87 thoughts on “Renouncing U.S. Citizenship – Second thoughts”

1. I renounced more than a year ago and my life has not changed one iota. The sole exception, of course, is that I no longer have the unfairness of US tax policy gnawing at my brain. Absolutely no regrets!.

2. I would advise anyone with sufficient net worth to be considered “covered” AGAINST expatriating.

   Please do not for an instant think I am any less disgusted with what the United States has devolved to than anyone else here. The America I grew up in doesn’t exist any more, and the present-day citizens of the United States can’t seem to be bothered to interrupt their American Idol viewing schedule to take an interest in the fact their country is falling apart around them.

   Moving out of the United States is the best decision I ever made. But the sad, unfortunate truth is that those of us who complied with every law, paid every tax due, and asserted our legal right of expatriation are being treated like criminals, and I don’t think it will end any time soon. We make a convenient scapegoat for politicians like Schumer, Casey and Reed, who seek to vilify us to distract attention from the numerous failures of the Government that have caused the nation’s fabric to begin to fall apart at the seams. There is no doubt in my mind that this EX-PATRIOT nonsense will eventually pass, and we will be forever forbidden from visiting our aging parents in their final days. Meanwhile, criminals who violated U.S. immigration laws and who have been working in the country for decades without paying a penny in taxes (illegal immigrants) are likely to be granted immunity and a fast-track path to citizenship. The irony is unreal.

   Expatriation simply doesn’t accomplish anything useful. True, the burdens on American citizens living abroad are extraordinary, and just opening a bank account in another country is next to impossible for anyone suffering the disadvantage of holding a U.S.passport. But the burdens that are about to be placed on “covered expatriates” are much worse.

   The bottom line is this: If you were born an American citizen, your country has absolutely no intention of respecting your rights or its own laws. You will be demonized, vilified, and scapegoated as a tax cheat if you assert your right of expatriation, regardless of your actual reasons for leaving.

   I relinquished in 2009, and regret the decision now. My convictions about why I wanted nothing more to do with a country that has lost its moral compass have not changed. But I grossly underestimated my former government’s willingness to ignore its own laws and Constitution, and to make me their scapegoat.

   My advice to anyone with sufficient net worth to be considered “covered” is simple: Don’t do it. You’re going to be treated like a criminal for the rest of your life, and it’s just not worth it.

3. Why is this person writing this?
   “it seems so hard to find a place that is both open to immigrants and that offers me some of the opportunity I definitely experienced in the US”

   I feel that all of us here on Brock have left the USA long ago or never been in it..and our reasons renouncing is because we want to continue living where we reside and not have the paperwork or threats that an overseas American person is getting with FATCA

   .I do find this strange.
   Just why is this person looking for a place . I do not understand this at all.

4. @northernstar

   It may be true that MOST participants here have lived outside the USA for decades, but not everyone.

   I definitely relate to what this person is experiencing. What you may not realize, not having lived “state side” yourself, is just how extraordinary the deterioration of rule of law and economic opportunity has been in the last 10 years.

   When I left, it was with a confident attitude that “The U.S. has gone down the toilet, and I’m sure I’ll have no problem finding a better place to live”. I failed to appreciate that the U.S. truly was in a class of its own for most of my lifetime. There literally is no other country on the planet that offers the freedom, opportunity, and civil liberty the USA used to offer.

   What I’ve realized after leaving is that although the U.S. nothing like its former self, and still deteriorating rapidly, it’s about even now with other countries in terms of what it has to offer. It sounds to me like this person left, as I did, expecting to be able to find what the USA used to offer when we were kids elsewhere. I’ve traveled the entire globe, and it doesn’t exist. You can find other places, including Canada, which are far more stable than the USA and not suffering the USA’s current rapid deterioration. But you can’t find what we had in the good old U.S. of A. It simply doesn’t exist.

