What we had to say being censored at ExpatForum.com led us to form the Isaac Brock Society!
They have now posted information from American Citizens Abroad. Are they waking up?
American tax officials accused of targeting expats
The complete ACA letter referred to is ACA Final Letter to Treasury-IRS, July 19, 2013.
My comment there is awaiting moderation. That forum COULD have been a place to alert expats around the globe just at a time when it most was needed. Why there was such offence taken at those who felt they had no choice but, to renounce is beyond me.
This is indeed bittersweet for those of us who, two years ago, were posting warnings on ExpatForum and were being censored for doing so. That in fact is what led to the formation of the Isaac Brock Society website, as at least a dozen of us (perhaps many more, depending on identity changes) can attest.
I wonder if it is too much to hope for an apology from the administrator and moderators on that website? I’m not holding my breath, though.
We told you so, ExpatForum. You know who you are, of whom we speak …
I’m not posting this on ExpatForum. I cancelled my registration more than a year and a half ago, and I’m not re-registering on their site and boosting their numbers just to make a point. Not worth the bother. I hope they publish what Atticus said; I can just imagine what the comment says …
American Citizens Abroad’s recent letter to several members of Congress referred to can be read in its entirety on their website — along with some other recent good information / links: http://americansabroad.org/.
Shubert, I tried not to go after them too harshly in order to encourage them to keep talking about this. Why? Because so many people still do not get it. They are hapless lambs to the slaughter. Many still don’t know about it so if they can be encouraged to allow that discussion then more power to them. I won’t go back there either though. No need. I have Brock and Maple Sandbox and that is FAR better to me. Also, they carefully did not mention the Occupy article and it is on the ACA pages. They cherry picked the information they did give. Same old, same old.
They have made this post as if they just discovered the issue and have taken credit for alerting others when the information rich Brock website isn’t mentioned. If they had an ounce of credibility they would direct people over here but, mentioning other sites there is prohibited. That forum is money driven. It’s clear to me they don’t really care about the lions den expat families going into, green card holders and accidentals. It is shameful they chased off anyone trying to help others through this insufferable situation.
I ‘d been checking that site periodically. For about a year now, they’ve been again allowing threads and comments about how to renounce/relinquish on their site. Then, about a month ago, it was sold – to a Canadian company.
Even if they hadn’t censored us, we needed to start an independent in-depth site/on-line community.
I think I found IB, Maple Sandbox, and the expat forum at the same time. I’ve never been a fan of the latter, as the attitude seems to be shut up and comply. I am not Borg, resistance is not futile.
Apology? Good luck on that. LOL
All I can say, is well, well, well……….we told you so. I would consider going back if I thought it would serve the same purpose and that we would not automatically be told to shut up. Not sure though. wait and see?
What they left up from us is still there. I get quite a kick out of seeing underneath Petros’ name “Banned!”
And that the subtitle for the Expat Tax Forum indicates “for ALL Expats.” Really?
Very interesting ACA site. I find with many of these websites that they do not cover all the problems of FATCA or are contrary to other websites and the requirements are confusing to many. Many of them look at only the forms and compliance and seem to be run by tax consultants.
IBS covers FATCA the best. It gives me the whole picture. It is very personal.
I have friends who came up to Canada or gone to Europe who never filed US income taxes…They thought they did not have to if they did not make the dollar income amount that had Americans abroad to pay taxes on. I know of one American who has been here for 50 years. and has not filed one US income tax report since coming to Canada, yet she gets a VA cheque for her deceased husband’s army service in Korea every month.. She is not a Cdn citizen, just a permanent resident. She has a US passport. She has a small property here and a small property in the US. Children in the US and in Canada. I know other who are not Cdn citizens but permanent residents for a long time and they are getting US social security cheques but not filing US income taxes. Most of these are not computer savvy. Many don’t pay attention to news, reading, radio or TV.. They are very simple people. They did not come to evade taxes. Romance, Viet Nam, Bears, friends, jobs brought them here.. When I talk about FATCA they do not believe me.
It is a very big mess.
I looked up Costa Rico and FATCA today, knowing that lots of Americans go to live there, permanently.
I found these links.
Clarification on FATCA for U.S. Citizens Living in Costa Rica
http://news.co.cr/clarification-on-fatca-for-u-s-citizens-living-in-costa-rica/24933/
Should U.S. Expats in Costa Rica Give Up Their Citizenship?
http://news.co.cr/should-u-s-expats-in-costa-rica-give-up-their-citizenship/24831/
Comments on the link above Seem to show that many there don’t understand the problems and requirements.
