubblebustin
excellent clear article. It will be sent to all my Canadian friends..
and also I will be better informed to explain the requirements. .
@The Mom
I have been to China on holidays before… never had to jump the hoops like I do when I cross US customs or go into US gov’t offices. I had to go with a relative to a US gov’t office in the US… had to empty & x-ray everything… I had contraband it seems… a nail clipper & a very tiny pair of scissors to cut thread in a sewing kit… The most damage it could do is give u a minor paper cut… if that… since the file didn’t file.. scissors barely cut thread… forgotten in my bag… When we cross customs once… my sister had an expensive pair of tweezers… they took it… I thought she was going jump over & grab it back…
CBC radio just aired an interview with a professor at a military college in which it was stated that border personnel would have added information on people crossing the border, including information on people with “tax issues”.