5. It also puzzles me why anyone would regret giving up US citizenship, except for any future policy that would prevent one from visiting family. The US has seriously lost its way on so many fronts, and simply put is not the country it claims to be and likely never will be. It’s treatment of those who live and work in other countries is frankly despicable and grossly unfair. There seems to be no interest in paying attention to detail and understanding the impact of FATCA on so many innocent and good people. So many people, including citizens are treated so badly by the US in so many areas it is unbelievable. The practice of its stated values is wanting in so many areas. Just look at the way the on the ground military are recruited and how they are treated after serving. Lots of lip service and clapping for the military but little real consideration or help for them in their daily lives upon their return. My, spouse is in the process of relinquishing. She has lived in Canada for 43 years and her values are more aligned with those of Canada. I have been a Canadian my entire life. Apart from family connections, I could not conceive of mourning the loss of citizenship of such a country. I seriously thought of moving to the Us to practice my profession in the early 70s. I am sure glad I did not. While Canada is not perfect, it is away out in front of the USA in so many areas with which we are all familiar.

6. @Bruce, and @Political Expat, I have mixed feelings. Like Bruce, I have found that my life hasn’t changed at all where I live, apart from no longer having to worry about the burdensome compliance requirements. It will be a HUGE relief to no longer have to be budgeting thousands each year to pay an accountant to file a tax return of over 100 pages long. It will be a huge relief to no longer have to declare virtually all my assets and accounts to the US government each year. It will be a relief to no longer have to worry about my retirement planning.

   But I share Political Expat’s concerns about what the future could hold. I share his fear that the US is going to want retribution; if they can’t hit us with fines, I could see them making it much more difficult to visit the States which is in some ways an even crueler punishment. Part of me admittedly regrets that I renounced because of these new uncertainties.

   I wouldn’t even put it past Congress to try to pass punitive legislation to retroactively restore our US personhood, at least for tax purposes. At the very least, I could see them passing laws so that former US Persons are more easily entrapped back into US taxation. Examples include significantly reducing the number of qualifying days allowed to be spent in the US before again being subjected to US taxation; having our visa waivers automatically revoked and thus having to separately apply for a visa which could involve having to jump through many hoops; a vindictive tax of perhaps 30% imposed on any US-sourced inheritance.

   I hope I’m wrong…I earnestly hope they will see sense and give us the option to resume our citizenship or at least acquire a residence visa if we so desired… After all, there may be some of us who may wish to be able to return to care for elderly relatives.

   It would have been burdensome to have to continue budgeting up to $5,000 each year to stay compliant but could have learned to absorb the cost if it were a matter of life or death. Money is NOT everything. But I decided to leave because I was so utterly pissed off with how things are going now. I did it as a matter of principle as well as act of self-preservation. But it’s true that part of me regrets it…It’s rather like a nasty divorce. No turning back.

   I would warn my niece to think twice before doing like I did and going abroad to study and meet a foreigner and wind up settling abroad. I don’t believe in regrets but can now see how my past decisions led to complexities that I can no longer fully unravel which is why I concluded I could no longer realistically afford to hold both passports…but it was nonetheless a heartbreaking decision. It’s wrong though that we have to undergo all this torture.

   I have in fact fallen out with one friend who was disgusted with my decision and deems me a ‘traitor’. My family and especially my mother and aunt have been understanding but I have to accept that many will not be and that’s just how it its. :'(

7. Leaving the US in the 1960s and relinquishing my U.S. citizenship when I became a Canadian citizen in the 1970s are two of the best life decisions that I have made. I have absolutely no regrets about those. I am happy that I did not remain trapped inside the mirrored propaganda bubble of the United States. There is a world out here that we can see from Canada but that most U.S. residents are only dimly aware of.

8. @PoliticalXpat as a renouncer and a covered expat I would agree that only if you can live with the idea of never returning to the United States should you renounce, I knew the moment I renounced I would never likely return to the United States again, if you can’t stomach this idea don’t renounce.

9. No two people are in the same situation. We each need to weigh up all our personal pluses and minuses, and then… it’s a judgment call. Moving to the (generally) beautiful, tolerant, decent and open-minded country where I have lived for very nearly 40 years, and where I have been fortunate to be able to work hard to build a full and good life has been a wonderful privilege. Renouncing my US citizenship was therefore an obvious and straightforward choice. But of course it won’t be so, or necessarily even possible, for everybody. Nobody changes citizenship on a whim. For many decent and sincere people, there is tremendous heartache and soul-searching these days on this issue; the moronic and offensive rhetoric about tax evasion and patriotism is utterly ludicrous. The best support any of us can have is what is generously and gratefully shared with our personal and virtual networks (like this one).