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=700603369965770
I do find so much hostility on American blogs /websites toward Americans abroad relating to FATCA..Too many we are all rich tax evaders and not appreciative of our USA.
I found this article very very scary It gives examples of the problems American abroad face filing their taxes.
http://taxanalysts.com/www/features.nsf/Articles/8E6965DFA3441ADF85257BAA0048E526?OpenDocument
Analysis: The Personal Impact of Offshore Enforcement
by Marie Sapirie
I wonder if any Americans have become so scared that they committed suicide over FATCA.
I never had any dealings with them, but once was a member of the “Americans in Canada” Facebook group until they banned me for not wanting to be an apologist for the US. They also appear to be coming around too, I discovered last time got ahold of my husband’s ipad to check. Others on Fb may want to weigh in there too but beware of the gatekeepers.
Although not vindicated, it must be nice to see the ExpatForum come around.
What I like about IBS is the range of situations, opinions, and peoples’ chosen responses to the situation. Must comply, want to comply, maybe I’ll comply, not a hope in hell I’ll comply. Far, far better for both educational purposes, and discussion.
I like Maple Sandbox, too, just haven’t commented there.
@northerstar, re;
“…I wonder if any Americans have become so scared that they committed suicide over FATCA…”
Even if we don’t know of any, the IRS has big red stains on its hands for the prolonged injury, suffering, anxiety, fear and depression it has needlessly subjected those of us abroad to through its threats, intransigence and caprices. That is in addition to actively preventing us from benefiting from our own home government grants, and tax-free savings opportunities – which we paid for with our own home country taxes, blocking us from legitimate future financial planning, eating into our legal post-tax funds to pay ridiculous sums for US tax and legal fees, and taking money away from our children and dependents with disabilities through taxing their RDSPs and disability grants. They tax unemployment (and probably maternity benefits) which also came from our home country taxes and non-US treasuries. This is the action of a predator and parasite – feeding off the fruits produced in and by other countries.
We are not criminals. The US would not subject residents to this treatment if they were non-filers who owed zero US taxes. They would not treat residents this way if they only owed small sums. It is all about having non-US assets – though they are legal, may generate little or zero interest, and primarily originated in our already taxed wages. The US draconian and confiscatory treatment they prescribe for our ‘foreign’ accounts has not abated one whit. Note that the Streamlined program has now been around for one year. No change or clarification to the instructions. No further explanations, no further easing of the requirements in order to recognize that we must have local ‘foreign’ accounts to live a normal life. They still send the same June 2011 scary letter to those they are proactively encouraging to opt out of OVDI and into the Streamlined program. They haven’t bothered to change that procedure and the mandatory threatening letter with two pages of potential penalties – which was crafted more than a year before Streamlined even existed.
Talk about concrete evidence of continued bad faith.
How many people are still stuck in the OVD (and Streamlined?) programs? That is what came of trying to meet the IRS demands only in the method that they threatened people into using.
There is a good reason why the IRM has a specific section on what the IRS agents should do if someone mentions self harm.
IBS certainly has me totally informed, more than the Chief Consulate officers in Vancouver. But most Americans abroad are totally ignorant about recent changes in US tax policy and FATCA. When I was standing in line yesterday for renunciation, I asked a young (mid-20ies) guy ahead of me what he was doing. Renewing his US passport, just a routine thing he said. Even though he has lived in Canada since age 4 and had a Canada passport in hand as well. I asked him why he was renewing it, he said just a matter of due course. I said do you know as a US citizen abroad that FATCA will soon be monitoring his bank accounts. He had never heard of this, and last I saw of him he went out the door without applying for a passport renewal. I should have gotten his email address so he can be more informed via IBS. Again, this is the 99% of Americans abroad who don’t know the tree that will fall on their head.
@badger
IRM is internal revenue manual? I am curious what it says in regards to if one threatens self harm.
How I wish I had the hindsight when I came to Canada to have become a Canadian citizen the first moment I was eligible and immediately asked for my CLN from the USA. The last 2 years I have been through so much stress and worry. I worry for my AP friends as well. I have become to actually hate the USA now..
@northernstar
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-001-003.html
Suicide Threat Procedures:
5.1.3.4.3.2.2 (06-01-2010)
@kermitzii
I agree with what you wrote. I was informed about FATCA and what to do by IBS. I know of two friends who became citizens in 1973 and a few months ago went to the Ottawa counsel, They had to go to 2 appointments. Luckily before the 2nd one after doing their back taxes and FBUR they found out on their own they just needed to relinquish. They saved $450 each.
When I went for my CLN in July the Toronto counsel person said I was renouncing. I politely said I did relinquish in 1993 when I became Canadian citizen. I was there to apply for my CLN.
I met a woman who also there when I was. She became a
Canadian citizen in the 80s. She was told by the us counsel she had to renounce. She gave them her back taxes and FBUR and $450. She was a bit upset when I told she did not have to do that. I am hoping the counsel is not going to hold up my cln for telling her as she was going after me. She told me there are a lot of US persons in her area that are afraid to come out.
A friend I know who is a snowbird never heard of FATCA. He is retired and was thinking of marrying american woman. I told him about it so that he can look into on his own.
We all had been driving along not realizing that we are heading to a very dangerous zone that will affect our lives with something we never expected. FATCA was like getting a punch in the gut.
@bubblebustin
Thank you. Anyone who is serious is going to do it quietly and not warn an IRS agent.
There is one important good thing about the tax section on Expat Forum. There is the usual stream of clueless noobs who have their OMG moment about not having filed US taxes. On some other forums you’ll find the sharks who whip the noob into a state of fear with tales of enormous penalties and prison sentences and encourage them sign up for the OVDI or a 4-5 figure filing frenzy orchestrated by them. But on Expat Forum, Bev Deforges calms them down and advises them how to do a simple DIY quiet file. We haven’t seen how this will all play out, but my feeling is that this is the best advice that can be given to these noobs. We might want people to get outraged and join the campaign, but most expats just want to deal with it and move on.
@northernstar, re; “… The last 2 years I have been through so much stress and worry. ……. I have become to actually hate the USA now…..”
You are in good company. I am sure that the numbers who would echo your comments have and are growing exponentially. The US has seen to that. They couldn’t have made that more certain if they had tried.
Perhaps they were trying – or they are just criminally indifferent and also stupid.
@badger
I have changed my thinking since 2009. I was in Toronto on the day Obama was inaugurated. I stumbled on Democrats Abroad party around the corner where my son lived . I had my picture taken in front of a BO cardboard cutout with a toast glass with a big smile. I had such hope for the the USA after 8 years of W.
My brother hates Obama because BO is black. Now I find myself with such disappointed feelings on BO, verging in such distrust. I also have developed distrust in my Canadian government. What a difference 4 years make.
@Johnson, I agree that Bev Forges over there seems quite sensible.
Johnson and monalisa,
I agree that Bev Deforges was the voice of reason at expatforum.com. However, not everyone — not you, monalisa and certainly not me — could do a “simple” DIY quiet file. For those that can do this, bravo. To give responsible advice, Bev also needs to completely inform about Forms 8938, 8891, 3520, 3520A, 8621, etc., etc. And, of course, FBAR, and the US penalties if these are not properly filed. She will likely not be discussing 8854 as most of her advice will be to those who do not intend to expatriate from the US but to continue, year after year, the complexity (and expense for professional help) if they do not qualify for the simple DIY yearly filing. Of course, I have not tuned in to expatforum.com since I was banned from expatforum.com — Bev may be providing all of this complete and responsible advice.
My comment there is still awaiting moderation. It is Sunday though so perhaps no one moderates on the week ends. As far as quiet filing goes, I’ve been advised not to do that though I really want to. If I go into Stream lined I will be deemed “high risk” because they owe me a refund for one year. I don’t want to be deemed “high risk” for heavens sakes. I also don’t wish to be accessed penalties for not filing on zero income when IRS themselves told me I did not “meet the requirement to have to file” for every other year. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
I think that the US tax return for most expats would be complex with many forms if it was done correctly. Bev is, in effect, advising newbies to file a simplified approximation to this complex return. Now if the newbie starts doing the research or talks to a pro, then they will discover our world of pain. But if they just report their salary and bank interest and use FEIE, then they will send in a simple return showing zero owed and go back to enjoying life.
Now you might say “what if the IRS looks at this more closely – won’t they get in trouble?”. Well that now seems quite unlikely to happen. Even if it did, I think they would still be in better shape than if they hadn’t filed at all. I don’t think the IRS has the resources to do too many complex audits of people who don’t make much money or owe much, if any, US taxes. If and when FATCA starts revealing expats or passports get tied to tax returns, these simple filers will very likely be fine. Certainly they will sleep better in the mean time.
Good points, Johnson. Wish we had a crystal ball.