10. My husband and I entered OVDI having it in mind that we would eventually and cleanly renounce US citizenship without tax issues, and like many others surrendered a significant amount of retirement savings to the US Treasury in doing so. We were not in the position to ostrich or cut ties with the US, so we as Phil Hodgen says, “walked straight into the shit storm” in order to free ourselves and preserve our way of life. Or so we had hoped.

    This surge in renunciations is just the tip of the iceberg. The US government is either going to try to stem the flow or they won’t. If they do, they’ll attempt to resolve the ‘problem’ with either a stick or a carrot. That’s the big unknown and a worry to me.

    Should it choose a stick, renouncing may paradoxically end up costing my husband and me what we intended to preserve by choosing the route we did in order to renounce US citizenship. The rest I’d like to say is unprintable.

11. In navigating the morass of uncertainties that accompanies the parlous status not enjoyed by extraterritorial US persons, any prudent actor will calculate the endgame of renunciation as including the fallback possibility of permanent no-go. No tears here for second-thoughters. Do the drudgery. Chop the knot. Or not. Sauve qui peut.

12. @USCitizenAbroad

    “I left my marriage for a variety of reasons (a year ago) and am feeling more and more like did I make a mistake. I think things are horrible with my spouse but it seems so hard to find a someone who will take me, and that offers me what I definitely experienced in my marriage. My family wants me to go back so much, but I really am opposed to what my former spouse says and does. But I am really struggling with doubts and fighting depression over my situation.”

    Sounds like your friend should have stayed and worked on their ‘marriage’ before jumping into a rebound relationship.

13. If you are going out into the wide world looking for the USA seemed to be before 9/11, you might end up disappointed. And it’s a good thing to remember that the supposed freedoms, opportunities and affluence have been a mirage for longer than the last decade and really only open to a smaller than Americans would like to admit percentage of their society.

    You are not going to find Bill Clinton’s America or Ronald Reagan’s anywhere anyway.

    But it sounds like this person might be experiencing a lack of family and friends support, and we shouldn’t underestimate how difficult it is to do something when the main people in your life are opposed.

    And emigration, becoming an immigrant in another country is daunting for lot of people, which is why so many people simply stay where they are even when it’s not the best option or fit.

    But I don’t know what I would tell someone who regrets it other than “go to a consulate and try to see if it can be undone”. If it’s making someone that unhappy and they have no close support, a Internet group of virtual people is hardly gone to change that.

    I am not happy about relinquishing but mostly because I feel like I am being pushed off a plank and I hate to be pushed into anything. However, I recognize that one cannot serve two masters in terms of citizenship as things currently stand in the world. Perhaps someday this will change but probably not soon. I could be a very old woman or dead, frankly, before the world settles down again and the sun finally sets on Empire America.

    Buyer’s remorse is a bitch. You learn to deal or you figure a way out of the sale. That’s the best I can do advice wise.

14. “Should there be a support group for those who have renounced U.S. citizenship?”. IBS *is* a support group for people in all stages of renunciation or not renouncing but learning about other things like OVDI (bubblebustin). This is my week of expatriation, the highlight is high noon Friday. I agree with previous comments that the USA is not the country I left almost 30 years ago, and that other countries have become far better in terms of infrastructure, personal freedom, and economic opportunities. Things will be entirely same for me the next week, except I will bask in the pureness of being only Canadian.

15. The situation this person finds him/herself in is likely the reason those in charge of policy of renunciations and relinquishments at the Consulate in Vancouver, BC still require two appointments, time to ‘think about it.’ In this case, it is a pity that someone at the consulate involved did not pick up on some hesitation on this person’s part — or that the person was not ready to make a lasting decision — again, based on what drives the US, which is a level of fear that we all feel.

    I feel nothing but complete relief at my renunciation and would never reconsider; I do daily feel some amount of fear for my son, entrapped into ‘supposed’ US citizenship. I cannot bend to the tactics of the US. I think the majority of us decisively knew what we wanted with our relinquishments or renunciations and, rightly, needed only one appointment. We have not looked back. Family pressure / US opportunity seem to play a big role in the regret for this person. More details would be helpful and to know what country this person is in. Perhaps there could be support from someone (or a few someone’s here).

16. As someone born dual; with no American ancestry; non-compliant due to ignorance of US citizenship-based taxation; nearing retirement age; not willing to spend $ and risk penalties on hard earned savings to become tax compliant; and pissed as hell that USA expects me to bend over, the only thing I regret is not knowing I should have renounced years ago.

17. I know that not everyone has the same reason for renouncing their US citizenship. I know my choice was because of my long time residency in Canada and becoming a Canadian citizen 33 years ago. What I find interesting is that I did this knowing that I committed and expatriating act and I thought I gave up US citizenship. Ten years later I found out that wasn’t the case and then in 2011 I’m told I’m a tax criminal. I lived so long believing I was no longer a US Citizen it really didn’t matter to me to renounce. Although my parents originally came to Canada for a job I’m not sure they expected to stay the rest of their lives. Now they would never return and the same goes for me, but it’s not because there is something about the United States I despise, well maybe FATCA, but it’s because I am Canadian. To renounce US citizenship was just a final step in recognizing that I could not be fully Canadian. If you are considering renouncing US citizenship, please think long and hard about where you live and the potential fallout of your decision.

18. I can see the problem with coming to the decision to relinquish/renounce;
    – for people who are not entirely established and comfortable living permanently outside the US.
    – for people who have no family in the country where they are living, and all/most birth family are in the US
    – for people who are living outside the US – having followed a non-US spouse, but are not sure whether living ‘abroad’ is what they will want forever – or whether they might be choosing a marriage over their birth family.
    – for people who have left ailing or elderly family in the US that they may/will need to return and provide future care for – this is difficult even in the same city, much less separate countries.

    I understand that renouncing/relinquishing is not for everyone. Not all of us are duals born abroad, or longterm residents and citizens of Canada (i.e. in close proximity to US family and friends), or longterm residents and citizens ‘abroad’ in stable countries where we have been most of our lives.

    I can see that for some, deciding to renounce and to make their life ‘abroad’ permanent might be difficult or impossible.

    But the current US jihad against US citizens and ‘taxable persons’ who live ‘abroad’ has made it almost impossible to live a normal life outside the US and still retain US citizenship – unless you see that life abroad as temporary, and can sustain the US imposed costs and restraints and criminalization for a limited or temporary period – and plan accordingly. And of course never die abroad, save and invest where you live abroad, have US-status children abroad, marry abroad, be a co-signatory on a ‘foreign’ account abroad, take a voluntary or paid position that requires co-signatory powers on ‘foreign accounts’ abroad, have a mortgage abroad, etc. etc. Some of those events can be anticipated and planned for, and some cannot.

19. WhiteKat says
    September 2, 2013 at 8:44 pm
    “As someone born dual; with no American ancestry; non-compliant due to ignorance of US citizenship-based taxation; nearing retirement age; not willing to spend $ and risk penalties on hard earned savings to become tax compliant; and pissed as hell that USA expects me to bend over, the only thing I regret is not knowing I should have renounced years ago.”

    Here, here!!

    While I can understand the remorse of a former homelander in this situation, I can’t seem to find any personal reasons for being remorseful of my forced renunciation of my imposed US citizenship.

    Quite frankly, I don’t find the US to have changed much at all, over the past 30 years of my adult life. Perhaps that’s because of my perspective as someone never a part of the “in” crowd, but because I am (thankfully) a “foreigner”.

20. While true that America is not what it used to be, I think it has to be stated that America does not just see the expats as a financial opportunity – but the whole rest of the world as that. I dont know when it started, but I remember being astounded when I heard that doctors were having to cowtow to the insurance companies who gained all the power when they realized they were footing the bills. All of America is a voracious business and maybe that goes hand in hand with the word “freedom”, I dont know? But even healthcare in America is run as a business for profit, not a service to it`s people which should be non-profit.
    America treats everybody as fair prey, not just expats.
    This will not change because in order to do so, the very core of the system and mentality would have to change.

21. @Badger and @Yogagirl, I will always regret that I hadn’t foreseen all the complications I was creating by going native without at least paying for financial advice. In retrospect, if I had my life to live over again, I don’t even know if I would have chosen to marry my spouse and live in England.

    I renounced somewhat in haste; and though I will obviously be less burdened with all the tax compliance hassles and costs (and a small degree of ongoing double taxation in my case), I fear I may have sacrificed something intangible that I will never be able to get back.

    I was ‘pounds wise and pennies foolish’. The way I now see it, I will always regret that we hadn’t been willing to pay for sound financial planning advice. Of course it’s not fair to be so restricted in my retirement planning by the USA policies, but I’ve had to sacrifice my birthright in order to lead a normal life.

    Nevertheless, as much as I love Britain, I have to acknowledge that, an an immigrant with no family here apart from an aging husband, that I will always be an outsider. Perhaps it would have been different if I’d had children. But I came from a distinguished family and have admittedly gone from being a ‘somebody’ to a ‘nobody’ in an adopted country.

    I have rather ironically received more criticism from people in the UK than in America, perhaps because they think I ‘sold out’ for expediency. In my heart I would like to be fully British but realize I will always be an American.

    I regret that I tried to be prudent and thus created complexities by investing in local mutual funds and a pension plan. l have lost so much in double taxes, accounting fees and assets moved into my husband’s name that I would have been better off just keeping it all in a simple certificate of deposit.

    I could have then much more easily retained my US citizenship because my compliance burdens would have been manageable. So I have had to give up a large part of myself to survive. I don’t like many aspects of America but it is what I am; I can no longer be any comfort to my parents in their old age, nor can I go home to die when my time eventually comes. And like we all dread, we will always have to face the very real possibility that laws may eventually be passed to even permit short visits…

    However, in spite of my regrets about the past, I realise I can not change it. Given the mess I’d unintentionally created, I am sure that I didn’t realistically have any other option but to renounce. I don’t believe in regrets either; I agree with Calgary that this is not my fault, as such, it’s just life. I feel increasingly philosophical and believe I’ve just got to move forward and make the most of what remains of my life here.

22. I left the US as a young man in the early 70s and became a Canadian citizen as soon as I met the residency requirements. At the time I did that I was made to understand I was losing my US Citizenship by becoming Canadian. I was, at the time quite happy to give up my US citizenship as I believed I was definitely ‘trading up’. Now decades later, I am quite sure I ‘traded up’ and I don’t have the slightest regret. In fact I view my CLN as one of the most valuable documents I have, perhaps second only to my Canadian Citizenship Certificate.

    Having said that, I realize everyone has their own perspective and circumstances. I however, have no second thoughts about my decision at all.

23. Sorry, I meant to say that I had been ‘pennies wise but pounds foolish’ and that I fear that laws may be passed that could mean NOT even being allowed to make short visits.

24. Personally, I have no regrets whatsoever about going abroad, nor about renouncing my US citizenship. If I had to decide again given the same circumstances, I would not change a single thing. It’s regrettable what the USA has come to be, but unlike PoliticalXpat, I don’t believe it ever really lived up to its own propaganda about freedom, democracy and civil liberties, and it certainly doesn’t now. There are – and have been – better places in the world to live than in the USA.

    For young people considering leaving the USA today, I would advise them to inform themselves before going abroad and make a plan to either 1) stay a couple of years and go back to the USA before establishing family and financial ties or 2) make definite plans to renounce US citizenship as soon as possible. As far as I’m concerned, being a US expatriate is no longer a viable option for the long-term.

25. I renounced last week and so far, so good. 😉

    I can’t imagine Congress actually going so far as to pass spiteful and discriminatory laws aimed at punishing former US Persons in general. When you renounce, you become wholly and solely Canadian, French, Brazilian, or whatever. Does the status of “former US Person” exist legally outside the US? If the US decrees it, will all other countries just accept that countries have the right to punish their former citizens for life? It seems like a huge case of national origin discrimination to me. Do other countries vilify their citizens when they immigrate to the US?

    Obviously, the various Congresspeople are just trying to get re-elected by appearing to solve the country’s problems, using the invisible and mostly defenseless scapegoat that is (are?) Americans abroad. “Oh look, we’re in this mess because those people abroad weren’t’ paying their taxes! Let’s get ’em!” As was mentioned above, this allows them to ignore the real causes, and unite against a simplistic common cause, because of course, everybody hates a tax cheat.

    But back to the topic of this post, if there are those that need help processing their decision, I think we should support that. For Americans, some countries are easier to feel at home in than others. I’m in Europe, but I’d be willing to bet it’s not so hard to feel at home in Canada.

    I’m just beginning to feel relief from renouncing, but last night I woke up feeling just a bit stranded. I suppose that goes with the territory.